Is there a list of ships sunk by the Luftwaffe?
 

I'm well aware that there is no single source that considers all Luftwaffe anti-shipping operations, but I wonder whether someone has tried to compile a list of the various ships sunk. I am especially interested in warships, partly because there were fewer of them! I've asked a similar question about RAF operations, just in case ther is any cross-over, see http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showpost.php?p=185195

I know of Georg Thiele's list at the end of his book, as well as Andrew Arthy's list covering mid-1943 in the Mediterranean. A lot of information is spread throughout other titles, including de Zeng and Stankey's excellent Units volumes. However, noone seems to have made any attempt to bring all the data together. Is there a good modern source out there?

Regards,

Paul

Re: Is there a list of ships sunk by the Luftwaffe?
 

Hello,
Have you looked at
http://www.uboat.net/
Alex

Re: Is there a list of ships sunk by the Luftwaffe?
 

Hello Alex,

I have looked at quite a few Web sources, their problem is that they are incomplete and contradictory. Furthermore, nothing on the Web addresses the subject of Luftwaffe ship sinkings directly. For example, the page on uboat.net - http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/war_losses.html - simply lists all losses known to the authors and makes an attempt to note the cause of each loss in the broadest outline. Therefore, it's not very good for the specific subject in question. Having said that, I concede that it has some good material on Allied submarines, as reflected in the list of updates - http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships...t_updates.html

I understand that my query is broad and therefore finding the relevant infromation is difficult. Do you know of a source or sources for specific campaigns, for example the Mediterranean in 1941?

Regards,

Paul

Re: Is there a list of ships sunk by the Luftwaffe?
 

You could try the collection of Admiralty War Diaries on Fold3.com.

Re: Is there a list of ships sunk by the Luftwaffe?
 

You could also try to collect all the german claims !

Nd divide by 3 :D

Rémi

Re: Is there a list of ships sunk by the Luftwaffe?
 

Hello Nick,

Thank you for the idea, I will certainly look at some of those files when I can set aside some time. Sorting through the diaries is a research task in itself! I don't wish to appear difficult, but I'm quite surprised that there seems to be no publication on the topic, even though it is of interest to many. My idea was to supplement my research on Luftwaffe strength and losses with some comments about its operations against naval targets, but it seems that will be more difficult than I thought.

Hello Rémi,

I think that German over-claims are an interesting subject, the issue is that there is no claims list to look at, since Jim Perry hasn't extended his lists to include ships :)

Regards,

Paul

Re: Is there a list of ships sunk by the Luftwaffe?
 

A list could be made up from searching under " British Naval Vessels Lost at Sea 1939-45-Naval-History.Net" it can be searched on class of vessel or theatre ( this is based on the original Admiralty HMSO publication dated 1947). Having listed the ships shown under lost to aircraft a web search under HMS ------- for each ship would give up to date details on each loss.

Re: Is there a list of ships sunk by the Luftwaffe?
 

Hello Brian,

I am aware of that website, it is a good source, but it covers only the Royal Navy and does not always make distinctions between German and Italian attacks. Out of all the Web sources, Chronik des Seekrieges is the best, but even that often resorts to best guesses in its coverage of air attacks.

Would it be reasonable to say that you haven't encountered any research dealing specifically with the matter of air attacks? I know of a couple of recent pieces written from the Soviet perspective, but I haven't found any German or Allied ones.

Regards,

Paul

Re: Is there a list of ships sunk by the Luftwaffe?
 

Paul, I have only used the site I mentioned in respect of some research I done for one of my neighbours a RN vet. I thought it might have been of some use to you. The Book "Kampfgeschwader 100 Wiking" by Ulf Balke includes chapters on shipping attacks by that unit including the sinking of the Roma and attack on the Warspite etc.,

Regards
Brian Bines

Re: Is there a list of ships sunk by the Luftwaffe?
 

Paul, You might try the book "Chronology of the War at Sea, 1939-1945: The Naval History of World War Two" by Juergen Rohwer (+532 pages). It's a day by day of the war at sea. It has vessels that were sunk by the Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine and German mines.

Re: Is there a list of ships sunk by the Luftwaffe?
 

That's kind of the thing about research — it does entail a lot of footslogging to get to what you want. As for being surprised no one else has published about this, you could [activate business-speak] see it as an opportunity [end business-speak]. If you wanted to do something on this you'd have the field to yourself!

More seriously, if you were to start a list and post updates here or on a web page, you would probably find that people would contribute additions and corrections

Re: Is there a list of ships sunk by the Luftwaffe?
 

In fact Chronik des Seekrieges is an updated and enlarged version of the Rohwer's and Hummelchen's book. If one can read German it is better to use the website.

Re: Is there a list of ships sunk by the Luftwaffe?
 

BTW, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...September_1940

etc is surprisingly good.

Re: Is there a list of ships sunk by the Luftwaffe?
 

Paul -

Three helpful websites worth examining:

http://www.miramarshipindex.org.nz/
http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/hague/index.html
http://www.schiffswrackliste.de/

Within the past two years, several individuals active on Axis History Forum have stated that they are working on comprehensive lists of WWII ships sunk or damaged by aircraft. Some searching over there might lead you to these individuals.

Larry

Re: Is there a list of ships sunk by the Luftwaffe?
 

When I worked on "From Barbarossa to Odessa" project, I had very hard time in finding precise data on Soviet ships sunken by the Luftwaffe (and, to a lesser extent, by ARR). Nevertheless, I hope I managed to capture most such incidents that happened in the North-Western area of the Black Sea, between June and October 1941.

Re: Is there a list of ships sunk by the Luftwaffe?
 

Brian, thank you for these additional thoughts, I've sent you a private message about this.

Nick, I wholly agree with your thoughts about research, having done a bit of it on Luftwaffe strengths and losses. I must admit that the prospect of becoming "Paul Thompson, the eminent expert on Luftwaffe naval operations" appeals to my vanity! Time, as ever, is the issue.

I think your idea of starting an online list is eminently sensible and I'll do that, after checking with the AxisHistory members mentioned by Larry. I want to make sure I won't be duplicating somebody else's work, although I may exaggerate the danger!

Regards,

Paul

Re: Is there a list of ships sunk by the Luftwaffe?
 

Juha,

That's right. Even though Wikipedia's reputation is deservedly bad, it is good at what it does, namely providing summaries of web sources. Uboat.net, Warsailors and Wrecksite have been brought together on the Wikipedia lists, the thing to do next is to verify the result and resolve discrepancies among the sources. I aim to start doing that on the blog that I've mentioned in my answer to Nick.

Larry, thank you again! I didn't know about Miramar Ship Index, that will be a most useful addition to the source collection. As mentioned above, I'll set about contacting the Axis History members.

Dénes, I have had exactly the same problem. I have got your book and will make use of it! I wonder, thinking of "the other side of the hill", do you happen to have a list of Romanian naval losses to aircraft? I am thinking especially of the vessels lost to air-dropped mines on the Danube, since these seem to have attracted very little coverage.

Regards,

Paul

Re: Is there a list of ships sunk by the Luftwaffe?
 

For British merchant vessels lost there is "British merchant vessels lost or damaged by enemy action during the second world war" its an old book published by the British Gov in 1947 and reprint by PSL in the 1970s or 1980s.Hope this is of some help.

Re: Is there a list of ships sunk by the Luftwaffe?
 

Wonder if one could guess the casualties, for all these losses ...probably tens of thousands

Rémi

Re: Is there a list of ships sunk by the Luftwaffe?
 

peter.r,

Thank you, book will certainly prove useful! For the moment, I plan to concentrate purely on warships and use the books I've already got, for the simple reason that I have a busy schedule right now. Even so, I think that whatever lists I'll create will be of interest to TOCH members, since nobody has previously taken the trouble of extracting this information from titles like "Spitfires over Sicily". The authors of the books, including Brian and Dénes, will not read anything new, but perhaps they'll appreciate the publicity!

Two merchant marine books that I don't have and may well be very useful are "Shipping Company Losses of the Second World War" and "The World's Merchant Fleets, 1939: The Particulars and Wartime Fates of 6,000 Ships". Comments from those who have read these would be welcome.

Rémi,

Casualty totals for the US Merchant Marine are online here. The received figure for the British Merchant Navy seems to be "over 30,000", so you are correct regarding the magnitude of losses.

Regards,

Paul

Re: Is there a list of ships sunk by the Luftwaffe?
 

Hi Paul, the book I mentioned is in two parts, part one is Royal navy losses and part two is merchant vessels. peter.r

Re: Is there a list of ships sunk by the Luftwaffe?
 

Besides the above mentioned sources there are articals in Warship magazine on WW II/GPW era Soviet warships that do mention their losses and damage. I think they also have an article on the Rumanian navy during this period.

Re: Is there a list of ships sunk by the Luftwaffe?
 

peter.r,

Thank you for the elaboration, I will look up part one.

Hello James,

That's a very good source. I've located the index for the issues of Warship up to the year 2012 online. A brief search has turned up the following four relevant articles:
1994 - The Soviet Cruisers of the Chapayev and Sverdlov Classes, by V V Jarovoj and René Grege
2001-2 - The Royal Romanian Navy at War, 1941-1944, by Pierre Hervieux
2008 - The Soviet Project 7/7U Destroyers, by Vladimir Yakubov and Richard Worth
2009 - The Soviet Light Cruisers of the Kirov cClass, by Vladimir Yakubov and Richard Worth

Would you mind pointing out some more that I may have missed? Can you also list a couple of the books about RAF torpedo bomber operations that you mentioned in the other thread?

Regards,

Paul

Re: Is there a list of ships sunk by the Luftwaffe?
 

The Soviets published a multi-volume report on ship losses and damage during WWII. It is very complete, covering merchant ships and warships. A few copies are available (in Russian). It details losses by theater and by day. Extremely detailed.

Re: Is there a list of ships sunk by the Luftwaffe?
 

mjbollinger,

Thank you for making me aware of the source. Would you mind providing the title and publication details?

I have sent you a private message.

Regards,

Paul

Re: Is there a list of ships sunk by the Luftwaffe?
 

Glad to be of help. Here are some books that deal with RAF torpedo bomber and anti-shipping operations:
Torpedo Bomber/ The Ship Busters Ralph Barker
The Strike Wings Roy C Nesbit
Armed Rovers " "
Torpedo Airmen " "
A Separate little War Andrew Bird
A Forgotten Offensive Christina J.M. Goulter

Re: Is there a list of ships sunk by the Luftwaffe?
 

James, thank you for the set of sources. I will look up the new Stackpole edition of "The Ship Busters", since I have at least broswed all the others. In the process of finding that edition, I've chanced upon an interesting blog by someone who's read a few works on Coastal Command - aircrewbookreview.blogspot.com.

Regards,

Paul

Re: Is there a list of ships sunk by the Luftwaffe?
 

Paul,
May I add to the list of references the books of Chris Shores? First, the two volumes published so far of A History of the Mediterranean Air War, which cover the period of June 1940 to March 1943 in North Africa. These cover operations from Northeast Africa, and should cover all sinkings by aircraft of the British, Italian, German and American forces in this period. The period of November 1942 to May 1943 will be covered in volume three, work on which has just started.

Operations from Malta are covered in the earlier Malta: The Hurricane Years (1940 to 1941), and Malta: The Spitfire Year (1942). Further operations from Malta will appear in forthcoming volumes of Mediterranean Air War. The former is out of print, but used copies are not hard to find. The latter has just been reprinted.

The earlier Air War for Yugoslavia, Greece and Crete 1940-41 also has details of ship losses to aircraft, with appendices listing the losses. Additional research in this area has been done by others, so these lists may be incomplete. This one is also out of print, and seems to be just a little expensive.

Hope this helps.

Frank.
co-author of the MAW series.

Re: Is there a list of ships sunk by the Luftwaffe?
 

Here are a few losses to be going on with, taken from my Kampfflieger Vol. 4 (and originally from Admiralty files in the National Archives).

Re: Is there a list of ships sunk by the Luftwaffe?
 

Frank,

It is a pleasure to have you contribute to the thread too! I am lucky in that I have all the books you listed, apart from "Spitfires", so I have plenty to work with. Now to find the time for it all! Once I am able extract the relevant data from the books, the gaps should be reasonably easy to fill through forums, since specifics of individual incidents can usually be found with the appropriate background knowledge.

I have sent you a private message on an issue related to this subject.

Nick,

Thank you very much, having the convoys specified helps too. Speaking of individual incidents, I was able to find a very interesting TOCH thread from last year by searching for CAF 31 - http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=33819. Some posts from this forum should be edited into a reference work :)

Regards,

Paul