"... lazy people should be send to the East(front)...
 

Hi,

some time ago, I read the Jochen Prien book about JG 1 & 11. If I recall right, in the second band the notes from Günter Lützow in early 44 (from one of conferences about Day figther in RLV) was listed. One point is for me not explanable:

"... lazy people should be send to the east..." ( I read the book in german that is my free translation.

If we say, that the west front and RLV was more dengerous then the east front, why somebody should send to the war where he has more chance to survive, even he is lazy ???

Re: "... lazy people should be send to the East(front)...
 

maybe it was meant : "lazy" people have to fight on the ground with the infantry :(
but the best way would be to post the text here in german.
there are enough germans around .

Re: "... lazy people should be send to the East(front)...
 

Ok, the text in german was some like "... faule Leute schicken nach Osten...".

The conference was in the first quater of 1944. I don't know, that in that time the flying personal was sent to the infantery...

Re: "... lazy people should be send to the East(front)...
 

The Ostfront was seen as a meat grinder, so in general any comments of being sent to the Eastern Front was tantamount to sort of a death sentence.

If Lutzow made a such a comment it would have been in that spirit.

In terms of the Air War, you might draw the conclusion that at least Lutzow did not regard the Eastern (air) Front as a cozy assignment.

OTOH, the above might be out of context and reflect a tour of duty on the ground...

Anyway up to 1944 any assignment in (north-)western europe was seen as relatively cozy compared to the Eastern Front, the Jagdwaffe in the west lived in relative luxury.

Re: "... lazy people should be send to the East(front)...
 

Gentlemen,

the remark in the Lützow notes here in question was only one of a number of similar statements that were aiming at so called " unproductive " fighter pilots in the ranks of the units on home defense; something quite similar had happened before to the fighter pilots serving in the Mediterrannean theatre of war. What it was meant to say is that pilots who in the eyes of the Luftwaffe leaders were not aggressive enough and did not show sufficient courage and fighting spirit when countering the US heavy bombers were to be degraded and sent to the Eastern front as foot soldiers, where they could see further service as canon fodder. The German word "faul" in this sense would not translate as lazy but rather as rotten.

In the summer of 1943 the III. Gruppe of JG 11 had one Staffel - the 7./JG 11 - that had the additional and rather dubious task to evaluate pilots in combat, whose battle spirit had become questionable - if justified or not cannot be judged in retrospect - at their former units; it is not known so far, how long this doubtful honour was bestowed on 7./JG 11, as apparently later in the year the evaluation was transferred to a Sonderstaffel within JG 11, although precious little documentary traces can be found. What can be found in the Lützow notes however is that pilots of said evaluation unit who did not score a claim within three sorties against the US bombers were to be sent to the Eastern front and this definitely not as fighter pilots any more.

This whole thinking is typical for the cynical and inhumane attitude of the higher echelons of the Wehrmacht including the Luftwaffe; what was the ordinary duty for millions of German infantery soldiers - to serve in the hell of the Eastern Front - who had no choice at all, was deemed as an especially terrifying form of punishment for the pilots of the Luftwaffe who had the misfortune to fall in disgrace with their leaders on the accusation of cowardice in the face of the enemy.

I have yet to research the question, if and who suffered this fate in said unit of JG 11; there are however other examples, where pilots, including officers, were sent to field units in the East, so that this was no hollow threat.

Jochen Prien

Re: "... lazy people should be send to the East(front)...
 

But this thinking is not only cynical and inhumane rather not productive. I thought that LW suffers the lack of flying personal and not only in figther arm but also in e.g. Schlachtgeschwader. The problem of "unproductive" pilots arised already earlier. If I recall correct, the Generall Keller (Chief of Luftflotte 1) have suggested already in 1942 to remove such pilots from the fighter arm and transfer it to close ground support...
I could not believe, that this idea of Lützow was supported by higher LW commando in this phase of war - send the pilots to ground forces, which education take at least 2-3 years.

Re: "... lazy people should be send to the East(front)...
 

I have always wondered if the 'East Front sanction' was a myth or not. In all my experience of WWII readings I have not found a real case of such a sanction, while I have found tens of cases of people jugded or degraded. Usually a man committing an offense against the military law was sentenced to jail or worse, maybe they were sent to the East Front after that but I doubt it. East Front was an active front, and probably the worse, but I doubt the German military will officialy recognize it as a punishment.

As for pilots being degraded and sent to the East Front as infantry, I have no example of that. I remember 3 cases of pilots having disiplin problems. One was on the East Front and ended in Africa, one in the Med and remained there, one on the West and went to Mourmansk front IIRC.

Re: "... lazy people should be send to the East(front)...
 

The Eastern Front was a meat grinder, and getting sent there to serve in the infantry was not a happy circumstance. For most, it ended up being a death sentence.

Re: "... lazy people should be send to the East(front)...
 

This thread has been an excellent reminder why I don´t buy any PC books from J.P. Again he displayed his Hannes Heerisms.

Re: "... lazy people should be send to the East(front)...
 

Jukka
what’s the problem? IMHO Prien gave an excellent answer to the question and also gave useful background information.

Regards
Juha

Re: "... lazy people should be send to the East(front)...
 

Jukka,

Without any context I consider your reaction to be unwarranted and offending.

Consider this to be a warning.

Re: "... lazy people should be send to the East(front)...
 

i thought you own the book ?
"faule leute schicken nach osten " is a poor german ;)
please write the german text .

@Jukka Juutinen :rolleyes:
i think,Jochen Prien´s explanation was pretty good.

Re: "... lazy people should be send to the East(front)...
 

It's not excerpt but the sense of Lützow's word. Therefore it is my poor german and not Lützow ;)

@Jukka Juutinen I could not also understand your reaction

Re: "... lazy people should be send to the East(front)...
 

Hello kalender1973,
IIRC, and correct me if I remember this wrong, in RAF BC if a pilot was regarded as suffering LMF (lack of moral fibre) he got some sort of punishment and was then often transferred to ground forces.

Regards
Juha

Re: "... lazy people should be send to the East(front)...
 

In the RAF personnel judged "LMF" could indeed receive some kind of punishment, usually including demotion and probably transfer to some fairly demeaning duties. This would however be within the RAF. He would not be transferred to some other branch of the armed services, or placed into a combat environment. This would have been judged detrimental to the fighting abilities of any recipient unit. You may be misjudging the term "grounded". This simply means being removed from flying duties, and could be for several reasons other than LMF.

Re: "... lazy people should be send to the East(front)...
 

Gentlemen,
could somebody or Jukka himself explain to me the phrase:"Hannes Heerisms"?

Re: "... lazy people should be send to the East(front)...
 

Both Graham and my upcoming comments are off-topic, but, I think, of interest. Doug Harvey in his superb book, "Boys, bombs and brussel sprouts," on flying in Bomber Command during the war, was very passionate on this matter: "Faced with what they figured impossible odds, many aircrew simply quit. It was rare for an entire crew to quit but nearly every crew had one member pack it in. Panic-stricken lest the refusal to fly became endemic, Bomber Command reacted with ferocious cruelty against those unfortunates. Each was immediately stripped of his rank and banished overnight to an Aircrew Refresher Training Centre. In reality this was a punishment camp where the kid's spirit was destroyed. Everyone who had the courage to march into the CO's office and say, "That's it. I quit. I can't fly anymore," was branded with the tag, Lack of Moral Fibre or LMF as it was universally known. This was the most loathsome expression the RAF could find for a man who had, to them, failed in the face of the enemy. To the everlasting shame of the RCAF, this stupid and inhuman practice was adopted without hesitation and was applied with great vigour that winter (1943-1944). Despite the stigma and the immediate, horrible consequences, a kid who could no longer force himself into his bomber simply said, "I will not fly again, no matter what you do to me." ....

"I lost two crew members who could not continue to fly operations any longer. One was Ray, our wireless operator, who baled out on his sixth trip, preferring prisoner of war confinement to the known horrors of flying ops. The other, Harry, our flight engineer, couldn't continue past seven trips and decided to ground himself. All of our crew were concerned, but no one was critical or anything but sympathetic and understanding. Both Ray and Harry had worked hard, and I considered them very capable airmen, but they simply couldn't endure the strain of operational flying. Nothing difficult to understand. Nothing dishonourable in my eyes. They had certainly tried. The mistake, if one was made, lay with the initial aircrew standards board that had selected them for flying duties."

The book from which the above quote was taken, is, in my estimation, the very best book I have ever read on the life of one pilot flying off his tour in Bomber Command.

Now, if an aircrew trainee failed out during his courses, he could be sent to the army, but because of the money already spent on his training, usually he ended up in another air force trade.

Re: "... lazy people should be send to the East(front)...
 

Graham, thanks for the correction.

Juha