Anyone ever found Luftwaffe Kill Reports?
 

Has anyone ever requested and received “Luftwaffe Kill Reports”? How did you get them?
Step 1: (Have) For my research on my Lost Uncles B-17, I have found 6 Luftwaffe Kill claims (1 line listings: Pilot, location, time, aircraft, etc) for Oct 4, 1943 that attacked his formation.
Step 2: (Don’t have) How do I get copies of each complete “kill reports” or “½ Kill Reports” that the Luftwaffe pilots filled out (includes details of the battle & what happened to the plane& crew being attacked). Sometimes each report was a page long.
Many thanks in advance.

Re: Anyone ever found Luftwaffe Kill Reports?
 

Combat Reports are rare; what seems to be the norm are the summaries which you have already

Re: Anyone ever found Luftwaffe Kill Reports?
 

Thanks Chris.

I'm aware they can be hard to get.
I had one sent to me out of the totally unexpected & out of the blue several months ago. It was of a LW Commander Pilot that had attacked another B-17 in the formation that day. That single report put me on to the quest of finding the other Kill Reports for that formation that day.

I figure if that report survived... the others in that group should have survived also.

Re: Anyone ever found Luftwaffe Kill Reports?
 

I'm afraid that survival of Luftwaffe paperwork is fragmentary at best. One respected archivist has estimated that perhaps 95% of it is "gone" -- but bits and pieces still occasionally surface.

When searching through Record Group 242 in the National archives, I ran across a (very) few, with witness reports, from the III/JG 3 in the home defense in 1943, but the microfilm rolls' contents are a hodge-podge in themselves. Technical analysis of a Soviet bomber, a speech from Goering to industrialists, bombing-raid damage assessment, a part of a unit war diary - you get the idea.

There's a scene that may serve to illustrate the dilemma, early in Oliver Hirschbiegel's Der Untergang (Downfall, in English), where clouds of paperwork are being tossed, and settle into a building's courtyard. Doesn't seem likely any of this was picked-up, sorted, preserved...

Good luck in your hunt, you may get lucky, GRM

Re: Anyone ever found Luftwaffe Kill Reports?
 

GR,

By any chance did the fragment of the war diary that you ran across have anything to do with the 1939-40 period?

Re: Anyone ever found Luftwaffe Kill Reports?
 

Sorry, Larry, no gems:

"a (very) few, with witness reports, from the III/JG 3 in the home defense in 1943"

The reason they were noteworthy TO ME was that they mentioned a particular pilot (Surau) and his machine ("gelbe 6" of 9./JG 3).

GRM

Re: Anyone ever found Luftwaffe Kill Reports?
 

Also of Note:
I understand that the Germans microfilmed the Luftwaffe claims & sent them west (?) where they were intercepted by the US and copies sent to England & are supposed to be archived at the imperial War Museum in London. 1943 Claims should be in it... but Kill-reports? Perhaps someone can shed some light on this.

Re: Anyone ever found Luftwaffe Kill Reports?
 

Marv -

Here ya' go:

http://lesliesawyer.com/claims/tonywood.htm

Scroll down about halfway to "OKL Fighter Claims".

L.

Re: Anyone ever found Luftwaffe Kill Reports?
 

...but these are not combat reports but the listings of kills. I refer to my & GRM's earlier postings

Re: Anyone ever found Luftwaffe Kill Reports?
 

Larry, Chris is right... those are the Listings of Kills... I'm looking for the the "Combat Reports" filled out in detail by the pilots.

Re: Anyone ever found Luftwaffe Kill Reports?
 

Marv -

It sounded in Post #7 like you were unaware that a good scout by the name of Tony Wood had tirelessly reworked the 12 rolls of 35mm IWM claims microfilms into a digital data resource and installed it on the internet. I realize that your principal objective is to find the underlying reports that justified and supported the claims, but I thought my little contribution about the website might be helpful, too.

Over the past 40 years, I have trawled my way through nearly all of the surviving Luftwaffe records on microfilm and those in paper form at BA-MA Freiburg and I recall seeing only 3 or 4 of the combat reports you seek. For decades it was rumored that many thousands of these reports did survive the war and were in private hands. The name of the individual most often mentioned to be in possession of this collection was Hans Ring who, at the time, lived in the Munich area. I have never seen proof of any of this conjecture and the last time I even heard mention of it was a good 10 years ago.

L.

Re: Anyone ever found Luftwaffe Kill Reports?
 

Larry,

You are correct... I was unaware. Many thanks for that explanation.

The reason I posted on this form was to hopefully find researchers like yourself that knew the system and had tried really hard to get to the bottom of things. It sounds like you have.

I do appreciate your Claims Link as you never know what I have... in this case I had that and another 2nd source Claims list that was sent to me (that I would have to look up to get again... but some of the information from that 2nd source listed different kill locations (possibily from the different Grid maps that I heard were used at the time)).

Bottom Line:
1. How hard has anyone tried to find Hans Ring and get access to those reports?
2. You say you only found 3-4 Kill reports that I seek. I assume that you mean in general & not from Oct 4, 1943... Right?
3. You say that you have "trawled your way through nearly all of the surviving Luftwaffe records on microfilm and those in paper form at BA-MA Freiburg". In a way this is great news to me because I was hoping to find a researcher that was at that level, knew the system, and had been there. I was even thinking of hiring one of the ones they offer... but if you have already done that, then I would gain nothing. Is that Correct?
4. I'm in USA, I do not know the German system. As I understand it the Germans have several War Museums each housing specific areas of operations/records... i.e. the "BA-MA Freiburg" houses the "Luftwaffe records" among other things... but no other Museum stores the "Luftwaffe Kill reports" I seek. Is that Correct?

As you can tell I leave no stone unturned.
We have uncovered many incredible things in our 7 year search that has also caught the attention of the Dutch Media, and some top WW2 Air researchers and Military Museums that have come to our aid. I am grateful to all. And I am grateful to all who have replied & continue to reply on this form thread.

Re: Anyone ever found Luftwaffe Kill Reports?
 

Hi Marv -

Here are the answers to your questions. Others are certainly invited to chip in, too.

He is well-known to German authors of the WWII Jagdwaffe. If Ring is still alive, he would be about 82 today. Another rumor from 10 years ago indicated that he may have passed on his collection to others.

Yes, in general. The ones I saw were all from prior to July 1943, I think.

Yes, you are correct. If I or anyone else had picked up even the slightest whiff of these reports, it would have become relatively common knowledge among the research community and on this website.

Yes, that is correct. The life-long researchers who belong to this website come from all of the European countries and have collectively scoured all of the European repositories looking for Luftwaffe documentation. Any discoveries have been or would have been mentioned here at one time or another.

Larry
Florida, USA

Re: Anyone ever found Luftwaffe Kill Reports?
 

Thanks Larry for the additional information. I knew little about this form when I joined.

After that explanation, I'm surprised that I do have a Kill report for Oct-4-43. Sometimes things come to me in mysterious ways, & that was one of them. Tomorrow armed with the information that you & others provided, I will back track on that kill report and find out how it was found.

So... apparently I have a very rare & apparently unknown (up to now) Kill Report. "If" this is correct... should this be made known to a findable & accessible data base for us researcher’s somewhere?

Marv
Washington (State), USA.

Re: Anyone ever found Luftwaffe Kill Reports?
 

Marv wrote in part:

Yes, I think others would find it of considerable interest, especially since 75% or more of the Luftwaffe research community tends to focus on fighters, claims and aces. The only problem is to decided where to install it. For starters, you might contact the two moderators here - Nick Beale and John Beaman - and ask if this website might want it as a "sticky". If they are not encouraging, then here are two other possibilities:

http://www.ww2.dk/
http://www.lwag.org/index.php

Both of these are Luftwaffe research and resource sites.

Good luck with your on-going effort to find the Abschußberichten, Marv!

Larry

Re: Anyone ever found Luftwaffe Kill Reports?
 

Thanks for the information Larry. I'll post an update when I have one.

In the meantime if anyone has additional information I would like to hear from you.

Many thanks to all.

Best Regards...
Marv in USA.

Re: Anyone ever found Luftwaffe Kill Reports?
 

Yes, I think I can speak for Nick, we would welcome files or links we can put into a "sticky". Let us know. Just post it or a link and we will take care of it.