Questions about three Luftwaffe losses on 30 October 1944
 

Hello, I have questions about the thre following German losses on 30 October 1944:

1) Uffz Walter Köpp of 1./JG 54 baled out from his Fw 190 A-9 WNr 205237 "white 16" due to engine damage in Auce area, Courland (written Autz in German sources) but did not survive, according to the Rosipal's JG 54 loss list. The Volksung had an Uffz Walter Köpp with the same date of birth who died the next day, 31 October, at "Feldlaz. 3/572 Grobin, Kurland" (field hospital 3/572, Grobin). Grobin being a base used by JG 54, it seems to me failry possible that Köpp was not killed after bailing out but heavily wounded, and died the next day after being brought back to base. Can someone confirm ?

See: http://www.volksbund.de/index.php?id...rlustsuche_pi2[gid]=acb077ba129085a561ea98385ec159b0

2) Gefr Hans-Herbert Schwarz of 9./JG 54 is listed by Rosipal JG 54 loss list as being wounded in a crash-landing at Gutenfeld, East Prussia (now Lugovojė, Russia) after engine troubles. His Fw 190 A-8 (unknown serial) is listed at a 100% loss. The location is strange for a III./JG 54 loss, as this Gruppe was then in western Germany. And the Luftwaffe losses summary database has no loss (or damage) for III./JG 54 this day, but one aircraft "destroyed without enemy action on non-operational flight" for II./JG 54. This Gruppe will be more logic for this location. Can someone confirm to which unit Schwarz belonged ? The serial number of his Fw 190 A-8 would be an appreciated bonus.

3) According to the Luftwaffe in the North loss list (no more online), on this day a Ju 88 A-4 of 5./KG 6 was at 100% destroyed in an accident (landing or take-off) on Fühlsbüttel airfield. The pilot, Gfr. Rulemann Grisson, and the three other crew were killed. I would like the names of the other crew, and any other available data on this loss.

Thanks in advance

Re: Questions about three Luftwaffe losses on 30 October 1944
 

1) Walter Köpp was wounded in the crash and died next day at Feld-Lazarett. However, there is in the NVM no note on the use of parachute. Also, I have for him Fw 190 A-8, Werk.-Nr. 680814.

2)
1944-08-07, 9./JG 54, Fw 190 A-8, 173025, 4 gelbe (8 gelbe?), 1 km von La-Ferrière-aux-Etangs, 10 km südsüdöstlich Flers, Luftkampf mit Spitfire. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Gefr Schwarz, Hans-Herbert, vermißt

3)
1944-10-30, 5./KG 6, Ju 88 A-4, Fl.Pl. Hamburg-Fuhlsbüttel, Unbekannt. Bruch ? %.
Flugzeugführer Gefr Grisson, Rulemann, +
Beobachter Ogfr Kast, Wolfgang, +
Bordfunker Gefr Koch, Gerhard, +
Bordschütze Uffz Vötter, Hans, +

Matti

Re: Questions about three Luftwaffe losses on 30 October 1944
 

Thanks Matti,

Regarding 1, the Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen for I./JG 54 shows only two losses for Fw 190 A-9 in October 1944, both due to enemy action (and none in November), while Rosipal lists four A-9 100% losses on 28 (Wnr 750081, Oblt Ritzel MIA), 29 (205233, Fw Welsh MIA) and 30 (205237, Fw Köpp KIFA and 205235, Uffz Meinecke KIA). So the NVM is probably right.

Regarding 2, Rosipal has this loss but says the pilot was unhurt. I will have to check what Frappé is saying about this day when he will be home again.

Re: Questions about three Luftwaffe losses on 30 October 1944
 

I have slightly different info:
750081 is A-8,
Welsch is 205211,
205233 was Günther Dallinger and date is 1944-09-25 (100 % loss),

Matti

Re: Questions about three Luftwaffe losses on 30 October 1944
 

Hello Matti,

Because you are such a consistent fount of information, I stick my toe into the water with trepidation.

Unless all of the data in my files are incorrect, Fw190A’s from the 750XXX series (750070 to 750198 in my files) are Mimetall-Erfurt-built Fw190A-9’s.

I often see Fw190A loss lists that record Fw190A-9 Werknummern as A-8’s and Fw190F-9’s as F-8’s. Perhaps the reporting parties had other more important things on their minds at the time.

With highest regards,

Steve Sheflin

Re: Questions about three Luftwaffe losses on 30 October 1944
 

Steve,

I have from the NVMs 41 losses, where the Werk.-Nr. is 750XXX starting with 750078 and ending with 750158. They contain 22 A-8 and 19 A-9 versions scattered quite evenly both inside this block and also inside the operators. Hard to say, why more than half were reported as A-8, if all in this block should be A-9. From my mind it is highly unlikely, that this would be simply disregard of the instructions or similar.

One example. According to the Bestandliste I/JG 2 had in December 1944 only Fw 190 A-8/R6 and Fw 190 D-9. Quite correctly they reported in that month 4 A-8 losses, but with the following WNr.: 750141, 750143, 750146 and 750154. If these were A-9, the Gruppe has given erronous information both in the Bestandliste and in four separate NVMs. This seems to show, that they really were sure of the version A-8.

Hope, that we'll find a good, logical explanation.

Regards,

Matti

Re: Questions about three Luftwaffe losses on 30 October 1944
 

Matti, can you provide me the details you have for the four losses of I./JG 54 between 28 and 30 October, and the one of Dallinger on 25 September ?

So far, Rosipal's list has not been error proof, but was mainly right, compared to other sources (Prien, TOCH, etc..) but it seems to me that there are many discrepencies for these few cases in fall 1944.

That is very surprising to me, because I thought that for that period the NVMs are the main source for such details, so data should have come from the same source as yours.

Re: Questions about three Luftwaffe losses on 30 October 1944
 

This is what I have written into my database:
1944-10-28, 1./JG 54, Fw 190 A-8, 750081, 1 weiße, 6 km südöstlich Vainode (Pl.Qu. 1763), Luftkampf mit Il-2. Bruch 100 %. Start 11.55.
Flugzeugführer Olt Ritzel, Georg, +
1944-10-29, 2./JG 54, Fw 190 A-9, 205211, 13 schw, 12 km nordwestlich Vainode, Luftkampf mit Il-2. Bruch 100 %. Start 09.55.
Flugzeugführer Fw Welsch, Hugo, +
1944-10-30, 1./JG 54, Fw 190 A-8, 680814, 16 weiße, Raum Autz, Absturz infolge Motorschaden. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Uffz Köpp, Walter, verletzt
Uffz Köpp am 1944-10-31 im Feld.-Laz.3/572 Grobin seinen Verletzungen erlegen.
1944-10-30, 1./JG 54, Fw 190 A-9, 205235, 5 weiße, Hart südwestlich Fl.Pl. Skrunda (Pl.Qu. 17435), Luftkampf mit 6 Jak-9. Bruch ? %. Start 13.45.
Flugzeugführer Uffz Meinecke, Gerhard, +
1944-09-25, 2./Fl.ÜG 1 Mitte, Fw 190 A-9, 205233, Bronkow, 18 km östlich Finsterwalde, Absturz infolge Motorstörung. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Fw Dallinger, Günther, +

Let's see, if we can find "the final truth".

Matti

Re: Questions about three Luftwaffe losses on 30 October 1944
 

Was shot down in combat with Il-2's of 807 ShAP/206ShAD, by gunfire of pilot Ml.L-t Rudenko (Rudenko would be killed in flight accident in bad weather on 15.01.45).

Thanks for "Start 11.55", that is extremly important note.

Re: Questions about three Luftwaffe losses on 30 October 1944
 

BTW, were there any II./JG54 losses on 28 10 44?

Re: Questions about three Luftwaffe losses on 30 October 1944
 

I have one:
1944-10-28, 7./JG 54, Fw 190 A-8, 690155, 10 weiße, Fl.Pl. Libau-Grobin
Flugzeugführer Uffz Männlin, Hans, verletzt
Überschlag bei Landung um 11.35 Uhr. Bruch ? %. Start 10.55.

Matti

Re: Questions about three Luftwaffe losses on 30 October 1944
 

Thx a lot, Matti.
"Überschlag bei Landung" is a very tricky reason - is it possible, that aircraft, damaged by enemy, and crashed on landing, have just "Crashed on landing" reason of loss?

Re: Questions about three Luftwaffe losses on 30 October 1944
 

Also, gentlemen, is it possible to find a photo of Olt Georg Ritzel? Extremly needed for an article.

Re: Questions about three Luftwaffe losses on 30 October 1944
 

And also a question, regarding a VbKz of Oblt. Ritzel's aircraft: "White 1".

Who was a StaffelKapitan of 1./JG54 in that time?


I have:
Oblt. Helmut WETTSTEIN from december 1943 to october 1944, when he was assigned to a new formed 6./JG54.

Lt. Heinz (“Piepl”) WERNICKE from "Late 1944".

Is it known, those two direct dates? When Wettstein went out from 1./JG54 and when Wernicke became StaKa? Only a speculation at the moment, but could Oblt. Ritzel (10 victories to 27.10.44) be StaFu after Wettstein and before Wernicke?

Re: Questions about three Luftwaffe losses on 30 October 1944
 

Hello Evgenyi,

The Luftwaffe summary losses database for this day has the following:
1 aircraft of I./J.G.54 missing due to enemy action (reported on 05/11/1944)
1 aircraft of II./J.G.54 destroyed without enemy action on operational flight (reported on 05/11/1944)

No damaged aircraft reported for JG 54 this day. If Männlin was wounded in a landing crash, his aircraft was probably damaged more than 10% and so "should" be in the above report. You can never be sure, but the aircraft of II./JG 54 above was probably his, and so was not involved.

The first loss was the aircraft of Oblt Ritzel that you are asking about.

Best regards

Re: Questions about three Luftwaffe losses on 30 October 1944
 

Gentlemen: are there any losses recorded by III./SG3 on 28 october 1944?

Re: Questions about three Luftwaffe losses on 30 October 1944
 

Also from the Luftwaffe summary losses database: III./SG 3 had one aircraft damaged without enemy action on operational flight on this day (reported on 1st November).

For such queries, you can check directly the online database here:
http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_summ_los...iew.asp?PAGE=1

You will need the meaning of the loss categories. I don't remember where I found them years ago but here they are (a quick search on the above site brings no result):
Category Meaning
1 Missing Due to enemy action
2 Destroyed by anti-aircraft artillery during operational flight
3 Damaged by anti-aircraft artillery during operational flight
4 Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy
5 Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy
6 Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy
7 Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy
8 Destroyed by gunfire from enemy infantry during operational flight
9 Damaged by gunfire from enemy infantry during operational flight
10 Destroyed on the ground by enemy bombs
11 Damaged on the ground by enemy bombs
12 Destroyed on the ground by gunfire from enemy aircraft
13 Damaged on the ground by gunfire from enemy aircraft
14 Destroyed on the ground by enemy gunfire from ground forces
15 Damaged on the ground by enemy gunfire from ground forces
16 Destroyed by other enemy action
17 Damaged by other enemy action
18
19
20 Destroyed without enemy action on operational flight
21 Damaged without enemy action on operational flight
22 Destroyed without enemy action on non-operational flight
23 Damaged without enemy action on non-operational flight

Re: Questions about three Luftwaffe losses on 30 October 1944
 

Matti thx for info!

Start 09:55 is local time or Berlin time?

Also, I found 3 entries:

Loss date: Unit: No of Aircraft: Category: Report date:
29.10.1944 I./J.G.54 1 1 05.11.1944
29.10.1944 I./J.G.54 1 16 05.11.1944
29.10.1944 III./S.G.3 1 7 09.11.1944

1 - missing due to enemy action
16 - Destroyed by other enemy action
7 - Damaged by enemy gunfire on operational flight

Any further details?

Re: Questions about three Luftwaffe losses on 30 October 1944
 

I cannot say for sure, but I think that normally Luftwaffe used Central European (German) time everywhere in the Reich. At least the times reported to the Finnish air surveillance units (German flights in Finland) are not local, but German times.

Matti