eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

Hi guys,

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-notgelan...item1c3ff5bb4e

Regards, Franck.

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

Eh eh eh eh!

And if I'm right .... (Of course I am! :))
http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=3390

Regards, Franck.

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

Franck, this... find of yours in my opinion is nothing short of spectacular. It shows the belly-landed Bf109F-2* of Stab/JG27 coded "Double Chevron and bars" sporting the elusive Stab/JG27 or inded JG27 emblem. As far as I can tell, this is the first such photo. Never seen before!

I will try to decipher the scene. The first photo (given in your post No.2) shows the apparently recently belly-landed aircraft camouflaged by wooden planks so it cannot be seen from the air. The soldier standing next to it appears to be Russian. If so, the scene might have been captured on the first day of Operation Barbarossa (i.e., 22 June 1941), and the Stab/JG27 aircraft belonged to the then Kommodore, Major Wolfgang Schellmann, who was captured, interrogated and later executed by the NKVD.

The second photo (post No.1) shows the scene when the fast advancing German Army had already reached the aircraft and secured the scene by posting a guard. The photo appears slightly overexposed so what appears to be snow is really something else.

Any corrections or contributions to the above is welcome.

Regards,
Sinisa

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

Sinisa, the 2nd photo in post #1 show naked trees without leaves and snow remaining in patches on the ground while in post #2 the trees have a foliage and no snow visible. The Bf109F clearly has a yellow tail band and I am almost sure the wooden buildings are Russian. This doesn't make 22 June 1941 likely but rather early spring in 1942 somewhere in the USSR.

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

Göran, the first snow, if indeed that is the snow what we are seeing here, in Russia of 1941 fell in early October, but it did thaw away shortly afterwards. Therefore the photo in post No.1 might have been taken around that time.

As for your suggestion that the photo was more likely taken in the spring of 1942, that I doubt, because by that time Stab/JG27 was already deployed to North Africa along with all of its Gruppen. Or you are suggesting perhaps that this was not the Stab/JG27 aircraft? Or that the aircraft recovery was delayed until the spring of 1942?

What would be your interpretation of these two photos?

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

Hi, all

Sidney - according to my los record the aircraft flown by Schellmann June 22nd 1941 was a Bf 109E-7, WNr 4189.

And according to my loss records ALL Bf 109s from JG 27 lost on June 22nd was Bf 109E - while the aircraft depicted clearly is a Bf 109F.

So I believe we will have to find another candidate for this one.



Regards,
Andreas B

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

Andreas,

I do not have my books at hand. Information taken from here http://ww2.dk/air/jagd/jg27.htm is what led me to believe that Stab/JG27 was equipped with the Bf109F aircraft shortly before Operation Barbarossa.
...
5.41-14.6.41; Werneuchen; Bf 109E/F
14.6.41-25.6.41; Sobolewo; Bf 109F
25.6.41 - 4.7.41; Wilna; Bf 109F
...

Now, if you are convinced that the above information is not accurate, than indeed we have to look for another candidate.

Regards,
Sinisa

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

Sidney, I am sure it is snow we see and not recently fallen "new snow" but what remains from a layer reduced by thaw. It is correct that the first snow came in October 1941 in Russia. It can be that the photo in post #2 was the first taken while the trees still had leaves and the one in post #1 taken later, after the snow came.....and melted away. I can't say for sure which unit the Bf109F belonged to but JG27 is of course a hot candidate. By the way, wasn't it so that Wolfgang Schellmann baled out of his stricken Bf109E-7 (W.Nr. 4189) <<+ after being rammed by a Russian I-153 biplane by Lt. Kuzmin of 127IAP/11SAD? So that rather nicely belly landed Bf109F is not Schellmann's Bf109E-7 which would also have not been in such good condition after hitting the ground pilotless. See Black Cross Red Star Vol.1 by Bergström & Mikhailov.
Br
Göran

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

Dear Göran, thank you for your kind thoughts. As stated above, I do not have my books at hand, so unfortunately I had to rely on the tertiary source of information (i.e., the internet) at present.

And, yes, thank you also for kindly pointing out that the belly-landed Bf109F could not have been the Bf109E-7. I would never guess it myself.

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

I better leave this subject now......

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

Hi, all

Strength returns for Stab JG 27 reveals the following:

21.06.2914 4/4 Bf 109E
28.06.1941 3/1 Bf 109E
05.07.1941 3/2 Bf 109E
12.07.1941 4/4 Bf 109E
19.07.1941 4/3 Bf 109E
26.07.1941 4/2 Bf 109E
02.08.1941 4/3 Bf 109E
09.08.1941 4/3 Bf 109E
16.08.1941 4/4 Bf 109E
23.08.1941 4/4 Bf 109E
30.08.1941 0/0 Bf 109E
06.09.1941 2/2 Bf 109E
13.09.1941 4/4 Bf 109E
20.09.1941 3/3 Bf 109E
27.09.1941 3/2 Bf 109E
04.10.1941 4/3 Bf 109
11.10.1941 4/3 Bf 109
18.10.1941 4/0 Bf 109F-4/trop comment: Umrüstung auf F4 trop in Döberitz
25.10.1941 4/0 Bf 109F-4/trop comment: Umrüstung in Döberitz
01.11.1941 4/0 Bf 109F-4/trop comment: Umrüstung auf F4 trop in Döberitz

During the period up until 11.10.1941 they were defined as subordinated to OST, no subordination for 18.10.1941 and 25.10.1941 - and the X (indicating X Fliegerkorps) from 01.11.1941.

So - I start to doubt that this is a Stab/JG 27 bird at all.

But there is of course the possibility that the Kommodore (which would have been Major Bernhard Woldenga) snatched himself a Bf 109F out of order... or even brought his 'personal' Bf 109F into the unit when he had to take over for Schellmann - anyone know from the top of their head which unit Woldenga was in before he returned to Stab/JG 27 - so I do not have to locate it in my papers?

You have this loss:

http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=160348

which could indicate that this happened.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

Hi, again.

Seems Woldenga came from the position as Kommodore of JG 77, but the Stab/JG 77 also flew Bf 109E apparently...

But he still could have used his connections I guess... or we are looking at a bird from the 50 - series (JG 51, JG 52 etc) - with a personal emblem resembling the one of Stab/JG 27

Thoughts, Göran??

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

This is the Bf 109F-4 WNr. 8419 from Stab/JG 52. The plane was crash landed by Ofw. Karl Munz from Stab I./JG 52 near Grodino on 8.Jan.42 - a similar photo with the same buildings in the background was published in Luftwaffe im Focus some time ago.

The emblem below the cabin is similar to that of III./JG 27, it’s not the Geschwader emblem of JG 27. This seems to be a personal add by Maj. Wilhelm Lessmann, who led JG 52 from 10.41 to 06.42. The emblem should remind him of his first command as Staffelkapitän of 1./JG 131 during 1937/38. This unit became later I./JG 130, I./JG 1 and finally III./JG 27.

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

Hello, Merlin!

Nicely spotted. I hope Axel will forgive me for adding a scan from the Luftwaffe im Focus issue 4 - showing this aircraft - and regard is as publicity for his excellent publication. If you are not a subscriber to it - start a subscription asap!

Case closed.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

Marvellous,

Same picture here:
http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=5050
source being http://www.me109.info/display-quelle.php?id=177

Not only LiF ... Axel will say nothing! :) Case closed effectively.

Thanks guys.

Regards, Franck.

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

I understand that the case is now considered to be all but closed. I would still like to add few notes if I may.

According to the map enclosed to Prien, Stemmer and others JFV der Deutschen LW, Part 6/I I believe, Stab/JG 52 and I./JG 52 were based at Rusa (that is in the proximity of the main Minsk – Moscow highway) between 4.11.1941 and 14.12.1941. Following the Red Army counter offensive of 5.12.1941, the aforementioned units left for Dugino (again, not far away from the highway), where they remained between 14.12.1941 and 20.01.1941

What happened during the aforementioned Red Army counter offensive is that the German Army fell back at places 150 – 200 km, which shortened their communication and supply lines, so it eventually managed to contain the counter offensive.

Now, the account of event states that on 8 January 1942 Ofw. Karl Munz of Stab I./JG52, while piloting the apparently Kommodore’s, Maj Wilhelm Lessmann, Bf 109 F-4, W.Nr. 8149 coded “Double Chevron and Bars”, was hit by the small calibre AA fire, which obliged him to make belly-landing at Grodino. Although wounded, he then managed to reach the German lines.

Now, according to the above Grodino is then supposed to be somewhere in the central Russia. The only reference on Grodino that I found was in John Weal’s book He 111 Kampfgeschwader on the Russian Front, where it reads…”… at the end of January (i.e., 1942) I./KG 4 was switched back to the Volkhov area (i.e., northern Russia) to support the German drive aimed at pinching off the Soviet offensive. One particularly successful mission was flown on the last day of the month, when its He 111s bombed the township of Grodino…” Needless to say, it was Stab/JG 27 and III./JG 27 based at Ljuban, Volkhov area, between 06.09 and 29.09.1941.

Furthermore, what bothers me about the eBay photo in post No.1 is the apparent presence of the unarmed German soldier guarding the aircraft, plus a number of wooden planks, possibly inscribed in Russian, as a warning to the local population to stay away from the aircraft. This indicates that the aircraft quite possibly belly landed on the German-held territory.

Is the other way around possible? According to the event account, the above aircraft belly-landed on the Russian-held territory. This would mean that it was effectively lost (i.e., 100%), because the German Army on the central section of the front managed to hold the line, albeit only just, after it fell back some 150-200 km, but it did not make any substantial recovery of the lost territory, and the front, more-or-less remain stable and static for many months (i.e., that is until the Battle of Rzhev, later the same year), while the German High Command shifted its attention to the southern sector of the Eastern Front. Therefore, the presence of the especially unarmed German soldier, if that was a German soldier of course, at the aircraft there is somewhat unlikely in the spring of 1942.

When I look at the Stab/JG 52 “Chevrons and bars” markings of late 1941, they look differently than those sported on this belly-landed Bf109F. The replacement of the JG 52 Geschwader emblem with apparently the Kommodore’s personal emblem is also hard to explain.

To try and conclude, perhaps we do have a Bf 109 F aircraft belly-landed at Grodino after all, it is just that it did not belong to JG 52.

As suggested, the case is now considered closed anyway. Or is it?

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

Merlin,

Are you sure of that?
Or is it just "seems" and "should"?? First, when reading you, I thought it was in LiF comments; but it's not.

Why no victory board on fin when his 13199 was updated in June 1942?
Any other photo of this "personnal emblem" and, by the way, Lessmann's machine(s) available?

Last: re-reading JFV Teil 1, I just have a question: When Jesau shield started to be I./JG 131 emblem? The only clear given date is in comments Under Wolenga machine's photo, i.e. Summer 1938 AND, last but not least, I./JG 131 started to receive Bf 109B in MAY 1938 ... Lessmann was already OFF this unit ... Unless you show us an Arado wearing the shield.

Regards, Franck.

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

Hi, all

Can w be sure that this was the aircraft of Major Wilhelm Lessmann, Kommodore of JG 52, or is it really the aircraft of Karl-Heinz Leesmann, the Gruppenkommandeur of I./JG 52?

The loss record does not indicate that the aircraft was from Stab/JG 52 (the rule for the loss records - yes I know there are omissions and errors with regards to this- would be to enter one line for the aircraft, and one for the pilot linking them by a comment (s.lfd.Nr.X) respectively)

Are there no contemporary photos of the aircraft of these unit commanders from this period?

(not in my library at the moment, so no access to the Prien Jagdwaffe book series just now)

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

A scan of the back-side of the photo, kindly provided by the seller. Can any of our German speaking colleagues decipher the hand-writing for the benefit of all of us?

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

As suggested by Göran (F19Gladiator) on the LEMB, the photo should be mirrored. My apology. It reads: "ein notgelandeter deutscher Jäger in ?aslovo"

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

David W. from the Falcon site has the machine correctly identified as Karl Munz's cracked up WNr. 8419. Compare to this photo.

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

Which Baslovo ??? "Near Grodino"??? :)
Any German loss list for 8419? Can't we start with that, please?

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

Bf 109F-4 8419 MUNZ, Ofw. Karl 60 Stab I. JG 52 schwarzes <<-+- 08-Jan-42 Reported lost due to infantry fire. Notlandung. Returned WIA. RK. VIII.Fl.Korps/Eins.Osten Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #4)-Vol.7; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IX.1, p.134; Fast, JG 52, IV, p.57; LW im Focus #4, p.9 photo bei Grodino 100% F

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

Thanx John

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

Hi, all

Just wondering about the Kennzeichen as reported in Prien. In the GenQu list the aircraft Kennzeichen is given as 'Winkel' only - I can see from the photo obviously that it was <<- + - , but still - the code points towards a Gruppenkommandeur or Kommodore - who was the 'owner' of this aircraft?

Also - the location is given as Gredine as far as I can decipher from the GenQu listing - the names on the eastern front are known to be notoriously badly spelled and it often seems to help to consider them as being onomatopoeia.

The location might well be Grodino. Maybe the farm is still there?

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

My guess from LEMB:

"I'd guess it was Maslovo (56°21'N, 34°31'E) near Rzhev. Roundabout 7km northeast form Maslovo existed an "Gridino" on the small river Darnya (roundabout 2-2,5 km northeast from Slinkino)."

Greetings
Rasmussen

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

Google street ... I don't believe it!!! :)

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

ouidjat, ouidjat ...

I've found 65 Gridinos in Russia. Your Gridino is the "Google street" - Gridino east from Moscov (55° 28' N, 39° 02' E), my Gridino is/was (it seems) an place near Rhzev (56° 23' N, 34° 36' E) --- without Google street :D

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

Ah ah ...
Indeed;

That's what I wanted to read from you: 65 Gridino and a Slinkino which is in Siberia NNW from Vladivostok without talking about a Maslovo, 170km East of Vitebsk (Bielorussia)

Hence we can find a Gridino Inside JG27 area as well another one Inside JG52 area....

More important is the German report indicating a single Winkel not <<-.

For me, until somebody proves - but really proves - I'm wrong, MUNZ loss report is giving a wrong WNr. ... But just a speculation; an educated speculation.

Bombing cited by Sidney is more consistant giving a Grodino in JG27 area...

As he said, too, looks like a non sense for a Geschwader Kdr wearing his -supposed - first emblem from I./JG131 and I can add;
Lessmann left I./JG 131 in March when the unit received its first Bf 109Bs in May and when the first documented picture of a Bf 109 wearing the Jesau shield was during the following summer; not on Arado 72. Therefore, most probably, no chance to have kept this emblem with him.

Last, and again, Lessmann machine was wearing his full score board on rudder during the following June of the said accident, why not before when MUNZ was supposed to have flown his machine??

Hence, again, the only logical - but just for me for the moment - explanation is that WNr. is wrong, well written, but wrong.

Best regards, Franck.

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

For your JG 27 - argumentation you need:

1.) not an Grodino but an Maslovo in the JG 27 area
2.) an proof that Stab/ JG 27 got Bf 109F- 4 before in Döberitz were given Bf 109F-4trop.

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

Post No.30, Item No.2: The following information was provided by Ralph Zimmer from the literature quoted in the assessment, as follows: "According to JFV vol 6-1, p. 158, Stab/JG27 had Bf109F-2 in addition to Bf109Es from June 1941 onwards. From the end of August or the beginning of September the Stab had Bf109F-4 too (JFV 9-1, p. 361). In the Prien/Rodeike/Stemmer chronicle on Stab and I./JG27 and in JFV vol.6-1 there are losses of Bf109Fs documented on 18.June 1941 (Bf109F-2 WNr. 8198) and 13. September 1941 (Bf109F-2, WNr.9694). So Maj. Woldenga would not need to bring an own Bf109F nor to use special relations to aquire one - Stab/JG27 already had some on strength."

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

I know Rasmussen,

It's not complete, but coherent :)

For 2. I think it's done.
For 1. As I wrote before; I read Baslovo and I'm afraid there is as much Baslovo than Maslovo :)

Regards, Franck.

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

It's your choice. For me (personal) it seems you have an strange understandig of Roman letters and their spelling ... you live to long in China ;)

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

Ah ah ah Maybe !!! :)

https://www.google.fr/search?q=sutte...w=1366&bih=562

Here is a choice for Sutterlin links ... I'm not able to find an M like the one written on photo's back but a B yes.

What I found:

Baslovo Pskov
Baslovo Vtoroye
Baslovo Pervoye
Novoye Baslovo
Baslovo, Novgorodskaya Oblast

1 and 2 seem to me the same ... Last one sounds good ..

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

You always have to take into consideration that the originals are written in kyrillic letters and this is a german transscription - which is rather different to the international transscription. There are two different letters "B" in kyrillic - one looking like quite similar to a "B" and pronounced like a "b" and an other one looking exactly like a latin "B" but pronounced as "v". (German "w" - which would be closer to an "M"). What if the hamlet is too small to be part of a map and you have to rely on the pronounciation of the local populace. Many members of the Luftwaffe still used written "Sütterlin", some already writing "Normschrift", some using a mixture of both. Typewriters used "Normschrift", printed media used mainly still "Schwabacher" etc. etc.... So "Baslowo", "Maslovo" or even "Waslowo" may be possible imo.

Regards

Roland

P.S. The writer of the caption uses a rather clean "Sütterlin". The first letter is NO Sütterlin "M" and the 6th letter NO Sütterlin "v"....

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

The writer of the caption doesn't used an clean "Sütterlin" --- please --- have a look on the "e" in "ein" or "notgelandeter" or the "s" in "deutscher". The "d" is an letter written in Sütterlin not more. He wrote in principle in a "fast handwriting" in Normschrift ... so - of course the "M" isn't written in Sütterlin. It's an fast written M in Normschrift. I write "my" M in my signature on the same kind.

Regards Rasmussen

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

Yes, I noticed this, Rasmussen. He uses some kind of mixture, this makes it difficult. Obviously a young person having been trained in Sütterlin at school and updating his handwriting with the new letters. But look how he writes his "d", "n" and "a"(oben offen). What I wanted to say - there are much more possibilities to read this caption ;-)

Servus

Roland

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

Well, what we do now nice fellows? ... :)

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

No - they did not have Bf 109F-4s at strength - at best they had some on loan from another unit.

I respect the work that Dr. Prien has done immensely - the books are tremendous resources - but one should never use books as proof as you do now - simply because they can contain errors and typos. Jochen Prien is the first to acknowledge that when you have a source material as large as his - and as prone for errors as the sources itself can be (in my work with my loss database I have entered over 14700 corrections to the loss records - and that is without the entire 1944 and large portions of 1945 where the records are not to be found and have probably been destroyed) any publication however well researched and proofread can contain errors.

First - your reference to the loss of WNr 8198 - this aircraft is listed as being lost 60% by Stab/JG 27 on June 18th 1941 - but it is also noted as lost 100% on June 25th 1941 with II./JG 52 - one of these must be erronous. II./JG 52 had Bf 109F's on strength according to their strength returns at that time - Stab/JG 27 did not - I know which loss I have marked as dubious with regards to validity.

Second - your reference to the loss of WNr 9694 - this aircraft is reported as damaged 10% by Stab/JG 27 on September 13th 1941, but also listed as lost as an E-7 by 5./JG 52 on September 27th 1941.

So your evidence is not as rock solid as you might believe - and as all of these losses are Sachschaden only - no personnel injured or otherwise harmed - one can not use NVMs to try to conclude with regards to which record is correct and which one is wrong.

Just to be sure that our team has not made an error when entering these in the database I just checked the records - all the WNr are clearly correctly entered - and we thus have real duplicate loss records from two different units for these WNr with just a few days apart.

I agree with ouidjat on this one - until further proof - preferably from primary sources - there is no proof yet that Stab/JG 27 had Bf 109Fs on strength prior to their conversion at Döberitz.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??
 

Can't someone call that guy and ask if he can take a photo from inside his yard???

Regards,
Andreas B