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Libau 28 October 1944
On 28 October 1944, II/JG 54 claimed 14 Il-2 in 12 minutes (11.44-11.56) near Libau, East Prussia. Maj Erich Ruddorffer claimed 9, the 5 other being claimed by 3 other German aces (Uffz Hugo Broch (2), Fw Kurt Tangermann (2) and Lt Gerhard Thyben).
Does anyone have a clue about the attacked Soviet unit and the real losses ? Thanks in advance Laurent |
Re: Libau 28 October 1944
Hello, Laurent!
14:12 Moscow Time (12:12 CET) 24 Pe-2 (12.GPBAP) with escort of 28 Yak-9 (14.GIAP) and 14 Yak-9 (21.IAP) made an attack against transports in Libava (Libau) port without losses. About the same time 26 Il-2 (8.GShAP) and 22 Il-2 (47.ShAP) with escort of 30 Yak-9/LaGG-3 (9.IAP) made the same mission. Losses during dogfight were 3 Il-2, also 2 Yak-9 (21.IAP) collided in air on return flight; claims were 8 FW-190 (really 1 or more?). It seems Ruddorffer and his men had more rich fantasy that day than their Soviet opponents. Regards, Andrey |
Re: Libau 28 October 1944
it looks like major Ruddorffer's overclaims did not limit in North Africa
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Re: Libau 28 October 1944
Thanks, Andrey. I was guessing something like that. My source claimed that Ruddorffer became known as the "fighter of Libau" by Soviet pilots. In reality they probably didn't notice anything special this day.
By the way, are you the same Andrey Kuznetsov that had much knwoledge about the Soviet Navy on "Norway on WWII" and "Warsailors" forum ? |
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Re: Libau 28 October 1944
Hello, Laurent!
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Regards, Andrey |
Re: Libau 28 October 1944
Judging by Tony Wood's listings on November 6, 1943 the following jagdgruppe claimed this number of Soviet fighters in the vicinity of Kiev:
II/JG54 - Yaks - 22 (including 13 by Rudorrfer and 5 by Tangerman) La-5 - 3 IV/JG54 - La-5 - 5 I/JG51 - Yak-9 - 3 La-5 - 3 Actuall losses for 256 IAD and 8 GIAD (which participated in the combats around Kiev on that day were: 3 Yak-7 and 3 La-5 shot down in combats, 2 Yak-7 and 2 La-5 failed to return from missions and 3 La-5 damaged due to enemy fighters, conducted belly landings on friendly territoty. Please note that definition "failed to return" does not necesserily mean that they were shot down by fighters... Quote:
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Re: Libau 28 October 1944
Hello!
Question for Andrey K about the Oct 28 mission and units. As far as I know all the other units are from VVS KBF (Baltic Fleet Air Force), but isn't 14 GIAP an "army aviation" (VVS RKKA) unit? During Vyborg operation and earlier it was in 275 IAD, 13 VA strength. How common it was to see mixed army/navy Soviet flying formations? This is the first one I have read of. Regards, Kari |
Re: Libau 28 October 1944
Hello, Kari!
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“Non-navy” escort of navy air units wasn’t a common practice, but happened from time to time. For example, in Nov.1943 57.GIAP (329.IAD, 4.Air Army) made some escort missions with 23.ShAP (VVS ChF). Regards, Andrey |
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And more so, it seems that at that period of the war, at least in this area, such overclaims were not uncommon, as you can see for the other raids on Libau (this is only the result of a short research, not necessarily perfectly accurate, but I think it more or less is...) : - 14/12/1944 : according to John Weal's Osprey book about JG 54, JG 54 scored 44 defending Libau on that day, while the soviet losses were 16 planes (at least 2 of which and probably most of the others fell to AAA). - 15/12/1944 : same source : 56 claims for JG 54, this time the soviet side lost 24 planes to all causes. If you consider that AAA was the cause for a non-negligible part of these losses, and that other fighter units (at least Stab/JG 51 and III/SG 3 were also operating Fw-190s in this area) could have been involved, the overclaiming is quite obvious... |
Re: Libau 28 October 1944
Kari,
there were two different "14 GIAP", one VVS (ex 7 IAP), and the other VVS KBF (ex 13 IAP) as Andrei told. Note also that "13 IAP" was used twice by different units in VVS KBF: - after the original 13 IAP became 4 GIAP in Jan 1942, this number became "free" and could be given to the new naval figther regiment. The topic of Guards numbers of Soviet (not only air) units is very complex and interesting. Eg. when ADD became 18 Air army 6 Dec 1944 and thus integrated into VVS, numerous ADD guards units got new numbers, as their numbers were already used in VVS! Carl |
Re: Libau 28 October 1944
Hello!
Now I get it. There was TWO "14 GIAP" in Leningrad sector after 20.7.1944. One in KBF (ex 13 OIAE, ex 13 KIAP) and one in 13 VA (ex 7 IAP)*. Events after later Summer 1944 are not my forte and the elevation of 13 IAP to Guards status had gone unnoticed by me until now. Finns shot down at least one 13 KIAP (might have been 14 GIAP already then) LaGG-3 late Summer 1944. It was probably so called "66-series" machine as it was noted that the camouflage was like on Messerschmitts (=two greys). For KBF 14 GIAP see: http://www.bellabs.ru/51/Analysis/Command.html#14GIAP For 13 VA 14 GIAP see: http://avia-hobby.ru/publ/soviaps/giap_1.html http://www.allaces.ru/cgi-bin/s2.cgi...uct/p/iap7.dat Cheers, Kari |
Re: Libau 28 October 1944
Just a correction, Andrey:
>Losses during dogfight were 3 Il-2, also 2 Yak-9 (21.IAP) collided in air on return flight; claims were 8 FW-190 (really 1 or more?). According to my information these Yaks were from different IAPs - 21 iap and 14 giap. |
Re: Libau 28 October 1944
One more small additional information:
Libau is not in what was called Ostpreussen by then, but in Kurland, a part of Lithuania. |
Re: Libau 28 October 1944
Correction to small correction:
Libau (Latvian Liepaja) was, and still is (as all Kurland) part of Latvia (NOT Lithuania), Carl |
Re: Libau 28 October 1944
Yes, Lettland in german whic his my native language. In english, I tend to confuse them... big sorry to all Lithuanians and Latvians :o .
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Re: Libau 28 October 1944
Gentlmen, lets start :)
Around 12:00, there was an attack of Il-2's of 47 ShAP KBF and 8 GvShAP KBF. Seems, that 47 ShAP made its attack from SW of Libau, while 8 GvShAP - from NW of Libau. 8 GvShAP lost one Il-2 with crew: Pilot Gv. Ml. L-t Viktor N. Karev (MiA) Gunner Gv. St. Krasnfl. Petr I. Gavrilov (MiA) This crew "failed to return from combat mission", location of loss is unknown. This loss almost for sure goes to Hugo Broch, who claimed ths and 1 more Il-2. 2nd claim is not confirmed by VVS losses, but I dont know how many there were damaged Il-2's during that raid. 47 ShAP lost 2 crews: Pilot Ml. Lt. Fedor V. Turin (or Gurin), KiA Gunner Ml. S-t. Vasili S. Pikanin (KiA) Pilot Ml. Lt. Vladimir I. Zakharov, KiA Gunner Ml. S-t Ivan I. Pryakhin, KiA 47 ShAp logbook states: 8 Il-2 came under attack of 8 Fw190 and lost 2 a/c. Both Il-2 were shot up by fighters, and crashed in flames in the sea 8-9 km SW from Libau. Both crew killed. This two losses almost for sure were victims of Stabsswarm (Stab II./JG54) - claims at 11:46-11:48, ~10km SW from Libau, both Rudorffer and Tangermann claimed 2 Il-2 each, in almost same time and location. So, it could be shared victories to both pilots, or 2 confirmed to Tangermann (and 0 to Rudorffer), or 2 confirmed to Rudorffer (and 0 to Tangermann). After that, Rudorffer and Tangermann continued chasing Il-2 formation and claimed 9 more Il-2 shot down, with actual loss = 0 (number of damaged Il-2 is unknown, but some Il-2 could be damaged by AAA). So, all those 9 claims are pure overclaim. Note: second claim at 11:53, wich "jumped" far to west, is probably typo of staff cleric. At 11:54 (when Rudorffer claimed his almost last victory) Lt. Thyben claimed Il-2 (not painted on the map below) in location of first Tangermann+Rudorffer claims. But it is for pure overclaim, as we knowm that both Il-2 were lost during first engagement. Also, 2 Il-2 were claimed by Obfhr. Ludwig Böes of 2./JG54, a half-an-hour later, and far to west from location. I have no idea, who were those Il-2 (no losses or even other operations in that area on that day). So, seems that both claims of Böes are pure overclaim. http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/files/Ber...r_28_10_44.jpg There was a second raid on that day (som hours later), but it is another story. |
Re: Libau 28 October 1944
Wow Evgeny
Excellent work!!! Once again one sees how important maps are for understanding of military history. Juha |
Re: Libau 28 October 1944
Juha I completely disagree!
Evgeny next time we EXPECT to see nothing less than a fully animated version! Rob Romero Btw Evegny, how did you make the map. Look for a PM from me. |
Re: Libau 28 October 1944
Rob - call it magic :)
Seriously, I used grids rom TW lists, then I used LUMA (exellent thing - thx Andreas!!!), and used PhotoShop, when I merged all maps to one comprehencive map. |
Re: Libau 28 October 1944
Nice map, looks like a lot of work..
Evgeny, do you know where 47 ShAP and 8 GvShAP were based? 47 maybe at Palanga, where there was an airfield (with 51MTAP IIRC)? |
Re: Libau 28 October 1944
Yes, Palanga.
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Re: Libau 28 October 1944
Gentlemen,
I’ve been working on my Air War Courland book in the last month, and remembered this interesting thread. Care should be taken in describing the Courland claims of Rudorffer and his Jagdgeschwader 54 colleagues as “pure overclaims” and the like. As far as I can tell, there were quite catastrophic Soviet losses over Courland on this day, and on several of the other ‘big days’ for J.G. 54. Here is my count for 28 October 1944, taking into account some, but not all, of the Soviet records: IL-2: 20 failed to return, nine force landed Yak-9: 2 failed to return Yak-3: 2 failed to return, one force landed Airacobra: 4 failed to return Total: 28 failed to return, 10 force landed Several of those aircraft initially reported as “failed to return” had actually force landed, and the crews returned to base later. German claims for the day were: 26 aircraft destroyed by fighters 31 aircraft destroyed by anti-aircraft gunners (given the times and locations, I suspect some were double claims) Total: 57 aircraft destroyed So pretty acceptable victory claims by the Germans. I’d like to credit Andrey Kuznetsov for kindly digging into the Russian documents for me. On another matter, the old myth of 44 aerial victories by J.G. 54 on 14 December 1944, and 56 by the unit on 15 December 1944, should be killed once and for all (it seems to have started with Werner Haupt’s Army Group North). Total German claims for those days were as follows: 14 December 1944 J.G. 54: 22 Anti-aircraft gunners: 22 15 December 1944 J.G. 54: 28 Anti-aircraft gunners: 28 For a little taste of my Courland research, please download the Christmas in Courland eArticle, available here: http://www.airwarpublications.com/e-articles All the best, Andrew A. Air War Publications – www.facebook.com/airwarpublications |
Re: Libau 28 October 1944
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Thank you for your information, I'm looking forward to the book! I think it's appropriate to mention here that Osprey's recent "Pe-2 Guards Units" book by Khazanov and Medved has a table on page 88 entitled "Official Soviet Statistics for Operation Arcturus". For the 28th, it reads: Date 28 October Sorties 142 Il-2s 70 Pe-2s 25 Losses 7 Results 1 transport As you can see, the reported losses are far lower than the ones listed by you based on Andrey's sources. Could you or Andrey explain why these "official statistics" I quoted above do not reflect reality? Unfortunately, Khazanov and Medved cite no source, as always in Osprey publications. Regards, Paul Thompson |
Re: Libau 28 October 1944
Hi Paul,
Thanks for the response. I should emphasise that I'm only in the early stages of matching up the records of the two sides, and my German information is much more complete than my Soviet information. That said, my loss figures come from the operational reports of 3.VA, plus the VVS KBF figures that Andrey Kuznetsov provided earlier in this thread, so there can be no doubt about them. 3.VA alone undertook 614 sorties on 28 October, so I'm not sure which units are referred to in the Osprey book. Cheers, Andrew A. Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com |
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You’re welcome. I hope that others can help you fill out the Russian side of the story! I suspected that your data covered a broader set of events than the Pe-2 book, so I’ll provide the data from that book below for clarity: 10 October – 10 Pe-2 and 3 Yak-9 shot down, 5 of the Pe-2 crews killed, Capt Yuriy Kozhevnikov of 12 GvBAP landed behind enemy lines and was killed while crossing the frontline, his crew evaded successfully. 27 October 130 56 32 Losses 10 Results 1 tanker 28 October 142 70 25 Losses 7 Results 1 transport 30 October 148 68 30 Losses 15 Results 2 transports 14 December 175 83 27 Losses 16 Results 6 transports and 1 tanker 22 December 180 74 26 Losses 14 Results 3 transports Totals 775 351 140 Losses 62 Results 12 transports and 2 tankers The table is clearly incomplete, for example the 15 December raid is not mentioned at all. Do you have the numbers for 15 December, by any chance? Comparing the figures with Andrey’s post, I infer that the sorties and losses above refer only to VVS KBF missions, restricted to attacks on Liepaja on the dates mentioned in the report. Given these restrictions, the overall Soviet losses must have been much higher, as you described. Regards, Paul Thompson |
Re: Libau 28 October 1944
Be careful with Khazanov's research and recheck it. I've found him switching days a few times in his 1941 books to make the Germans look bad when the facts would have done so from other times.
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Re: Libau 28 October 1944
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Warning understood, but I have no way of checking Khazanov, unfortunately, apart from appealing to the collective knowledge of this forum's members. For an example of how Khazanov can bend facts, see Laurent Rizzotti's post from last year - http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showpo...9&postcount=17 The key quote is "Khazanov and Medved are close to truth for [German] East Front losses in this period, but their figures included damaged and destroyed aircraft." Regards, Paul Thompson |
Re: Libau 28 October 1944
Hi Paul,
I'd say you might be right about the figures referring only to the VVS KBF. Regarding 15 December 1944, Pe-2s of the 3.VA bomber units flew 151 sorties. Cheers, Andrew A. Air War Publications - www.facebook.com/airwarpublications |
Re: Libau 28 October 1944
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my reading on Khazanov's and Medved's book is that the figures are definitely on only the VVS KBF losses during their attacks on Leipaja harbour. And Andrew, thanks for the very interesting data. Juha |
Re: Libau 28 October 1944
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I think it's the most plausible explanation. Thank you for the sortie numbers. Is there any suggestion that 3 VA raided Liepaja on this day, instead of VVS KBF? Quote:
I agree, but as you know, it is never explicitly explained in their text. I hope Andrew's book will eventually answer all the questions! Regards, Paul Thompson |
Re: Libau 28 October 1944
Hello Paul
not explicitly but IMHO fairly obviously, the name of the chapter in which the oper. is told, "Guards Bomber Air Regiments of Naval Air Forces", the unit inside which story the oper is told, 12th GvBAP (ex 73rd BAP) and on the p. 86 "...the Soviets planned to attack targets in Liapaja simultaneously using naval dive-bombers, ground-attack a/c and torpedo-bombers. The operation, codenamed Arcturus... Juha |
Re: Libau 28 October 1944
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It turns out that you are completely right. The Russian Internet has turned up the following extract from a book, about the VVS KBF Liepaja raids. I hope I may be permitted to violate the forum rules and paste a long extract in a foreign language, Russian. The reason is that I think the subject is of wide interest and automatic translation wouldn't do it justice. Regards, Paul Thompson The link and extract follow: http://www.litmir.net/br/?b=145227&p=38 "Безусловно, немецкое командование вполне осознавало значение либавского порта. Поэтому для наших летчиков Либава не была легкой целью. По данным воздушной разведки, порт и город прикрывали 17 батарей среднекалиберной и 12 — малокалиберной зенитной артиллерии. В отражении налетов также участвовали зенитки, установленные на кораблях и транспортах. Активно противодействовали нашей авиации и немецкие истребители, базировавшиеся на ближайших аэродромах. Первый удар по Либаве состоялся 16 сентября. В дальнейшем на основании опыта первых налетов уничтожение транспортов противника в Либаве проводилось в рамках ряда последовательных операций, проводившихся по типовому плану и получивших в штабе ВВС КБФ общее название «Арктур-1». Всего было проведено пять таких массированных налетов. Кроме того, несколько раз Либаву атаковали меньшими силами (см. таблицу). Первый налет 16 сентября принес и первый успех. Был поврежден прорыватель минных заграждений № 18. На тральщике R-167 вышла из строя главная энергетическая установка, корабль пришлось отправлять на ремонт в Гдыню. Однако и наши потери составили восемь бомбардировщиков Пе-2 и десять истребителей Як-9, в т. ч. один разведчик. 10 октября при налете на Либаву было потеряно два Як-9 и семь Пе-2. Немцы же отмечают только потери личного состава на транспорте «General Steuben». 22 октября два прямых попадания получил плавучий док грузоподъемностью 1500 тонн. Кроме того, были тяжело повреждены пароход «Didenhofen» и буксир, легко — миноносец Т-23 (близким разрывом борт корабля был изрешечен осколками) и эскортный корабль F-3. Поднятые на перехват немецкие истребители в воздушном бою сбили три «пешки» и четыре Як-9. 27 октября перевернулся и затонул танкер люфтваффе «Vacuum», сильно пострадал транспорт «Dieke Rickmers», от попадания бомбы возник пожар в носовом трюме парохода «Gotenland». Еще несколько судов были легко повреждены. Кроме того, взорвался железнодорожный состав с боеприпасами. Наши потери — семь штурмовиков и два Пе-2. На следующий день снова пострадал «Gotenland», загорелся транспорт «Braunsberg» с 300 тоннами бензина на борту. К счастью для немцев, пожар удалось потушить. От близкого взрыва авиабомбы крупного калибра была повреждена энергетическая установка миноносца Т-8 (корабль не мог давать больше 21 узла хода). Осколками изрешетило борта и надстройки миноносцев Т-3 и Т-12, а также тральщика М-443. Имелись потери и в экипажах этих кораблей (на Т-3 было ранено до десятка моряков). Мы потеряли три штурмовика Ил-2. Еще два истребителя Як-9 столкнулись в воздухе, их пилоты погибли. При налете 30 октября были подожжены транспорты «August» (900 брт) и «Bukarest» (4475 брт). Еще несколько судов были легко повреждены. Но этот успех обошелся флотским авиаторам дорогой ценой. На свои аэродромы не вернулись два А-20 и десять Пе-2. В воздушном бою были сбиты два ЛаГГ-3 и один Як-9. 22 ноября в ходе налета штурмовиков 11-й штурмовой авиационной дивизии получил тяжелые повреждения и сел на грунт транспорт «Adde ТгаЬег» (2575 брт). На миноносце Т-21 и пароходе «Wishafen» имелись потери среди членов экипажей. За это нам пришлось заплатить всего одним Ил-2, сбитым зенитной артиллерией. 27 ноября порт снова атаковали «ильюшины» из 11-й шад. В результате налета получил прямое попадание транспорт «Eberhard Essberger» (5061 брт). От близкого взрыва авиабомбы был поврежден ниже ватерлинии корпус судна «Memelland». У нас пять штурмовиков сбиты зенитным огнем, один не вернулся с боевого задания. Наибольший эффект имели налеты на Либаву, проведенные 14–15 декабря ВВС КБФ (силами 8-й минно-торпедной и 11-й штурмовой авиационных дивизий) и 3-й воздушной армией 1-го Прибалтийского фронта. В общей сложности за двое суток были потоплены пароходы «Otterberg» (1293 брт), «Clara L.M. Russ» (1600 брт), «Erika Schunemann» (1177 брт, на борту 800 тонн боеприпасов), «Minna Kords» (951 брт) буксиры «Windau» и «Wega», выгорел и перевернулся танкер «Inka» (470 брт). Получили повреждения транспорты «Воrе 6» (1456 брт), «Trude Schunemann» (1260 брт), «Lutjehorn» (1952 брт), «Lappland» (7644 брт), «Tanga» (5722 брт), «Minna Cors» (951 брт), «Masuren» (2383 брт), «Соrоna», буксир «Hamburg», водолазное судно «Kiel». Досталось и боевым кораблям кригсмарине. Миноносец Т-10 от близкого разрыва тяжелой авиабомбы получил подводную пробоину. Кроме того, были повреждены руль, топливные цистерны и радиорубка. На миноносце Т-1 осколки бомб изрешетили левый борт, в т. ч. и ниже ватерлинии, мостик и надстройки. Временно прекратил работу судоремонтный завод «Тосмаре», в цеха которого было не менее двадцати прямых попаданий. Правда, за достигнутый успех нашим летчикам пришлось заплатить очень высокую цену. Участвовавшие в ударе 14 декабря 47-й и 8-й гвардейский штурмовые полки потеряли 13 штурмовиков Ил-2 и 11 экипажей. Среди погибших был и командир 47-го шап, ас-штурмовик (259 боевых вылетов), Герой Советского Союза подполковник Н.Г. Степанян. Топмачтовики из 51-го минно-торпедного авиационного полка недосчитались трех А-20 и двух экипажей. Из состава прикрытия (9-й, 21-й и 14-й гвардейский истребительные полки) не вернулся один и разбился на вынужденной посадке еще один Як-9. Удар на следующий день силами 3-й воздушной армии (в налете принимали участие 135 бомбардировщиков и 162 истребителя) обошелся нам в 24 потерянных самолета. Самым неудачным, судя по всему, был налет 22 декабря. По немецким данным, в этот день в Либаве были уничтожены всего два небольших кораблика: таможенное судно «Reporter» и полицейский катер SW31. Наши же потери были несоразмерно велики. Истребители противника сбили один Як-9 (еще два истребителя не вернулись на свой аэродром после боя) и пять Пе-2. Еще по одному Як-9 и ЛаГГ-3, поврежденных в воздушном бою, разбились при вынужденной посадке. Немецкая зенитная артиллерия сбила три А-20 и одну «пешку». В довершение всего, при вылете на контроль результатов этого налета «фоккерами» из «Грюнхерц» был сбит еще один ЛаГГ-3. Заметим, что использование в последних ударах по Либаве в качестве топмачтовиков бомбардировщиков типа А-20, с нашей точки зрения, не совсем оправдано. То же число «бостонов», сбрасывающих крупнокалиберные бомбы с высот за пределами эффективного огня малокалиберной зенитной артиллерии, могло бы добиться больших успехов с меньшими потерями. А в качестве топмачтовиков вполне успешно сработали бы штурмовики Ил-2. Причем, судя по всему, к такому же выводу пришло и командование ВВС Северного флота, именно так (как обычные бомбардировщики) использовавшее «бостоны» на завершающем этапе Петсамо-Киркенесской операции. Немного отвлекаясь от основной темы, отметим, что свою лепту в удары по Либаве внесли бомбардировщики Авиации дальнего действия. Скорее всего, на счету экипажей АДД — повреждение в ночь на 15 октября подводной лодки U-717. Накануне субмарина вернулась с моря в Либаву, а на исходе 14 октября в ходе налета наших дальних бомбардировщиков рядом с лодкой взорвалась бомба. Были повреждены надстройка, цистерна главного балласта, несколько небольших цистерн, один торпедный аппарат. Двое подводников погибли, трое получили ранения различной тяжести. «У-боту» пришлось вместо возвращения на позицию идти на ремонт в Данциг. Вообще АДД уделяла довольно много внимания портам балтийского побережья, занятым противником. Так, в ночь на 10 октября немецкие документы зафиксировали уничтожение в ходе налета советских бомбардировщиков на станцию Либава железнодорожного состава с боеприпасами." |
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