|
The blue PRU Spitfire PR.XI shot down Nijmegen 20 Sept1944
Anyone know who claimed this kill?
|
Re: The blue PRU Spitfire PR.XI shot down Nijmegen 20 Sept1944
I can see no fighter claims for Spitfires on this date
|
Re: The blue PRU Spitfire PR.XI shot down Nijmegen 20 Sept1944
Spitfire PR.XI PL834 16 Sqdn Figher
Spitfire PR.XI PA893 16 Sqdn Fighter http://batchgeo.com/map/a1cda95c62f5...56121afa18c106 |
Re: The blue PRU Spitfire PR.XI shot down Nijmegen 20 Sept1944
Map for all losses RAf september 1944 can be found here: http://batchgeo.com/map/e5ee258f005c...5b76718a55dd30
All my interactive maps contain data on more levels be it location, airplane type etc. All searchable strings ( like i.g. day fighter or a date.) in a map can be found by clicking on a single pin on a map
|
Re: The blue PRU Spitfire PR.XI shot down Nijmegen 20 Sept1944
Re: '8th June 2014, 12:30', I like the idea of this interactive map. Unfortunately, the information on it is not correct. According to the 16 Sqdn ORBs, the two aircraft that were shot down that day were PL834 and PL896, not PL834 and PA893. Also, according to the pilot of PL834, he crashed in a field near Wolfheze, west of Arnhem (not Wolfhezestraat, Den Haag), and an eyewitness says PL896 just missed crashing into his house in Hees, Nijmegen, which rules out Dorpsstraat, Oosterhout as too far away. Dorpsstraat, Hees is far more likely.
|
Re: The blue PRU Spitfire PR.XI shot down Nijmegen 20 Sept1944
Re: '8th June 2014, 13:06', again I like the map. But although this map is titled 'Raf losses over Holland September 1944', the dates selectable at the bottom of the page are only within November 1944…
|
Re: The blue PRU Spitfire PR.XI shot down Nijmegen 20 Sept1944
Quote:
http://sglo.rm-webdesign.com/zoek-t-...php?SGLO=T4203 http://sglo.rm-webdesign.com/zoek-t-...php?SGLO=T4204 |
Re: The blue PRU Spitfire PR.XI shot down Nijmegen 20 Sept1944
Quote:
|
Re: The blue PRU Spitfire PR.XI shot down Nijmegen 20 Sept1944
Thanks Snautzer. Do you have the September 1944 losses map too, please? There was no house numbered '160' on Dorpsstraat, Hees in 1940 (although there was a '158' and a '162'), and little likelihood of it having been built between then and 1944.
The SGLO Verlieslijst is a work in progress. As new or revised information reaches the group, the list is revised correspondingly. Here's the email address in the event that you have revised information for them: verliesregister@studiegroepluchtoorlog.nl That's why you can find different version numbers of the list online, with different dates, as the information has been revised and the list reissued. There's original documentation for 'PL896' being the correct serial. Would like to see original documentation for 'PA893' instead. It's very easy to get led 'down the garden path' with this kind of research… |
Re: The blue PRU Spitfire PR.XI shot down Nijmegen 20 Sept1944
Unless somebody returns to the original question, this thread is moving to the Allied and Soviet Forum.
|
Re: The blue PRU Spitfire PR.XI shot down Nijmegen 20 Sept1944
I have made a lot of maps including:
Allied losses over Holland 1940-1945 (per year) Luftwaffe losses over Holland 1940-1945 (per year) Unit movement maps of JG1 to JG54 1939-1945 Attacks on German production: including target, notes on targets and attack dates:
RAF/USAAF bomb targets in Germany - Oct to Dec 1943 RAF/USAAF bomb targets in Germany - Jan to Jun 1944 Allied airbases in the ETO Etc.. Most if not all can be found on LEMB here: http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...?showforum=403 It can happen that some maps are not active anymore. This is because lack of views over a period of time. The BatchGeo takes them down then. If needed i can repost those maps. I will post the RAF september map in the Allied and Soviet Forum. |
Re: The blue PRU Spitfire PR.XI shot down Nijmegen 20 Sept1944
Luftwaffe fighters were seen to shoot this aircraft down. Why were there no claims? Were they stopped lower down? Even if the gun cameras were faulty, wouldn't each pilot back up the other's claim?
|
Re: The blue PRU Spitfire PR.XI shot down Nijmegen 20 Sept1944
Quote:
Only small-scale reconnaissance operations were carried out during the day owing to weather conditions.Four Bf 109 of NAG 13 operated between Aachen and Nancy but broke off due to bad weather. There is no mention of any combat and all returned safely. Several claims were made by fighters on both the 19th and 21st however. |
Re: The blue PRU Spitfire PR.XI shot down Nijmegen 20 Sept 1944
Quote:
That might not be accurate. Was the height of interception verified, and who was the eyewitness? Quote:
Maybe the Spitfire was shot down by Allied aircraft. Or ground fire. Also the No. 1 PRU no longer existed in name; it was reorganized as five squadrons in October 1942. No. 16 Squadron was never part of the PRU - it was assigned to the Army Co-operation Command and later 2nd Tactical Air Force. |
Re: The blue PRU Spitfire PR.XI shot down Nijmegen 20 Sept1944
Thank you gentlemen. Yes, I've used 'PRU' in error here. 16 Squadron was part of 34Wg 2TAF on 20th Sept 1944. An eyewitness Nicolaas Lambrechtsen talks of 'a Spitfire which had been shot' nearly crashing into the back of his house at 14 Kerkstraat, Hees shortly before it actually crashed in the vicinity of the Petruskerk, Hees (link)…
http://www.netherlandsfoundation.org...-lambrechtsen/ (Warning: the statement 'Three Dutch civilians also died in that crash' may well be unsupported, and result from the conflation of this crash with another (see lower down)) (Warning: the date is incorrectly given, and is revised here) (link)… http://www.netherlandsfoundation.org...-william-cain/ Article on this incident (in Dutch) (link)… http://www.oorlogsdodennijmegen.nl/g...beurtenisID=13 (Warning: the picture is incorrect, and has a Spitfire of the wrong model and colour) (Warning: the link to the pilot gives the wrong model Spitfire and gives 'Neerbosch' when Hees is much more likely) (Warning: the SGLO Verlieslijst v6 contains at least one known and one probable error) (Warning: the Arjen W. Kuiken reference (again in Dutch, under 'Reactie 2') conflates the Spitfire crash with the Mitchell crash in the same area on the 25th) There are still a lot of cobwebs to be cleared away…! |
Re: The blue PRU Spitfire PR.XI shot down Nijmegen 20 Sept1944
Hello there!
There's a post about 16 Squadron, and Jimmy Taylor who shared quarters with John Brodby, on my blog here… http://hewasahero.wordpress.com/ Please take a look and say what needs adding or changing. Thanks! |
Re: The blue PRU Spitfire PR.XI shot down Nijmegen 20 Sept1944
Hewasahero
Something is strange here! What is your sources for PL896 being the aircraft lost on 20.9.1944? Published sources has this aircraft as 6 MU 20.7.44; 1PP Benson 14.10.44; 542 Sq 1.11.44; 71 MU 13.3.46; SOC 1.4.46 On the other hand PA893 is recorded as 6 MU 19.7.44; Benson 20.8.44; sortie to Arnhem area from Northolt 20.9.44 (P/O J R Brodby killed 14.9.45) I don't know why Brodby is listed as kiiled on the 14th if the mission was flown on the 20th, but the important point is that PA893 looks very much correct while PL896 does not! B Rgds Stig |
Re: The blue PRU Spitfire PR.XI shot down Nijmegen 20 Sept1944
Hi Stig!
For John Brodby's last flight: — 20 Sept 1944 is taken directly from 16 Squadron ORBs (and 16 Squadron Roll Of Honour held at IWM London concurs) — PL896 is taken directly from 16 Squadron ORBs Very keen to know the provenance of the information in your post. Unless you can reference more authoritative sources than this, surely the working assumption has to be that: — all other dates for his death are wrong — PA893 and all other aircraft serial numbers are wrong Thanks! hewasahero |
Re: The blue PRU Spitfire PR.XI shot down Nijmegen 20 Sept1944
Oh well Hewasahero
Then I suppose it is up to what you believe in. The two aircrafts record cards or 16Sq ORB. Both aircraft were at Benson and the glitch may be there somewhere. Cheers Stig |
Re: The blue PRU Spitfire PR.XI shot down Nijmegen 20 Sept1944
Stig,
There can be a large volume of confusion associated with this kind of research, and the fact that something is published is unfortunately no guarantee of the factual nature of what is on the page. All kinds of factors can lead to incomplete, misleading or erroneous information ending up in the public domain, even with the best and most open of intentions, and certainly transcripts of original documents, or even the original documents themselves, can contains errors. On the two crashes that I've been researching (PL896 and FW211), I can point you to both online and offline sources which are either dubious or just plain wrong. According to his book 'One Flight Too Many' for example (a cracking read, by the way), Jimmy Taylor has the date of John Brodby's death wrong, and he also appears to have taken at face value an online reference to Brodby's crash having killed three civilians. This reference has since (and with a fair amount of heavy lifting) been rescinded by its author due to lack of evidence, and now seems to be a conflation between this crash and that of FW211 nearby, in which several civilians died. More information about FW211 and its upcoming memorial ceremony here… http://hewasahero.wordpress.com/ The 16 Sqdn ORBs don't seem to say how John Brodby travelled to RAF Northolt however, and nothing rules out him having flown a different plane in each direction. If we both keep worrying away at this, maybe we can get to the bottom of it. Are you up for it? I am. If there are other documents at the National Archives, IWM London or the RAF Museum London you can point me to that promise to be relevant, I'd be happy to go and have a look. All the best, hewasahero |
Re: The blue PRU Spitfire PR.XI shot down Nijmegen 20 Sept1944
Hewasahero
I have no access to the two aircrafts record cards, which is what I am quoting. However there is no reason that everyone so far who has checked them can all read them so wrong. Likewise since you state you quote the ORB we end up in a deadlock which I cannot solve unless we can find a third source. I will have a word with someone who might be able to help. Cheers Stig |
Re: The blue PRU Spitfire PR.XI shot down Nijmegen 20 Sept1944
Stig,
Here are screenshots of the digitised microfilm of the 16 Sqdn ORBs covering the period of this incident, which is what the National Archives at Kew lets you take for free, and should be a reasonable (if fuzzier) facsimile of the original typed documents. I don't reasonably foresee getting access to those. Note the fault with the typewriter where the upper and lower case letters are misaligned with respect to one another. Next we need access to reasonable facsimiles of the two aircrafts' Record Cards for comparison. Are those cards in London? If so, let me know where, as I'm local. Also we need any other (ideally original or good facsimile) documentation which can potentially be used to corroborate one or other document set (or maybe even point out where the discrepancy has crept in): http://s25.postimg.org/ojslkgmt7/RIMG0012_v2.jpg http://s25.postimg.org/49va5blob/RIMG0013_v2.jpg http://s25.postimg.org/hs26hlxtn/RIMG0016_v2.jpg Cheers hewasahero |
Re: The blue PRU Spitfire PR.XI shot down Nijmegen 20 Sept1944
Very puzzling
On one page the ORB states for 20.9.1944 A completely duff day, only one sortie was flown, and so on, and so on. No losses are mentioned! On the other page you show at least four missions on the 20th with the two losses listed. Are you sure the pages are from the same ORB? If they are the ORB seems totally unreliable to me.... Finally, I have no idea if the RAF aircraft record cards are at Kew or not. I have always supposed they are, but you have to ask someone who knows. Cheers Stig PS: I now see that for some odd reason one part of the ORB list the four sorties to have taken place on the 21st while the other record them on the 20th. Again not very trustworthy.... Also why this 'double book keeping'?? |
Re: The blue PRU Spitfire PR.XI shot down Nijmegen 20 Sept1944
They are from the same ORB.
The detachment to, and mission from, RAF Northolt was a 2TAF secret at the time (being in support of Operation Market Garden), and the 'double' aspect derives from this alone. One of the reports is from Northolt, and the other from Amiens Glisy. Are you reading 'PL896' too? My eyesight's not 20/20… Jimmy Taylor's book 'One Flight Too Many'… http://www.ypdbooks.com/biography/62...-YPD00583.html (a great read despite a few factual errors) and other pamphlets of his, talk about the Northolt detachment and also of having to gather his bunkmate Brodby's things together when it was clear he was not coming back. Can you suggest what source material would likely be more authoritative than the Squadron ORBs? On occasion these are pretty much contemporaneous notes, with other entries only hours old… The CWGC entry further reinforces 20Sept1944 as the date of his crash… http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/ca...0JOHN%20ROBERT Yet to hunt the cards myself. Need to find out whether they're at RAF Museum London. We may have a third party in the form of the Studiegroep Luchtoorlog 1939-1945. Here you can download their 1944 Loss Register PDF… http://www.studiegroepluchtoorlog.nl...register-1944/ Here's their entry for Brodby… T4204 | 20-sep-44 | 1000 | Hees (Dorpsstraat 158/160) | Spitfire PR.XI | PA893 | 16 Sqdn | F/O. J.R. Brodby B Can they prove any of this, and if so what sources are they quoting? There are other websites with similar entries. Again, where are they getting this? I'm looking for a fruitful collaboration here. The ball's on your side of the net! Anyone else can muck in too if they've a mind to… Med vänliga hälsningar hewasahero http://hewasahero.wordpress.com/ |
Re: The blue PRU Spitfire PR.XI shot down Nijmegen 20 Sept1944
Hello again!
I've managed to get scans of the Movement Record Cards for PL896 and PA893 from the RAF Museum London… http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/london/ They're on my blog… http://hewasahero.wordpress.com/ …and here we see the dilemma crystallised. Planes with both these serial numbers didn't crash on 20 September 1944, so there's an error in one or other set of record copies (and almost certainly in the original records). At first glance, the number of entries on the Movement Cards gives weight to their being the more trustworthy source, but if they are correct, then where did 'PL896' come from in the Operations Record Books? It doesn't look like a mis-spelling of 'PA893', and just happens to be the serial number not just of a Spitfire, but of a Spitfire of the same model! Who can unpick this Gordian knot? |
Re: The blue PRU Spitfire PR.XI shot down Nijmegen 20 Sept1944
|
Re: The blue PRU Spitfire PR.XI shot down Nijmegen 20 Sept1944
We're in the 6 September edition of 'De Gelderlander', the paper for the Nijmegen area. The original article and an imperfect English translation are both here on my blog…
http://hewasahero.wordpress.com/ and for more details of the ceremony please see the organiser's site… http://www.litho320.veteranen.nl/ |
Re: The blue PRU Spitfire PR.XI shot down Nijmegen 20 Sept1944
|
Re: The blue PRU Spitfire PR.XI shot down Nijmegen 20 Sept1944
The unidentified airman in Wijchen got identified pretty quickly as someone else, by a man who specialises in this area. Possible that Wijchen is 'leading us down the garden path', but still we battle on…!
http://hewasahero.wordpress.com/2014...an-identified/ |
Re: The blue PRU Spitfire PR.XI shot down Nijmegen 20 Sept1944
Investigation spurred by PL896's Movement Card leads to this serial number being very unlikely for the plane that Brodby crashed in…
http://hewasahero.wordpress.com/ |
Re: The blue PRU Spitfire PR.XI shot down Nijmegen 20 Sept1944
Perhaps you should check the ORB before Sept 20, 1944 and will discover a serial that is almost identical?
|
Re: The blue PRU Spitfire PR.XI shot down Nijmegen 20 Sept1944
Have obtained a lead in that regard, which I'm intending to follow up in person at Kew next week. Thanks!
|
Re: The blue PRU Spitfire PR.XI shot down Nijmegen 20 Sept1944
At Kew yesterday chasing PL893 in the 683 Squadron ORBs. It's there, over and over, in December 1944 and January 1945, so it's also safe to rule this serial number out as the one of the plane Brodby crashed in…
http://hewasahero.wordpress.com/2014...ron-and-pl893/ |
| All times are GMT +2. The time now is 18:01. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net