Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Seeking information on the fates of Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512) and Bf. 109E (wnr.2312). Any details appreciated.

Bill Norman
(website: www.billnorman.co.uk)

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Hi Bill,

for Bf 109E-3 W.Nr. 2312:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...ght=ryaf+emils

kind regards

Newcomer

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

ER+GW was the so-called Überführungskennzeichen (limited in time) not the Stammkennzeichen ----- ER ... Erla.

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Newcomer, RolandF and Rasmussen, thanks for your information. RolandF - just so that I can absolutely sure - am I correct in thinking that your post relates only to wnr 1512?

Bill Norman

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Yes, only WNr 1512. The loss is listed as a Bf 109E-4.
Thank you Rasmussen for the clarification.

Regards

Roland

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

RolandF,
Thanks very much for the extra information - very useful indeed! Did the information come from a Luftwaffe source? Would it be possible for me to obtain a copy of the original document?

Bill

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Does anyone have any servicing details (including crashes/repairs) for Bf.109E-3/4 (wnr. 1512) during 1940-1941?

Bill Norman

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Hi

The 1512 was in Oktober 1940 by the E.Staffel/JG 54 in Bergen.

Greetins Christian

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Thank you, Christian.
Bill

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Hello.

I also have the following loss record for 1512:

http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=148895

So it seems it was converted to E-7 standard and used in Africa after the incident while in JG 1:

http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=128239

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Thank you, Andreas.
Bill

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Anreas,
Do you know when 1512 arrived in N.Africa and how long it was there?

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Hi.

No, I do not - the only thing I know is that it is not on the list of aircraft that were initially set up for trop conversion for the campaign in North Africa.

I am currently working on this list for publication - just a few details to add.

I do not know if it is of interest to anyone - but this list is in effect a roster of all the Bf 109 assigned to I./JG 27 at the time of departure for North Africa.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Is this the BA-MA list?

Greetings
Rasmussen

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Hello.

It originates from BA/MA, yes.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Hi Roland F, Fascinating information and great reading. I have looked at the links that Andreas Brekken provides and it states the Pilot as Fw Hermann, Friedrich. Do you have the full name of this Pilot as your post says Fw Georg Hermann? In addition Andreas Brekken states the location as Flug PLatz Bergen in his link, not Bergen Op Zoom. Please can you help clarify this. Thank you. :-)

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

My info comes from Prien´s JFV 5 p.37. Bergen-op-Zoom, as listed there, is most likely because I./JG 1 was operating from Dutch airfields. Same goes for 1st name "Georg".

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Hi Christian,

From the last post by Roland F, there seems to be some mix up as to the location of wnr. 1512 (Bergen Op Zoom seems to be getting mixed up with Bergen Norway). Please can you clarify your information? Thanks

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Hi Andreas,

Great information with regards to wnr.1512 But if you read the last posts by Roland F and Christian, there seems to be some confusion between 1JG1 Bergen Op Zoom NL and JG54 Bergen Norway during 1940/41
Would you have any actual confirmation of the location via a copy of Luftwaffe actual documents?

There is a statement that Prien's book is referenced in this, but not sure where does Prien get his information? It would be interesting to know.

It would be good to clear this confusion. Many Thanks

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Hi.

The location in my loss record is written exactly as it is in the original loss record. During WWII there was no airfield called 'Bergen' in Norway.

If the location had been for example 'Bei Bergen' it would be another discussion.

We have Bergen-op-Zoom and we have Bergen in Germany (Saxony) - I do not know if there was an airfield at the latter location.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Hi Andreas,

I hope you do not mind me asking, but is it possible to see a copy of this page from this document (Original Luftwaffe Loss Record)? It would relieve all doubt.

I only ask that because sometimes people offer information that is from books written after the WWII and this information is not always 100% correct. As in some misinterpretation what has been said in this example from other posts.

I don't want to offend anybody by saying the above, but just like to see the actual information source. This way all doubt is taken away.

Many Thanks and Kind Regards

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Hi.

Please see the attached scan from the original loss record. Note also that the loss is filed under the Luftflotte 3 header - thus it is not likely that it occured under Luftflotte 5 jurisdiction (Norway/Northern Finnland).

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Hi Andreas,
That is good to see. That puts to away any doubt - Well done.

Thanks Mr Schmitt

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Hi Andreas and Mr Schmitt,

Actually there is a THIRD airfield called Bergen. It's just west of the city of Alkmaar and in the province North-Holland in The Netherlands at roughly 52o38’48”N, 04o41’27”E. That’s the airfield mentioned in the GQM returns.

To make things more difficult, this airfield was sometimes abbreviated by the Germans as Bergen am S. (Bergen am See) while Bergen op Zoom was abbreviated as Bergen o. Z. Needless to say both can easily be mixed up, not only now, but also 70 years ago!

Erg/JG54 was also located at this airfield, so Bergen in Norway is not relevant, neither is Bergen op Zoom.

Anyway, I’m pretty sure that Wnr 1512 crash landed near Bergen as I have a clear picture of that. The mishap occurred 600 metres south west of the most south west corner of the airfield.

Hope to have clarified the matter,

Hans

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Hi Hans,

Really good information :0) You are very specific. Can I ask how you have the knowledge of the exact location on the Airfield?
Do you have some pictures or Luftwaffe documentation referring to this?

Regards Mr Schmitt

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Perhaps also We can unfold the mystery of this Aircraft wnr. 1512 being flown in 1940 by JG54. Can any member add to this?

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Hello Mr Schmitt,

I'm quite familiair with the former airfield Bergen, having now 1.300+ pictures and documents with regard to the history of that airfield.

I think it's not a real mystery regarding Wnr 1512. It's not unusual that aircraft served with several units. E./JG54 left airfield Bergen at 15th November 1940, 1./JG1 arrived there at 27th December 1940. Perhaps Wnr 1512 was in revision or repairs when E./JG54 left and went from one to the other unit on the same airfield.

Regards
Hans

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Hi Hans,

Please can you give more information as to how you know Exactly where 1512 crashed. Do you have a photograph of the crash?

Thanks

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Hello Mr Schmitt,

The situation on the photo is still recognizable nowadays. The location has been confirmed by a farmer who's parental farm is visible on the picture.

Regards,
Hans

P.S. PM sent

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Hello, Hans

Thanks for your additional information.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Yes "we" have:
http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=7444

I think it's that one: matches with RolandF data and with Hans description. I recognize the cows!

Regards, Franck.

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

That is a great picture. It would be great if there is a more clear picture or a copy of the original. The reason is is that the werk nummer is painted just near the swastika and that would clear any doubt. It is a really good photo. I wonder who owns it?
Well done !!!

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Let's Hans to confirm it is the one first before jumping to ceiling!
If it's the same he said HE got one original ...
And, if you're living close to the area, he said, too, the farm in the background was still existing.... You can check then!!!

Regards, Franck.

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Where did the information of the Hermann incident for 18-Jun come from? Or more specifically that the machine was coded 'black 6'? I have the loss, but no code.

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Hello Jim,

The "source" doesn't indicate tactical number; that's what you mean?
I don't have this volume; difficult to check.

And, after his brilliant demonstration Hans doesn't confirm if the photo and farm match with the one I did put in earlier post.

Thanks Jim to raise this.

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Dear all,

The Bf 109 on the picture is Wnr 1512. The farm on the background is that of family Bakker.

With regard to the cows on the photograph: during the crash landing a cow was mortally hit, loosing a leg. The surviving herd wasn't very impressed as cows were seen walking over the wing(s) some time after the incident. Wonder if part of the reported 40% damage was caused by that!

Regards,
Hans

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Dear Hans,
thank you very much for your answer. Kind of you.
I really did want to let kind of speculation bad memory!
Cheers, Franck.

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Hi Hans, Fantastic information. Under the Swastika on the vertical stabilizer there is painted the werk nummer. Is it possible to see this in the original photo? Many thanks Mr Schmitt

Re: Bf.109E-3 (wnr. 1512); Bf. 109E- (?) (wnr.2312)
 

Thank you to all who answered my initial questions regarding Bf 109E-3 (wnr. 1512) - and to those persons who provided answers to questions raised by other participants. Actually, I posed the initial questions on behalf of a friend who was reluctant to become directly involved on the site: he simply raised the questions and I posted them. Members of this forum might be pleased to learn that my friend was so impressed by the help he has received that he has asked me to thank you all - and this I am very pleased to do! He has also asked me to announce that he is currently restoring the airframe to static condition (actually, I know for a fact that he has been working on the project for years!) The wreckage came into his possession some years ago and was recently it was reunited with its main data plate.

He has also asked me to point out that when the aircraft has been restored, it will probably be more original than the example currently being restored to fly. Thus, his No. 1512 will not be a replica. What could be re-straightened and repaired has been put back into the project: to date, there has been very little new build. There are many original parts going into the aircraft and any replacements are period 1940 or earlier. Even the electrics and hydraulics will be fully functional. He tells me that, when finished, his 109 will be just as though it was ready to be flown into combat - and in one way or another, your contributions will have helped.

Bill Norman (website: www.billnorman.co.uk)