Heinkel He 51
 

The last thread on this subject was unfortunately closed and as I had hoped for a fruitful discussion of this topic and an investigation into the photo presented by Sidney, I want to take the risk and start a new thread.

Since Sidney and I can not agree on the model. I might be able to help a little on finding the date of this photograph. The numeral on the fuselage side of the aircraft, in this case "5", tell me that the photo must have been taken after 2.7.1936. On this date this new marking system for fighter aircraft was ordered by Reichsminister der Luftfahrt und Obebefehlhaber der Luftwaffe. Among several new items, each aircraft shoud carry a German numeral between 1 and 12 on the side of the fuselage in white colour and with a thin outline in black. This does not indicate the unit, merely identifying an aircraft within a Staffel. This new system was to be implimented before 1. September 1936.
The He 51 had a very short career within the Luftwaffe, being quickly replaced by the Arado Ar 68. The time span for the photo can then be July 1936 to end of 1937.

The unit insignia is not known to me, but if it is the 1./136, this is the
floatplane equipped Staffel. However, during the winter months some of these floatplanes were converted with wheel undercarriages due to the ice situation along the German North Sea coastline.

Finally I want to post three pages of repair and maintenance statistics from the three major repair facilities for the He 51. Here is given the version of each aircraft, the Werk Nummer, the date received and the number of days in for rapir or overhaul. I have a total of 14 such pages with some 350 individual aircraft. The total He 51 production was about
500 aircraft, so this should be quite representative.

If someone has different documentation it would be interesting for everyone involved.

Re: Heinkel He 51
 

I would like to clarify that there was no disagreement between us on the He 51 aircraft model in this thread http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=39584 . I certainly did not dismiss your opinion, or disputed your expertise - I merely stated that it differs from the He 51 info that I found in Prien, Stemmer and others book JFV der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934-45, Teil I, which I generally take as the primary reference.

The aforementioned thread focused on the emblem sported on the He 51 aircraft of an unidentified unit (possibly I./136). When I returned home from work, I could not believe that the thread degenerated the way it did. It appears that some members even took a pleasure in the way the discussion derailed. The thread's closure was thus the right and only thing to do.

Thank you for your assessment on the I./136, it is much appreciated. I trust that your thread on the He 51 will fare far better than mine. It is an interesting, often neglected part of the pre-WW2 Luftwaffe history and I certainly look forward to learning more on it.

Regards,
Sinisa

Re: Heinkel He 51
 

I could not believe that the thread degenerated the way it did

Neither could John and I. It's good to hear that you're finding the discussion useful — enjoy the new thread.

Re: Heinkel He 51
 

Nick, thank you for the note and, and also the effective administration of the forum that you and John exercise. Will do.

Re: Heinkel He 51
 

The main production versions of the He 51 were indeed the He 51A (207 aircraft) and B (300 aircraft) followed by some 105 He 51C - as published in Prien, Stemmer and others book JFV der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934-45, Teil I. That table was created by means of test pilots Flugbuchs from Heinkel, delivery data for individual aircraft and loss data - even those from the pre war time. The production at Heinkel and the licence companies ran from February 1935 until spring 1937.

During repairs or heavy maintenance stops all early aircraft were upgraded to the C-version which could be identified by an external tank. This upgrade is visible in the first column of each of the three pages pages presented by Seaplanes. The version is given always as: Abwandlungsmuster (modified version). During this modification process the remaining eyamples of the 30 former seaplanes He 51A-2 and B-2 became He 51D without floats. All He 51D were lost later with land based training units.

The He 51 has had a limited career as a fighter within the Luftwaffe, after roughly two years in service most of the groups became re-equipped with the Bf 109 or D during 1937. Those units, which were equipped with the Arado Ar 68, became re-equipped in 1938.

The He 51C “white 5” from the photo belonged to 1./StG 165 at Kitzingen. The initial equipment of this group since it’s formation in March 1936 were He 51 and Ar 65 with tactical markings like a fighter unit but without any colour code at the engine. These aircraft were replaced by Hs 123 in spring 1937.

Several aircraft of 1./StG 165 have had an individual symbol on a white square with a black border. Known examples are:
“white 1” a red devils head
“white 5” a winged dragon or similar
“white 10” a horse head (not a sea horse)

Re: Heinkel He 51
 

Hi, all

Highly interesting discussion. Reading from your message, Merlin, I gather that the only visible difference between these early versions is the tank?

Can you enlighten us with regards to what other differences there was?

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Heinkel He 51
 

Hello Merlin,
I am aware of the meaning of the word Abwandlung. However, these lists are preprinted forms, possibly by RLM and distributes to the involved factories.
Enclosed you will find a copy of a similar list for the Henschel Hs 126B-1
aircraft, all of which are in for repair after accidents. The damage % is given in column no. 3. There are no conversion for this or any of the
hundreds of pages listing every Luftwaffe aircraft that has been in for repair,overhaul or conversion up to 1.8.1940. In cases of conversions, this is normally noted under Baumuster.

So to the floatplane version of the He 51 (which by the way is the reason why I am interested in this type). In the file of Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv, file no. RL 36/12, there is a Kennblatt (type information) for
Heinkel He 51D (Wasser). In addition to the various data, there are photographs of D-IUPO, W.Nr. 996 and dated 15.9.1936. Such Kennblätter was issued by testing facilities, in this case by the Erprobungsstelle (See) in Travemünde. Unfortunately, I do not have a copy of this record, but it isavailable for anybody to check out in Freiburg.

Finally, if someone can produce original documentation that prove me wrong, I will the first to "eat that camel, bottom first".

Re: Heinkel He 51
 

All He 51 mentioned in the logbook Heinrich (test pilot in Rostock-Marienehe) he called He 51C or He 51D - the first was the He 51C, W.Nr.1020, D-ILUF, from 11.March 1935. On 10.November 1935 is mentioned the first He 51D - the W.Nr.1006, D-IERU. One times he mentioned an He 51A, it was the He 51V-5, D-IBAA.

Regards
Rasmussen

Re: Heinkel He 51
 

Thanks a lot Rasmussen. Actually I got a copy of this log book and its details was incorporated in my re-construction of the He 51 production. Unfortunately I forgot to mention this source in my e-mail.

The two initial He 51 prototypes delivered in February 1934 were:
He 51a W.Nr. 0429 D-2726. Land plane prototype.
He 51b W.Nr. 0430 D-2727. This aircraft was totally destroyed in a hangar fire in Warnemünde on 17. June 1934. Floatplane prototype. In the accident report this aircraft was given the designation He51B with a capital "B". This may be the reason why others have concluded that this was the designation for all He 51 floatplanes.

Re: Heinkel He 51
 

Post No.5 refers. Thank you for the assessment Gerhard, and apology for the late acknowledgement. To try and illustrate the point, attached is a copy of the negative of the photo of "White 1" of 1./StG 165, the non-commissioned officer first from the left hand side is then Fw. Robert Olejnik. The Devil's head emblem was previously thought to have been the Staffel emblem of 1./StG 165, which would be suggested by the Staffel's pilots group photo in front of the aircraft sporting this emblem. I find three, or possibly even more, personal emblems prominently sported on the aircraft flanks bit unusual feature for the early Luftwaffe period, that is 1936-37.

Regards,
Sinisa

Re: Heinkel He 51
 

Thanks to the log book of test pilot Heinrich of the Heinkel factory in Rostock-Marienehe and the repair and maintenance reports from Bundesarhiv-Militärarchiv plus some other sources, the following production break-down can be made for the He 51:
W.Nr. 25-132 He 51C Factory not known.First aircraft delivered in February 1936.
W.Nr. 242-249 He 51C Factory not known
W.Nr. 429-430 He 51a + He 51b two prototypes by Heinkel
W.Nr. 801-890 He 51C Factory not known
W.Nr. 994-995 He 51V-5 and V-6 by Heinkel
W.Nr. 996-1009 He 51D (See) by Heinkel
W.Nr. 1010-1123 He 51C by Heinkel
W.Nr. 1435-1492 He 51C by Heinkel
W.Nr. 1493-1509 He 51D (See) by Heinkel
W.Nr. 1541-1570 He 51C Factory not known
W.Nr. 1767-1780 He 51C Factory not known
W.Nr. 2134-2158 He 51C Factory not known
W.Nr. 2192-2193 He 51C or D possibly Arado
W.Nr. 2201-2203 He 51C or D possibly Arado
This indicates a production of about 500 aircraft.
Apart from the Heinkel production, I have no links to the other factories involved in the He 51 production, Arado, Erla, AGO and Fieseler.
Is there anyone out there who has the missing links. Please give references to source.

Re: Heinkel He 51
 

Although this is interesting, I do not want to be involved in a discussion about He 51 production batches, because there is much more to the picture than indicated here. I just want to address the version designation issue.

Could we please one and for all (I know that won't happen...!) get rid the old fantasies invented by Green, Nowarra, etc: There never existed any He 51 A-0, He 51 B-0, He 51 B-1, He 51 A-2, etc. Not even the "He 51 W" designation that Green mentions.

The only versions built in series were the He 51 C (Land) and He 51 D (See), and the latter was often referred to as the He 51 S or He 51 See. This is apparent to anyone who has studied original RLM documents.

The designations of the prototypes are more difficult to ascertain and there is conflicting information in different documents. For example, both of the first two prototypes were at one stage called the "He 51 A" and it also seems that they were first referred to as He 49s. It must be kept in mind that aircraft, especially prototypes, were assigned new version letters after major modifications.

Lennart Andersson

Re: Heinkel He 51
 

Re end of He 51 production I found this...
(might be incomplete)

Lieferplan 4 dated 1.11.36 (Period 04.36-06.38)
has 2 He 51S planned by Arado Brandenburg in 10.36

Lieferplan 5 dated 1.4.37 (Period 4.37 - 07.39)
has 2 He 51 (BMW VI) by Arado, 1 delivered by 31.3.37, 1 more planned in 4.37

Source: IWM Reel 24

Re: Heinkel He 51
 

Many thanks to Lennart and Ed. My main intention with this tread was to get the correct type designations for the He 51. There are unfortunately many
"old" thruts out there. Another Heinkel Aircraft, the He 59, has also been subject to many misleading info. A large number of photo captions in previous publications give a He 59B and He 59B-2 as a common version of this aircraft. The fact is that there were three protypes, 2 x He 59a and one He 59b. The series Production was a small batch of He 59C followed by several series of He 59D and He 59E, the latter a navigational trainer. The only conversion of the He 59 was the ASR version that was given the designation He 59N. This was conversions of mainly He 59D aircraft by Walther Bachmann Flugzeugwerke in Ribnitz, but that is another story.

Re: Heinkel He 51
 

Since the production at Heinkel and the licence companies ran from February 1935 until spring 1937, that is a time-span of some 2+ years, I would like to know whether there were any sub-types to He 51 C variant (such as He 51 C-1, C-2, etc...), as discussed above. I suspect that the He 51 aircraft manufactured in 1937 was somewhat more advanced than the one manufactured in 1935.

Re: Heinkel He 51
 

In the case of the He 51 it was more or less the same aircraft throughout, the only difference being the undercarriage, wheels for landplanes and floats for seaplanes. There could of course be minor updates to various equipment and installation of optional equipment such as bomb racks or rack for extra fuel tank. However, such changes did not necessarirly require a change of designation. The use of sub-type designations became more common after 1939. Again to use the He 59 as comparison, Heinkel called their He 59D version for just that, where as Arado called their He 59D for D-1. It was never a D-2. RLM and Luftwaffe used only He 59D.

Re: Heinkel He 51
 

I am sorry but this is all wrong. Total production for the RLM was as follows:
473 He 51 Land (Heinkel 145, Arado Brandenburg 69, Erla 80, Fieseler 102 and Ago 77)
33 He 51 See (Heinkel 31 and Arado Brandenburg 2, last example delivered between 1.4 and 1.7.1937)
Total = 506

Lennart A

Re: Heinkel He 51
 

Post No.16 refers. Thank you for further clarification in this regard.

Re: Heinkel He 51
 

Comment to Lennart:
There are different figures in a variety of contemporary records. In the RLM Flugzeugbeschaffungsprogramm Nr. 5 von 1. April 1937 the total of He 51 landplanes is given as 458 and for He 51 floatplanes 31 aircraft. The same number of aircraft is given in a letter dated 11. January 1938 giving the number of aircraft for "Ausgelaufende Flugzeugserien".
The RLM Lieferplan Nr. 1a give the breakdown of He 51 landplanes as:
Heinkel 145, Arado 69, Erla 72, Fieseler 102 and AGO 97. However, I do know that these figures reflect what was on order on 01.10.1935 and nothing else These production charts were subject to alterations all the time and makes life difficult for us in 2014. In the Bundesarchiv file RL 3/2617 from end of 1940, give the total He 51 production including prototypes to 502 aircraft. Unfortunately this file only give the output per month totally, not broken down on factory involved. Can I ask what is your source.

Re: Heinkel He 51
 

Well, not in the copy that I have, LC III(1a1) LPNr 5 v 1.4.37, which is exactly as I indicated, with all 473 already delivered. This number included 458 plus 15 for Erpobung, etc. Such aircraft are not included in all plans, which can cause confusion. I am not sure but I think that they were ordered by different offices (LA and LC).


See above. Nachtrag zum Flugzeugbeschaffungs-Programm Nr 8 vom 1.7.38 (dated 25.6.38 and showing numbers for types that were "ausgelaufen") shows 473 He 51 and 33 He 51D.

Correct. The first plan was for only 114 Heinkel, 24 Arado Brandenburg and 9 (increased to 12) Fieseler.

Yes, but it also says 473 for the RLM and 29 "Zivil + Export".

Conclusion: Total production for the RLM was 473 plus 33 of the floatequipped version.

Lennart

Re: Heinkel He 51
 

Thank you Lennart. I have only two more questions. First, if the 12 He 51 exported to Bulgaria was a commercial export directly by Heinkel, or was it aircraft taken from RLM contracts. Secondly, do you have any links between the W.Nr. batches mentioned in my posting of 13.11. and the various factories involved.

Re: Heinkel He 51
 

Hello again!

I think that the Bulgarian aircraft might have been new, and not from RLM stocks, because I have a note that they were from Fireseler production (and not mixed from different factories). If so, what were the other 17 "civil+ export"? Perhaps Spain? Legion Condor and Spain is a "black hole" in the history of German aircraft. As far as I know, no one has found any archive material that lists aircraft sent to Spain in detail.

C/ns. As this is a vast subject I do not think that it is useful to discuss it in this context. I have collected a lot of data and one day perhaps I will realise a project that I have had on the backburner for several years: a book on German military aircraft and aviation during the period 1919-1935, based on research in German archives.

Lennart A

Re: Heinkel He 51
 

I have on my HD of my computer 4 different verband kennzeichen (vkz) showing both land ans see versions 60+A41 60+B41 60+G41 60+I41 Are these converted aircraft or are these vkz used twice?

Peter van Gogh

Re: Heinkel He 51
 

Hi

These vkz were used several times for varying a/c types , typically a serial used say firstly on a Do 23 then Ju 52 and then Ju 86 s the Unit upgraded its aircraft

The c/n range 25-132 were Erla production

Tony

Re: Heinkel He 51
 

Hi Tony
I understand I have many double verbandkennzeichen
But 4 He51 in these markings as land version and also see versions is a bit strange I think.
Regards
Peter van Gogh

Re: Heinkel He 51
 

I have not studied the technical details of the He 51, but Volker Koos writes in his Heinkel book that the He 51D could be converted to landplane.

Lennart A

Re: Heinkel He 51
 

thanks Lennart

If so, it is very difficult to see the original version from pictures.

Peter van Gogh

Re: Heinkel He 51
 

One of the few known Wnr. of a Legion Condor He-51. Plates recovered in Spanish crash site. Hope could be of interest to determine posible batches involved in the export to this country.

Best
Fran

Re: Heinkel He 51
 

Posts 28 & 29

Hi Fran - No known export W/Nr batches but I have this W/Nr within the Arado W/Nr sequence of 1767 to 1783. Known losses used by the Lw are
1774 - 1776 1779 & 1780.
Does anybody hve anymore?

Regards
Tom Willis

Re: Heinkel He 51
 

Thanks for sharing this info. The number plate indicate that W.Nr. 1772 was built in 1936 by Arado Brandenburg and it was a land-plane (Ld=Land).
My listing for this small batch runs from 1767 through to 1780, all He 51C aircraft. My opinion is that all He 51's used by the Legion Condor was planes
from Luftwaffe contracts. Apparently no commercial export of these aircraft to the Spanish National Forces took place.

Re: Heinkel He 51
 

Very interesting. Are there more? I agree that it is a He 51 Land (He 51C) built by Arado Brandenburg in 1936.

Lennatrt A

Re: Heinkel He 51
 

Post No.5 and No.10 refer. If I am not mistaken, apart from the following aircraft from 1./StG 165: "white 1" a red devils head; "white 5" a winged dragon or similar; "white 10" a horse head (not a sea horse), we now also have "white 8".

Cannot make the emblem's motif though. Any thoughts?

Source: A recently expired eBay auction here http://www.ebay.de/itm/221695261253?...84.m1435.l2649 (... in spite of my best effort, it was not meant to be)

Re: Heinkel He 51
 

Hi - As the time is nearing 12 months since this the last discussion on the He 51 I would like to re-start this in the hope that something new can emerge.
Tony Jones gave the Erla Production as 25 to 133 but Erla Production was in 2 sections - 62 to 133 and 242 to 249 - Total 80.
Ago built the 1st W/Nrs from 25 to 61. Then 2134 to 2160 and 2192 to 2204 - Total 77.
Fieseler built 102 from 801 to 902 and Arado a total of 71 from 1437 to 1461 - 1542 to 1570 and 1767 to 1783.
Are there anymore documents giving more W/Nrs and the repair details of more He 51s? Are there more for other Types?

Regards Tom