14th FG P-38 lost on 15 june 1943
 

May anyone give me some informations about the fate of the P-38 of the 48th FS, 14th FG lost on that day (MACR 535)?
Did anyone saw the aircraft crashing? Was 2nd Leutnant F.W. Browne the pilot? Which was his ultimate fate?
Thank you

Re: 14th FG P-38 lost on 15 june 1943
 

Hi Gianandrea,

2Lt. F.W.Browne date of death is recorded as 15th June 1943.

Ref:ABMC

There were raids on Milo,Sciacca, Castelvetrano and Boccadifalco, Sicily as well as a raid on an airfield at Bo Rizzo and radio stations near Marsala.
PR recces were flown over the Italian mainland, Scicily and Sardinia.
This was from ref: Combat Chronology of the USAAF.

Hope this helps.

Alex

ps
P38's serial number was 43-2466

Re: 14th FG P-38 lost on 15 june 1943
 

Gianandrea,
There were two P-38Gs lost on June ,15,1943 by the 14th FG.
The serial number of the other one was 43-2465 (one digit different!)
Are you still looking for the identity of the Italian captured P-38?

Carlos

Re: 14th FG P-38 lost on 15 june 1943
 

Alex and Carlos,
thank you for your answers.
Yes, I'm trying to collect some additional informations in order to identify
the P-38 landed at Capoterra on 12 june 1943.
Does anyone know anything more from american side about that episode?
The pilot became a POW and the aircraft - as each historian of Regia Aeronautica knows- was used shortly by R.A.

Thank you in advance.

PS: the aircraft had Squadron code painted on the tail boom but it had been covered by darker paint by the italians. From a picture the code could be LM or UN (respect. 71st and 94th FS) but it's not sure because the paint has already covered it when the picture was taken. However, the documents contained in the microfilms of the AFHRA records of these two units (and of the other units of the 1st and 14th FG) don't mention this episode at all.

Re: 14th FG P-38 lost on 15 june 1943
 

Hi,

From a book I had at Xmas.

Lockheed P38 Lightning in Italian Service, by Marco Mattoli.

Has a couple of photos of this P38 in Italian markings and also has the date you mention, 12th June 1943 as the date the US pilot landed at Capoterra near Cagliari, Sardinia by mistake.

Good luck

Alex

Re: 14th FG P-38 lost on 15 june 1943
 

Gianandrea,

I've wondered about the identity of this P-38 ever since buying "Stranger in A Strange Land" in 1989!
Perhaps the other P-38G lost on June 15,1943,sn 43-2465, is the correct airplane? Another possible way is to find a listing of USAAF personnel taken POW during this time and doing a process of elimination.
Too bad the 14th FG has never published a Group history.
Someone had some speculation that the plane was flown by a ferry squadron but no information has surfaced.

Carlos

Re: 14th FG P-38 lost on 15 june 1943
 

Alex and Carlos, thanks for your attention.

I already know the Mattioli book: those two pictures of the P-38 are well known in Italy.

I've checked the POW database at the www.armyairforces.com looking for POW reports amongst 11 and 21 june 1943 related to operations in Sardinia but I've found anything that seems to fit to this episode.

About the 15 june 1943 MACR: according to the MACR database of the same website, 432465 was a P-38 of the 4th FG.
On that day 14th FG lost two P-38 in Sicily: one pilot was Browne, the other one was taken prisonner by italians but then he came back to his unit.
I've read it some years ago in microfilm A0741 from AFHRA.

Best regards

Gianandrea

Re: 14th FG P-38 lost on 15 june 1943
 

Hi Gianandrea,

Perhaps someone can confirm, but I think that the 4FG loss will only relate to a pilot from the 4th , not the aircraft that may have been from another Unit.

Alex

Re: 14th FG P-38 lost on 15 june 1943
 

The 4th FG is a misprint. It has to be the 14th FG since the 4th FG did not fly P-38s. The 12th AF listing in y MACR database also clearly identifies the 14th FG.

Re: 14th FG P-38 lost on 15 june 1943
 

Thank you Carlos.
So, that P38 was the second one lost that day by 48th FS in Sicily: as I read in the AFHRA microfilm, the pilot was seized by italians but then it came back to his unit (after the italian surrender in Sicily?). But in the POW database I've not found a POW report of 14th FG personnel on 15 june 1943: probably that was due to the short time he was POW?

Gianandrea

Re: 14th FG P-38 lost on 15 june 1943
 

Hi Kaki,


Reported 4th loss for 15th June 1943 was 43-2465 (MACR 20).
Another loss this date was 2Lt. Fredrick W. Browne (14FG)
who was in 43-2466 (MACR 535).

Anyone any further info on the loss of 43-2465 or can provide a copy of the MACR?

Alex

Re: 14th FG P-38 lost on 15 june 1943
 

Alex: Have you posted this on http://www.armyairforces.com ?

Re: 14th FG P-38 lost on 15 june 1943
 

Gianandrea,

Ok, I finally saw the second picture of the captured P-38G
(http://1stfighter.org/photos/Misc/P3...0Italians.html
It sure looks like the number on the side of the boom is "24". (Can someone else do a photo shop touchup.?)
My hypothesis is that this is a P38G from the 48th FS,14th FG.

Facts: Only the 14th Fg used a numerical system at this time. The 1st used a alphabetic system (eg UN-C, HV-B) changing to a numerical system in February 1944. The 82nd FG always used letters.
The "24" places the P-38 in the 48th FS (1-30 48 FS, 31-60 49 FS, 61-90 37th FS).
In the listing for June 1943 presented by Andrew Arthy,there were two P-38 lost by the 48th FS. Perhaps 2/nd Lt. Frederick Browne lost on June 15th,1943?
Also, on June 5th ,1943 P-38s attacked Capoterra A/F in Sardiania. Lt. Edward Shaw 27th FS, was POW on June 5,1943. However, the P-38 in my eye sure looks like a 48 FS,14th FG P-38.

Comments?

Re: 14th FG P-38 lost on 15 june 1943
 

Carlos,
I've examined with a lens the picture from the original negative, I've also scanned it with higher resolution but no number is visible.
In the same picture posted in the 1st FG website (it's a detail of a copy of the very same picture, copy that I've sent to Gian Piero Manca, alias "Figghiuzzo") the number disappear if you click onto it and see it enlarged.
So, I think that the number is likely the result of the way the picture has been copied and scanned.
Therefore if only a two digit number was written on the boom, why italian painters should have cancelled it in such a way like an L or U were cancelled too?
The P-38 landed at Capoterra on 12 june (according to another source, 13 june): non MACR, no losses reports in these days.
So, it's not possible that the date was 5 june. According to italian source, the two P-38 lost that day after a dive bombing of the Cagliari Monserrato airport, one of them was POW, crashed in the sea.
2nd Lt F. Browne was killed/missing on 15 june during a mission over Sicily (his name is in the Tablets of missing in the Sicily-Rome American Cemetery at Nettuno, Italy), so he can not be the pilot who landed at Capoterr.
On 15 june another P-38 pilot was taken POW according to "Adorimini" the history of 82nd FG: Lt. Richard F. Kenney. But this happened during a strafe mission in Sicily.
Or there is a mistake and he was over Sardinia?

Gianandrea

Re: 14th FG P-38 lost on 15 june 1943
 

Gianandrea,

The photos of the P-38 show only the area over the radiator on the boom as being overpainted. There is nothing on the radiator flap that shows any sign of overpainting. This is consistent with two numbers being overpainted. The ist FG used a three letter combination,eg HV-B, with the B being painted on the radiator flap. Therefore, if the airplane was a 1st FG plane there would have been an overpainted area on the radiator flap.
It is possible that it was a 82nd FG which used a two letter system at this time. It i spossible the pilot who flew the airplane was killed after being captured and thus did not become a POW.
Still a mystery...
Carlos

Re: 14th FG P-38 lost on 15 june 1943
 

Carlos,
I may be wrong but also the radiator flap -that seems to be almost completely open in the picture - had been overpainted.
By my opinion there were three letters/digits overpainted.

The pilot, according to all the documents I've found, was taken prisonner.
If he wasn't a POW, perhaps there should have been a MACR...

I've checked the POW database searching for 2/Lt Jerry Stidham, POW on 15 june, rescued on 29 july: he is not included in the database. Perhaps that's due to the fact he remained POW for a short time.

But the Capoterra P-38 pilot should have leaved Sardinia after a short time, and probably he wasn't there anymore when the island was occupied in september 1943.
In the Italian Air Force archive I've found a 14 august 1943 document containing a list of six allied airmen (all NCO) flown to the italian mainland: amongst them, a pilot shot down on 2 august 1943. So the stay in Sardinia of the captured airmen was short.
I'll go in march to the It.AF Historical Office and I'll try to find other details about this little mistery.
Regards

Gianandrea

Re: 14th FG P-38 lost on 15 june 1943
 

Gentlemen:

I don't wish to get heavily involved with your research problem, but after reading over the public postings, I do see one consideration that needs to be well understood.

It appears to me that your discussion about the USAAF P-38 loss on 15 June 1943 is based only on the Missing Aircrew Reports (MACRs). You need to remember that the MACR program was not fully implemented until ca. Sept.-Oct. 1943, and that many, many losses were not reported on MACRs before this time. . . . In fact, I would say that it is highly likely that a USAAF loss in the Mediterranean Theatre in June 1943 would NOT have received a MACR. Thus, it seems to me, you may be "playing with a short deck" of evidence. . . .

RA

Re: 14th FG P-38 lost on 15 june 1943
 

Rabe,
thank you for your advice.
Because of the fact I've found some MACR related to losses suffered in MTO
in June 1943, I thougth that that system was accurate.
I think that the only way to solve this little mistery is to found the name of that pilot in italian archive.

Best regards

Gianandrea

Re: 14th FG P-38 lost on 15 june 1943
 

Rabe/Gianandrea,

Is it possible to identify this airplane through Individual Airplane Cards?
One Website http://1stfighter.org/photos/Misc/P3...0Italians.html identifies the last four digits of the serial number as 2278.
A look at Joe Baugher's list indicates 43-2278 as a P-38G-13(Lo).

Otherwise,trawling the POW database seems the only way to identify this rare bird.

Re: 14th FG P-38 lost on 15 june 1943
 

There are accounts of a P - 38 that landed in Sardinia, 1943. it was used by Italian Pilot Guido Rossi to shoot down several U.S. Bombers until he was shot down while attacking a B - 17. Ditched in MED., survived.
Mike ?????????

Re: 14th FG P-38 lost on 15 june 1943
 

i went to the ItAF archive in Rome some weeks ago: I didn't found the name of the P-38 pilots, but from the documents I've found I can confirm that the episode happened for sure at about 19.00 of the 12 june 1943.

Gianandrea

Re: 14th FG P-38 lost on 15 june 1943
 

Hello Gianandrea,

Thanks for the update and confermation on the date .

Alex

Re: 14th FG P-38 lost on 15 june 1943
 

Possible ID?
see message dated 3/21/2007 in
http://www.armyairforces.com/forum/m.../tm.htm#117643

Interesting-43-2278 listed as "Condemmed missing non combat"
Odd about the pilot going from MAlta to Gilbalter ? RAF/US Air Transport Command/Attached from another squadron?????

Re: 14th FG P-38 lost on 15 june 1943
 

Hi,
Gianandrea, Long time since we heard from you. Have you found anything out that's new ?
The "2278" could be just a red herring or even a Lockheed A.C Serial number without the "122" or "322".
But with a now certain Date and time it should not be long. I expect that some know of its true ID already but are keeping quiet.

All the best
Alex
Alex

Re: 14th FG P-38 lost on 15 june 1943
 

Tondi -in Italian AF markings shot down 2 B-17s of301st BG, 419th BS
42-30093 -damaged
42-30307-"Bonnie Sue" shot down

related links:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...t=Italian+P-38
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...t=Italian+P-38

Re: 14th FG P-38 lost on 15 june 1943
 

Gentlemen,

Perhaps this website may give some answers: http://www.geocities.com/raf_112_sqd...roll42_43.html

Pilot of 43-2466 is identified here as Lt Donald E. Anderson.

Regards,

Leendert