Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum - Late-war Me262 Encounter over Northern Germany

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azapf1972

2nd October 2014 11:32

Late-war Me262 Encounter over Northern Germany

I did post this also on "http://www.luftwaffe-research-group.org" so please forgive me if you find the post twice:

I am currently looking into a possible encounter of Me262's of 10./NJG11 in the Reinfeld/Lübeck area based on a vague description given by Lt. Jörg Czypionka in an interview and a book.

Depending on where you read it, it is slightly different - but quoting the book, this is the story told:

"At the end of April, Czypionka and a sergeant-pilot of the unit were heading for their autobahn base, returning at dawn from a late night mission. [...] they spotted a formation of Tempests flying six abreast. [...] Czypionka took out one Tempest, which exploded in mid-air. The sergeant's guns jammed. [...]
Unfortunately, the sergeant said to go to Lübeck, and the British overheard his radio transmission. Chased by the surviving Tempests, Czypionka and his comrade arrived at Lübeck airfield to find a welcoming committee of Spitfires. [...]"

So much for the story itself - it does not give a date (other than "end of April") but given that 10./NJG11 was not in or around Lübeck prior to April 10, 1945 and (presumably) not on the highway strip near Reinfeld after May 1, 1945 (which is when the British troops reached Reinfeld and then Lübeck the day after), we are looking at a very narrow timeline of about 20 days.

I checked the Tempest losses - this is what I found:

No. 3 Sqn. lost two Tempest on April 30 but on an evening patrol "over the bridgehead".

No. 3 Sqn. lost a tempest on April 21 but again on a later-day patrol (t/o 16:55)

No. 3 Sqn. was not flying missions prior to April 19, 1945 as they had been sent to RAF Warmwell for training.

No. 33 Sqn. lost two Tempest on April 12 but no dawn patrols (t/o 11:45)

No. 33 Sqn. lost one Tempest April 23 (t/o 08:15) which is late for a "dawn patrol" but at least a morning loss plus it was an "Armed recce to Husum and Kiel"

No. 33 Sqn. lost three Tempest on April 24 but again late morning (t/o 11:15).

No. 33 Sqn. lost one Tempest on April 25 but later afternoon.

No. 274 Sqn. lost one Tempest April 23 but late morning and it was a "single flight"

No. 486 Sqn. lost one Tempest April 14 but on an evening patrol.

No. 486 Sqn. lost one Tempest April 20 but on a later patrol.

No. 486 Sqn. lost one Tempest April 26 but again on a later morning patrol

No. 486 Sqn. lost one Tempest April 27 in the morning but due to flak.

Questions:

Does anyone know of any more Tempest losses or damaged a/c that might fit the described event?

Does anyone have records on the Spitfire Squadrons and a recorded event of an attack on Lübeck-Blankensee airfield?

There are reports on a fighter-bomber attack on the airfield of Lübeck-Blankensee on or around April 13, 1945. Does anyone have evidence of this incident and can point me to the involved (RAF assumed) Squadrons?

Any help would be appreciated.

Andreas

Nick Beale

2nd October 2014 13:03

Re: Late-war Me262 Encounter over Northern Germany

if it helps, "over the bridgehead" on 30 April probably refers to Lauenburg on the Elbe, quite a long way south of Lübeck.

azapf1972

2nd October 2014 13:19

Re: Late-war Me262 Encounter over Northern Germany

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Beale (Post 189893)

if it helps, "over the bridgehead" on 30 April probably refers to Lauenburg on the Elbe, quite a long way south of Lübeck.

Nick,

I think so - the 11. Armoured reached Lübeck May 2nd - and they did come across the intermediate base of the 10./NJG 11 on the Highway to Lübeck. Flying time is rather short - I have just been up there in a Cessna, it only is about 50 Kilometers from the outskirts of Hamburg to Lübeck... nothing not to handle... I just cannot find and matching loss in the Records of Events for the Tempest Sqns... :( - maybe I'll check the Typhoons to make sure they did not mix up the types...

Andreas

Erich

2nd October 2014 18:46

Re: Late-war Me262 Encounter over Northern Germany

Georg did not engage Tempests wait for the book on K. Welter and his merry band....

E ~

Larry deZeng

2nd October 2014 20:04

Re: Late-war Me262 Encounter over Northern Germany

Andreas Z.,

I have never heard of the website you cited above. I went to it and found that there is no way to sample the contents without joining. In other words, I should buy the car without test driving it. So, what is this site all about? In what ways is it different from this website? If they do not want people to preview its contents, then it sounds like a good site to avoid. Can you let us know something about it?

Thanks,

L.

azapf1972

2nd October 2014 22:31

Re: Late-war Me262 Encounter over Northern Germany

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry deZeng (Post 189907)

Larry,

my understanding of the site "mentioned above" is that it tries to step in where the old LEMB forum finished when it was closed down earlier this year. Not sure why the forum is not "open" to non-registered readers but as I am not running it, I cannot comment on it.

Andreas

azapf1972

2nd October 2014 22:39

Re: Late-war Me262 Encounter over Northern Germany

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erich (Post 189904)

Georg did not engage Tempests wait for the book on K. Welter and his merry band....

E ~

Erich,

many thanks for the feedback here and elsewhere - much appreciated. As with many things on Welter's group, it is hard to separate fact from fiction (and given that I have not found supporting evidence in the records, I had already put this one down on the "most likely fiction" side of things).

The next problem, of course, is then navigating in "misplaced events in time" and "former publisher beefed up things a bit" judgments... especially since most publishers have decided to work without revealing their sources....

What's your target date on your work about Welter? Any ideas yet?

Andreas

Larry deZeng

3rd October 2014 00:51

Re: Late-war Me262 Encounter over Northern Germany

Quote:

Originally Posted by azapf1972 (Post 189913)

Thanks, Andreas. That's very helpful and just the comparison I was looking for.

L.

RodM	3rd October 2014 21:59

Re: Late-war Me262 Encounter over Northern Germany

Hi Andreas,

provided that the base facts of the story are correct, especially with regards to Czypionka abandoning his Me262 part way down the runway/landing ground after touch down due to strafing attacks, from memory (because I don't have the source material at hand) there are combat reports from the RAF units involved in a strafing attack on Lübeck that describe the Me262 pilot abandoning his Me262 part way down the runway...

I don't, off-hand. recall the date of the encounter, but the book '2nd Tactical Air Force Volume 3', by Chris Shores and Chris Thomas should have amplifying details.

Here is a published account about Czypionka abandoning his Me262:

Every flak gun on the airfield was already firing at the British fighters as the two jets came in at low altitude. "They were shooting at everyone; it didn't matter. The sergeant's plane was hit in one wheel by our own flak, so when he landed, it was flat and pulled him off to the right. He was lucky because that threw 'off the aim of the ones behind him who were trying to shoot him down." Czypionka was hit in the rudder and in his empty rear-fuselage fuel tank by cannon fire from a Spitfire that overshot him as he started to lower his gear and flaps. "He zoomed past me, and I decided I wasn't going to make it that way, so I pulled everything up and landed on the turbines." The airplane slid to a stop in the middle of the field. Czypionka leapt out and started to run as several Spitfires came in on a strafing run. "The flak got the one, but they strafed the airplane."

"Wilde Sau" mosquito fighters, Flight Journal, Apr 2002 by Cleaver, Thomas McKelvey

regards

Rod

azapf1972

3rd October 2014 22:28

Re: Late-war Me262 Encounter over Northern Germany

Quote:

Originally Posted by RodM (Post 189955)

Hi Andreas,

I don't, off-hand. recall the date of the encounter, but the book '2nd Tactical Air Force Volume 3', by Chris Shores and Chris Thomas should have amplifying details.

Rod

Rod, once more I am in your debt... the book is out of print and not available on eBay or amazon for the moment but I will keep an eye open... libraries sometimes help...

Andreas

Clint Mitchell

4th October 2014 03:47

Re: Late-war Me262 Encounter over Northern Germany

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry deZeng (Post 189922)

Thanks, Andreas. That's very helpful and just the comparison I was looking for.

L.

Dear Larry,

I am currently part of the team who has launched the new LRG (Luftwaffe Research Group) 'forum' in question. Due to the LEMB forum closing, several like minded individuals decided to start a new fresh forum dedicated to research into the history of the Luftwaffe. I hope that you will consider signing up to have a look around prior to passing judgement on our new venture. The reason for a members only viewing and posting system is so that we can ensure that the forum is not compromised by spammers. You are very much welcome to sign up to the our LRG forum, it is free of course. Given your experience and due to your exemplary published works on Luftwaffe history, I would be glad if you would consider contacting me via pm on the personal messaging system via this forum (TOCH), where I would be more than happy to manually register you onto our system.

Kind regards

Clint Mitchell

Larry deZeng

4th October 2014 13:49

Re: Late-war Me262 Encounter over Northern Germany

Hi Clint,

Thank you for your most gracious invitation and I will contact you by PM.

L.

azapf1972

4th October 2014 14:03

Re: Late-war Me262 Encounter over Northern Germany

To give the discussion a final touch, I have worked the sources during the night and this morning, happily putting "the case" in front of you.

www.chronicles-of-the-luftwaffe.de/?p=639

Andreas

Larry Hickey

5th October 2014 00:36

Re: Late-war Me262 Encounter over Northern Germany

Larry,

The Luftwaffe Research Group Is the successor to the LEMB, and is being created and moderated by most of the same people who helped Peter D. Evans moderate the LEMB Board. I know most of these people well and can attest to the high quality of the site and their research. It is based upon more recently developed software and I think it will make an outstanding contribution to our research field. I strongly encourage you to join.

Larry deZeng

5th October 2014 15:14

Re: Late-war Me262 Encounter over Northern Germany

Thank you for the recommendation, Larry. I have corresponded by PM with Clint M. concerning the new site and told him I would give registering priority consideration if time becomes available to join and contribute. Right now, finishing up my airfields project is my main concern. Thanks again.

Larry D.

Erich

5th October 2014 17:20

Re: Late-war Me262 Encounter over Northern Germany

aza Cleavers account from Georg is only partially correct, like I told you privately wait for the book ..............

greetings.

E ~

Stig Jarlevik

6th October 2014 00:19

Re: Late-war Me262 Encounter over Northern Germany

Erich

We have been waiting for quite some years now for your book to appear.
Is it possible to get a more precise date when it is going to be published?

Cheers
Stig

Erich

6th October 2014 01:29

Re: Late-war Me262 Encounter over Northern Germany

Greetings Stig, well things are moving slowly both G. and myself have gone and still going through cancer in our bodies so this has slowed things down to a stop more than normal but we are determined.....

thank you for asking

E ~

azapf1972

6th October 2014 07:49

Re: Late-war Me262 Encounter over Northern Germany

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erich (Post 190034)

aza Cleavers account from Georg is only partially correct, like I told you privately wait for the book ..............

greetings.

E ~

Erich,

with all due respect: my intention was not to wait for your book, it was to continue my own work which is why I initially asked (and got a satisfying answer).

When your work becomes available, I will eagerly take a look to see where your material differs from mine - and stand corrected wherever your data proofs me wrong (which certainly can happen in many cases, given the thin documentation on the unit).

As shown above: from my perspective, the available data suggests that account may be correct (except maybe for the claim, if Jörg ever made it) and from my perspective, it is possible that is has happened just like Jörg described it (with some nuances).

Yes, the mentioned jets may have come from a different unit. Yes, the similarities might be coincidence. That is why I put my data out, available to be assessed by everyone to draw their own conclusions. People do not have to follow my thinking, or they may come up with additional/different data that contradicts my thinking.

History is not served well if information is hidden away in drawers and hard disks - it only comes to life when it is presented, discussed and assessed.

Andreas

Stig Jarlevik

6th October 2014 11:42

Re: Late-war Me262 Encounter over Northern Germany

Erich

Sorry to hear that. Hope things are going in the right direction for the two of you!

Best wishes
Stig

Richard T. Eger

6th October 2014 13:43

Re: Late-war Me262 Encounter over Northern Germany

Dear Erich,

My sympathies to both you and G. for your travails. I wish you both speedy recoveries.

Regards,
Richard

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