269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

Over the North Sea on 19 Sept. 1939, a 269 Sqdn Anson (V/269; K.6317) was in combat with an unknown Do. 18 in position QSSV 2737. During the course of the engagement the pilot of the Anson was killed. Does anyone know the Do.18 involved? Does anyone know the grid co-ordinates for QSSV 2737? Bill Norman (website: www.billnorman.co.uk)

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

This is odd Bill

In Fledgling Eagles, Shores only states a combat between a 612 Sq Anson and a Do 18. Nothing about any from 269 Sq.

In Coastal Command Losses by Ross McNeill he lists no pilot killed on the 19th.

Obviously you know something they don't.

Do you have the name of the pilot killed?

B Rgds
Stig

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

Pilot Officer D S M Burrell: report of death; Anson K6317 in an attack on an enemy flying boat, 19 September 1939
http://discovery.nationalarchives.go...ls/r/C14141990

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

Hello Stig,
The pilot's name was P/O Dennis Samuel Martin BURRELL, There is no doubt about the incident. Perhaps the sources you quote are referring to another incident on the same day? Does either/both give a position for their particular incident? Do you have the co-ordinates for QSSV 2737?

Bill
(website: www.billnorman.co.uk)

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

Udf 00,
I did know the pilot's name - but thanks for the NA reference, which I did not have. Much appreciated.

Bill Norman
(website: www.billnorman.co.uk)

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

THE LONDON GAZETTE, 3 NOVEMBER, 1939 7413
Awarded the Distinguished Flying Medal
527769 Sergeant William Edward WILLITS. Sergeant WILLITS was the second pilot and navigator of an aircraft engaged in combat with an enemy flying boat in September, 1939. When, during an attack, the pilot had been shot through the head and had collapsed over the control column, this airman, in spite of the pilot's inertness and the extremely low altitude, succeeded in obtaining control of the aircraft. After the dead pilot had been moved entirely clear of the controls Sergeant WILLITS piloted and navigated the aircraft back to the base, a distance of about 140 miles. The airman's skill and presence of mind undoubtedly saved the aircraft and the Jives of the other members of the crew.

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

Udf 00
Thank you for your latest post - I was aware of Willits' award.

Bill

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

Not that it is really needed but to support all that has been written, Coastal Command reported a combat between a 269 Sqn ac and a Do 17. No location or time given but the RAF pilot was killed. There were no other recorded combats on this date

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

Chris,
Thanks for that - puts Shores' and McNeill's claims into a new light. Any idea of the co-ordinates for QSSV 2737?
Bill

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

Bill: There are others on this site who can translate the coordinates for you-SES is one I believe
Chris

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

There were 2 engagements with British aircraft that were reported by German maritime fliers on this day but only 1 Do 18 was involved (second aircraft was He 115).

Regards

Robert

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

Thank you, Robert. The Do.18 is the one I am after. Do you have any information about it - unit, code, crew?

Regards,
Bill

Calling SES
 

SES,
Any idea of the co-ordinates for the RAF Coastal Command position QSSV 2737?

Bill N.

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

Bill
Suggest you PM him. I have checked again-no other CC combat logged that day apart from the 269 Sqn one

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

Thanks, Chris. Will do.

Bill

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

In the KTB for General der Luftwaffe beim Oberkommando der Marine for
19. September 1939 the following entry is made:
"Feindliche Luftaufklärungstätigkeit zwischen 57 und 59 Grad nördliche Breite.- Je ein kurzer Luftkampf He 115 Südspitze Norwegen und Do 18 Qu. 4277 gegen feindliche Landflugzeuge (vermutlich Lockheed 14). Vom
Gegner durch Wegziehen in die Volken abgebrochen. Keine Beschädigungen."
Unfortunately no indication of units involved.

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

Seaplanes,
Vielen Dank für Ihre Antwort - nützlich. Ich glaube, dass ein weiteres Stück passt!

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

All

Thanks for the update with regard to the pilot killed

Not sure if I am the only one who have Shores' book or not, but unless he sat and fantasized in front of his computer, it would be interesting to know why he wrote ' The following day saw two encounters over the North Atlantic between opposing patrol aircraft, but both proved indecisive. At 1005 and Anson of 612 Squadron encountered Do 18 8L+EK of 2./KüFlGr 606 some 122 miles east of Wick. In the short combat which followed the Anson made four firing passes, but the Dornier disappeared undamaged in the clouds.'
Since Shores' book, at least to me, is the standard work for the period in question I am interested to know
a) Why does he state 612 Sq and not 269 Sq?
b) Why does he list both unit and code of the Do 18 when it still is unknown?
Is he mixing this combat with something else which in fact happened another day?

Bill
Not sure what you mean with 'McNeill's claim'. The point I am trying to make is that he makes no claim at all in his book. The incident with the killed 269 Sq pilot this date is not listed at all.

B Rgds
Stig

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

Not sure that 8L was 606 either?

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

Stig,
Thanks for your input.
I suspect that we're talking about different incidents here - one relating to 612 Sqdn; the other relating to 269 Sqdn. What date was 'the following day' in your quotation from Shores' book?

The 269 Sqdn Anson did not make 'four firing passes' on the Dornier. Two shells from the Do.18's first (and only) burst hit the Anson, one of them killing the pilot instantly. After that, the Anson crew was too pre-occupied with trying to regain control of their aircraft (before it hit the sea) to engage in combat. After the lucky burst, the Do. disappeared into cloud and was not seen again.

According to Shores, 612's Do. was encountered c. 122 miles E of Wick at 1005hrs; 269's Do. was spotted at 1010hrs and after a brief chase the Anson was hit when about 140 miles from base (Montrose), though compass direction is not given. The locations of Wick and Montrose again suggest different incidents - unless the 269 Anson met the '612' Do. when the latter was on its way home. Assuming that Shores' date is correct, I am more inclined to think that there were two Do's involved - which makes me wonder whether both Do.18's were from the same unit (2/606).

Re. McNeill's 'claim', you are correct: I was simply (and imprecisely!) treating the omission of the 269 incident as a 'claim by omission'. Clearly, not a good idea. However, the incident did take place: I have copies of most of the official accounts relating to the incident; Burrell's grave is at Montrose; and I have spoken with Ted Willits, Burrell's navigator, who averted an almost certain disaster by exceedingly prompt action. I have also seen the citation for his DFM - and held the medal.

Bill

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

Contributions to this topic are pointing towards the Do.18 having belonged to 2/606. However,other possible candidates include: 2./106; 2./306; 2./406; and 2./506. If any subscriber to this forum holds documents from any of these units relating to operations on 19 September 1939, I would be grateful if they would check them to see if there is any reference to the Anson/Do.18 combat.
Thanks in advance.

Bill Norman

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

We are getting confused. 606 (code 7T) flew Do 17s. 906 (code 8L) was flying Do 18s. Do 18 combats logged by CC were 5 Sep (224 Sqn), 12 Sep (224 Sqn), 19 Sep (269 Sqn), 26 Sep (224 Sqn ), 29 Sep (224 Sqn). I can see no mention of 612 Sqn so would suggest Sep 39 is pulled at the NA?

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

Chris,
According to website www.ww2.dk, 2./606 had Do.18 at Hörnum during the date in question; 2./906 didn't acquire Do.18 until October 1939. Seems to be at odds with your view? Rather like Stig and Shores, I thought that www.ww2.dk was a highly dependable site. All I want is the truth and am willing to be persuaded...

I don't understand your last sentence. Do you mean that the 612 Sqdn file for Sept. '39 should be examined at the NA?

Bill

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

True but 8L=906 not 606. Yes-I suggest you look at the Sep 39 F540

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

To clear any confusion the following units were equipped with Do 18's on 19.09.1939
2./106 in Norderney code M2+ - K and remained the same after 25.10.39 with the same unit code and Staffel letter.
2./506 in Hörnum code M7+ - K on 25.10.39 redesignated 1./406 with unit code K6 and Staffel letter H.
2./306 in Hörnum code K6+ - K on 25.10.39 redesignated 3./406 with unit code K6 and Staffel letter L.
2./606 in Hörnum code 8L+ - K on 25.10.39 redesignated 2./906 with unit code 8L and Staffel letter K.
2./406 in List code S4+ -K remained with the same designation after 25.10.39 but given the new unit code for Gruppe 406 K6 and Staffel letter K.

Still confused ??

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

Ah that explains it-month gap. Now to answer the 612 Sqn confusion!

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

Seaplanes,
Thanks for your more recent input.

Going back to your earlier contribution (28 Oct), in which the location of the Do.18 engagement is given as Qu.4277. Assuming that the grid ref. is Kriegsmarine, the location of the engagement would have been c. equidistant between Wick and Norway. Is it reasonable to believe that the Montrose-based 269 Sqdn would be patrolling so far northeast of its base- given that 612 Sqdn had detachments at Stornaway and Wick?

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

Thanks Guys

I bet the Germans did all this just to confuse historians 70 years later....:D
(thanks Seaplanes)
Admittedly I don't have these things under control (I am the amateur, remember) but I still don't understand from where Shores got his information.

But at face value, it seems Shores got things all wrong here. I just can't understand it.:confused:

Cheers
Stig

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

Later when the seaplanes were transferred between the units the confusion (aircraft codes) was even bigger.
I have somewhere info, which squadrons were engaged on this day - I will check it and tell you.

Regards

Robert

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

Thank you, Robert. That would be a great help

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

2./106, 1./106, 2./306, 2./606 and 1./406 were engaged on this day.
I have all KTBs but 2./606 so it must be Do 18 from this unit.

Regards

Robert

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

Thanks, Robert - that should tidy things up nicely!

Regards
Bill

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

Bill

It looks after all like half of what Shores says in Fledgling Eagles is correct.
The German details must have been researched by co-author Heinrich Weiss and the 2./606 code 8L+EK must be what he had listed at the time.

I have no way of evaluating the individual code 'E', but 8L+xK fits....

Cheers
Stig

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

Stig,
It would be a pity if we 'fell at the last fence'. If someone out there has a copy of the KTB for 2./606 for September 1939, I would be very pleased if they would look at the entry for 19 September 1939 and let us know what it says.

Bill
(website: www.billnorman.co.uk)

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

'Seaplanes', my apologies if the following question is naïve.
I refer to your posting on 29 October(9.23) in which you state: "2./606 in Hörnum code 8L+ -K. On 25.10.39 redesignated 2./906 with unit code 8L and Staffel letter K".

And now (just tho get things straight in my own mind)the question: On the strength of what you wrote, am I right in thinking that KüFlGr. 906 came into existence on 25.10. 39; that the code for KüFlGr. 606 (8L+ ,up to that date) was re-allocated to KüFlGr.906; and that KüFlGr.606 was allocated a new code (namely, 7T+) on 25.10 39?

If that is correct, it would explain why a ./606 Do.18 with the coding 8L+EK could be involved with the Anson on 19 Sept.1939 and why the same Do.18 coded 8L+EK (and with same crew but now part of ./906) could be shot down off Kinnaird Head on 11 April 1940.

Bill Norman

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

Yes you are quite right. 2./606 was just re-numbered 2./906 on 25.10.39.

Re: 269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939
 

Thank you, Seaplanes.

Bill N