Late War Fw 190 Build Quality
 

Hi guys

Various sources that I have read make mention of the very poor workmanship exhibited by Bf 109 G-series and K-series fighters produced in 1944 and 1945. Examples include accounts describing the Swiss experience with the 12 Bf 109 G-6 fighters purchased in May 1944 and the 18 March 1945 report the Technischer Offizier of JG 6 wrote listing a variety of problems encountered by the unit with newly delivered aircraft. However, I have never really come across accounts describing similar troubles with Fw 190 A-series and D-series fighters built during the same time period. This is not to say that there were not quality control issues with the Focke-Wulf fighter but rather that I have the perhaps erroneous impression that these were not as severe as those suffered by the Messerschmitt fighter. Were there consistent serious problems encountered by units equipped with this type related to poor workmanship? Was there a noticeable difference between the aircraft built by one factory as compared to another, i.e., Focke-Wulf versus Fieseler for example? Many thanks for any comments.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Late War Fw 190 Build Quality
 

Leo,

I know I read this and will need to track down where, but I recall reading this about the Fw-190 tail piece. It did not have 'pre--drilled' perfectly aligned rivet holes and so when a tail unit was attached to the fuselage, while it had to have the same number of rivets, any given fuselage and tail pairings might not match up rivet holes exactly with another Fw-190 fuselage if they had to be swapped.

Tony

Re: Late War Fw 190 Build Quality
 

The wooden wing flaps on both the Fw 190D-9 and Ta 152H comes to mind, but I'm not sure if they were just poorly built or if it was the design that was flawed and didn't work in the field.

Re: Late War Fw 190 Build Quality
 

Tony. Your comment is only relevant to "poor workmanship" if the parts were intended to be interchangeable. Even decades after WW2, there were many parts on many aircraft that were not interchangeable, as achieving this is expensive. Interchangeable parts would indeed come predrilled and pre-prepared, but this required dedicated tooling and additional time in production. Replacement parts were provided without the (in this case) rivet holes predrilled, so that this could be done in the repair workshop at the time of the repair. It seems that these Fw190 tails, being predrilled, were not considered as interchangeable. At least between factory lines.

Consider the Merlin Mustang. Supposedly the same aircraft that were built in two separate factories were given different variant designations (P-51B and P-51C) to ensure that the supply chain was provided with enough different parts to provide for both.

Re: Late War Fw 190 Build Quality
 

The designation was based on where the aircraft were built. P-51B - Inglewood, CA., P-51C - Dallas, TX. The parts were interchangeable.
Much like the Corsair, Chance Vought F4U, Goodyear FG-1, and Brewster F3A, the parts were interchangeable.

Re: Late War Fw 190 Build Quality
 

This isn't so - else there would have been no need for any change in designation. You can see similar differentiation on other types, for example the B-24H being limited to Ford production. Please be careful with the use of the term "interchangeable". This has a specific engineering meaning, where one piece can be simply transferred off one aircraft and onto another without any rework. "Plug and Play", if you like. Other replacement parts may look common but could not be fitted to the "wrong" airframe without rework. As appears to have been the case with these Fw190 tails.

You can certainly guarantee that the majority of the airframe parts on WW2 aircraft were not interchangeable, even from the same production line, because this costs time and money to achieve. Production lines committed to long runs of the same type will have more interchangeable items than lines run on shorter batch orders, because of the ability of justify investment in more extensive tooling.

Re: Late War Fw 190 Build Quality
 

My comments below are not intended to address the Fw-190 production.

A rudder, elevator, aileron, horizontal stabilizer, canopy, engine cowling, etc.. of a P-51B will bolt on to and fit (plug and play) a P-51C.

Another example are the wings for the Corsair, they were contracted out and built by Briggs Stratton (sp?). These wings were then shipped to Goodyear and Chance Vought, and then bolted on to the center sections. (Interchangeable).
If you ever have the chance to inspect a flyable FG-1D Corsair (built by Goodyear), look at the gear doors, flaps, elevators. You will most likely see data plates from various versions of Vought built F4U (-4, -5) parts being used. (All interchangeable).

Re: Late War Fw 190 Build Quality
 

You are generally quoting major interfaces, on mass production types built on expensive tooling. What about the smaller parts? And did all these parts fit without fettling? If not, they were not "interchangeable".

If everything had been interchangeable (which few if any aircraft ever has been, fully) then there would have been no need for any change of designation. These things are not done just for show, to let the pilot know where the machine was built - why should he care? They are normally done to clarify the logistics, to indicate that differences exist and that the two should not be confused. Generally this is not something that will affect flight qualities - but it has been at times. (eg Blackburn built Swordfish or London Transport Halifaxes, which did not have different variant designations.) When it comes to aircraft variants, it may be because one line used (eg) Sperry parts and the other (eg) Lockheed. Normally, however, this is because a piece taken off one aircraft will not match perfectly the hole of another, and has not been built to the standard for which this can be expected.

Re: Late War Fw 190 Build Quality
 

Exactly which aircraft are you working on that parts from one airframe will not fit another?
I've spent years rebuilding WWII aircraft and quite simply you have been mis-informed. A P-51B-1NA is the same as a P-51C-1NT other than the location built.

Re: Late War Fw 190 Build Quality
 

Focke-Wulf-built Fw190D-9 had supposedly the best finish and could archieve due their smooth finish a few km/h more! That is from a report of Olt Ossenkopp, the technical officer of 2./JG26.

Best regards

Re: Late War Fw 190 Build Quality
 

It becomes even more complicated as many of the new builds were really rebuilds.

Re: Late War Fw 190 Build Quality
 

This is an interesting and important point, and it's often forgotten when discussing German aircraft production. And I'm always ready to hear more about it if anyone is willing to share their insights and knowledge.

Bronc

Re: Late War Fw 190 Build Quality
 

I think even very later war Fw 190s were often upgraded/rebuilt early airframes... where one could even find a traits of old version on the aircraft "built" to new specification.

Please note - regarding "interchangeable" parts - it is not the same if we talk about grafting complete subassemblies like a pre-produced tail ready for installment on Fw190 fuselage compared to rudder of the same tail. I think that's where the problem comes from.
Rudder would easily fit with it's standard size of the hatches from machine to machine even probably on different model (i.e. G-6 tail to G-10 if the distance of hinges was the same) but a tail who's holes were drilled to fit certain fuselage would be hard to fit to new fuselage. Otherwise we would be seeing many more Franken-crafts out there built of different sub-assemblies that need riveting. I think holes for bolts or screws were more precisely drilled since such parts would presume easier removal (i.e. wings on Bf 109s and so on).
Best,
Miloš

Re: Late War Fw 190 Build Quality
 

I can give you two examples of first hand knowledge that the workmanship on late war Luftwaffe fighters was poor. Bf 109G-10/U4 "Black 2" of II./JG 52 was in Atlanta, Georgia in 1965 when I first saw it. The owner died and I arranged for John Caler to buy the fuselage and have it shipped to his home in California. We spent the next months working on it in including removing the skin. The quality of the construction was terrible. For instance, the left side of the rear fuselage did not line up with right . As a result the left side was longer and was crudely hammered over so the rudder would work. We measured the fuselage panels and was amazed as to how different the dimensions were. The riveting overall was not straight and was poorly done. This G-10 has been restored and is now in the US Air Force museum with JG 300 markings. The Fw 190D-13 was owned by the same person and was sold I had the opportunity to work on it also. It to was poorly constructed. For instance when the wing was opened up for restoration their were a lot of shims and pieces of aluminum forced into areas that did not line up properly. Interestingly there were many autographs of the builders of the wing inside. The riveting was also of poor quality.
Cheers, Jerry

Re: Late War Fw 190 Build Quality
 

The Messerschmitt fuselages were manufactured by unskilled, nearly-famished KZ workers under terrible conditions in subterranean production sites at Mauthausen-Gusen. Wings and final assembly were done in former quarry buildings in KZ Flossenbürg. The left-over skilled workers were busy with development of high-tech weapons. German skilled workers were sent to the slaughter at the fronts in east and west. Production in wood was introduced, not because material was scarce, but because there was still capacity in timber-processing industry with semi-skilled workers, foreign workers and KZ convicts. Read Peter Schmolls description of the working conditions and you´ll know, why the craftmanship was poor. Those final planes are soaked in blood, sweat and tears - that we must not forget in spite of our enthusiasm for those machines.

Regards
RolandF

Re: Late War Fw 190 Build Quality
 

Thanks, both to you Jerry for sharing your experience, and to you Roland, for remembering us by whom and where those planes were crafted.

Sincerely
Marc

Re: Late War Fw 190 Build Quality
 

another example of 'crude' workmanship is the Bf 109 G-14/AS (U4?) fuselage preserved at the Military Museum in Brussels.

ClinA-78

Re: Late War Fw 190 Build Quality
 

sorry talking about FW 190...