Luftwaffe Loss ...a P38 Lightning
 

Hi,

Just checked the Lerche book and ref he never got to fly a P38. But he did note that around the time he flew the SM91 he never got the chance to fly the Luftwaffe's captured example of the P38 Lightning as it had crashed.

Question 1
Anyone got details of this crash , such as date,( around October 1943?) place, name of pilot, his fate, (did he survive the crash?)?

From AVIONS no: 72 page 8/9 has if my understanding is correct.
There were two (2) P38's coded as T9+MK.The second T9+MK was 44-23725.

Question 2
What was the first T9+MK' serial number ?

Another P38 was coded T9+XB , this was 42-68274.
Question 3
Was this the ex Italian a/c used by Tondi ?

Thanks

Alex

Re: Luftwaffe Loss ...a P38 Lightning
 

Pictures of the first P - 38 from Italy show code T9 XB. This aircraft was apparently never flown after ferry flight due to engine damage from low octane fuel.The Mosquito that was captured also was coded T9 XB - from pictures.
P - 38 F5E - flown by AAF Lt. Martin Monti was T9 MK #4423725. Recovered at end of War.
no record of P - 38 crash. There were only these 2 P - 38s listed as captured
Pilot Oblt. Leo Potjans Killed in crash of P - 51B T9 HK Dec.10,44
Pilot Fw. Herbert Gold killed in crash of Hawker Typhoon T9 GK July 28,44

Re: Luftwaffe Loss ...a P38 Lightning
 

Hi,

Thanks for reply.

Here is the problem, re the P38 crash , Lerche mentions this on page 47 of his book Luftwaffe Test Pilot.

The other problem is that F5 42-68274 belonged to the 6th Recce Group in the Pasific and was lost (MACR 9803) on the 24/10/44. so no way could she be T9+XB captured in 1943 in Europe. Nore could it be that used by the Italian's.

Alex

Re: Luftwaffe Loss ...a P38 Lightning
 

Alex - In the famous photo of the F5E, taken when it was found at Schwangau at the end of the War , 357th FG pilot Roland Wright is standing on the Stabilizer. He noted that the nose gear had collapsed.
Could this be the " crash " mentioned ?

Re: Luftwaffe Loss ...a P38 Lightning
 

Actually This Lighting was lost on Oct 13 1944, a certain USAAF Second Lieutenant Martin James Monti defected to German with this aircraft, more detail info could be found at :

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...8686&highlight=

Re: Luftwaffe Loss ...a P38 Lightning
 

Hi,

Not the Monti one.

Much too late.

T9+XB was also not the same mark .

Italian captured P38 taken on 12th June 1943.

But i think that there must have been one captured much earlier than that one.

Ist FG Pilot reported to have been shot down by a german P38 on 30th March 1943.

If T9+XB was the Italian a/c then when did it get sent to Rechlin ? Was it there for the September 1943 Air show ?

If it was then when were the Luftwaffe markings applied ?

Alex

Re: Luftwaffe Loss ...a P38 Lightning
 

Alex - Been reading comments on the P - 38 pictured in Italy.
In the book " On Special Missions , LW Research and Special Missions Squadrons." by Smith , Creek , Petrick- there is a color photo of P - 38
T9 XB taken at Rechlin along with photos of other Allied A/C 9-19- 43.
The photo caption says " most likely from 14th AF, landed on German AF.
Flown to Berlin by FW. Heinz Girnth JG 53
Note - photo of Mosquito at Rechlin shows code T9 XB.
Many photos Of the F5E during LW service and at Schwangau AF, 1945 as stated earlier.
cheers

Re: Luftwaffe Loss ...a P38 Lightning
 

Hi Alex,
your post gave me the chance to turn out an old book,
strangers in a strange land has a photo of T9+XB, with the comment

' the lightning was later used in an airshow put on at rechlin during late 1943 '

also of interest maybe ? but O/T,

' a F4U-1 corsair was on luftwaffe strength reports for august & september 1944 '

Cheers
Jerry

Re: Luftwaffe Loss ...a P38 Lightning
 

Hi,

Thank you Shoo ShooBabe and Jerry,

Had not looked at "Strangers" text on this for a while. just goes to show that cannot always rely on memory. Its the text to the colour photo on page 44. Thanks Jerry.

Shoo', the book you mention is one that I do not have sorry to say.
14th Air Force (India/China/Burma) ?

Thanks again

Alex

Re: Luftwaffe Loss ...a P38 Lightning
 

FW. Heinz Girnth JG 53

'Shoo,

What do you have on this pilot if anything ?

Alex

Re: Luftwaffe Loss ...a P38 Lightning
 

Further reading of Marco Mattioli's book on the P38 in Italian Service.

After the Germans took over Guidonia air base on the 10th September 1943

"So the Centro Sperimentale's Lightning ended its career with the Regia Aeronautica Italiana by passing to the German Luftwaffe, and met its end during the Allied bombing actions upon Guidonia on the 1st and 3rd of June 1944. The Italian Lightning , caught by surprise outside its hangar was totally destroyed and its wreckage were picked up and piled up on a corner south of the air base alongside the scrap heap of German aircraft and other prottypes previously destroyed."

Alex

Re: Luftwaffe Loss ...a P38 Lightning
 

Alex - I screwed up. Meant to say P - 38 was from 14th FIGHTER GROUP.
12th AF - sorry! No more info on Girnth. Hopefully a Luftwaffe historian can help.
This is an excellent book. photos and info on all captured A/C etc. plus other operations.
Another excellent book , "KG 200 , LW most secret unit" by Thomas and Ketley - Hikoki Publications
Cheers

Re: Luftwaffe Loss ...a P38 Lightning
 

Alex - I have found accounts of a P - 38 that landed in Sardinia at an Italian Air Base circa May 43 . The P - 38 was flown by pilot Guido Rossi and shot down several U.S. Bombers. He was shot down while attacking a B - 17 , ditched in the Med and rescued.
Mike

Re: Luftwaffe Loss ...a P38 Lightning
 

Hey guys, this is a heads-up...I came up with the Guido Rossi story while talking to a fellow Italian buff...And he nearly wanted to kill me!:mad: He explained that the only Lightning operated by Italy during WWII was flown by Tondi alone. Everything else is a very die-hard piece of misinformation which has been going on for YEARS!!

Re: Luftwaffe Loss ...a P38 Lightning
 

Exactly... please stop all this "Guido Rossi" nonsense! It is a heritage of the fantasy of Martin Caidin and has been doing damage for years...

There was only one P-38 in Regia Aeronautica ranks,which was captured on 12 June 1943 in Sardinia where a ferrying US pilot landed by mistake due to the malfunctioning of the compass.

Soon brought to the Italian Test Center of Guidonia (near Rome), this aircraft was flown *with Italian markings* by Col. Angelo Tondi (Chief test pilot of the center) in half a dozen scrambles against USAAF bombers attacking Rome and Central Italy's targets.

On 11 August 1943 Col. Tondi intercepted off the coast the B-17F s/n 42-30307 of 419th BS, 301st BG and shot down it at 12.00 hrs*.

This was the only successful interception completed by this aircraft and soon after the P-38 was grounded due to the bad quality of the Italian petrol that had corroded the fuel tanks.

* (cfr. Missing Air Crew Report n.490 available at the National Archives)


If you want to see at a few photographs of this Lightning (some totally unpublished), have a look here (the images are extracted from the forum of the 150° Gruppo Aut. Caccia Terrestre at http://www.150gct.it/modules.php?nam...&highlight=p38 and http://www.150gct.it/modules.php?nam...&highlight=p38):

http://premium1.uploadit.org/mapalm/...02sc-copia.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/mapalm//File1257-copia.jpg

http://1stfighter.org/photos/Misc/P38_Italian_1.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/mapalm//File1000-copia.jpg

Re: Luftwaffe Loss ...a P38 Lightning
 

hello Veltro,

A welcome responce.

Have seen the photos before.

There is one though that is not shown. It too is said to be a captured P38 but has different camoflage demarcation lines.

What of the 1st Fighter Group (P38's) Pilot who reported that he was shot down by a captured German P38 ( North Africa I beleive) on the 30th May 1943.

This was before the 12th June 1943 Sardinia landing Pilot and a/c serial number still undetermined as yet.

If both the Germans in N. Africa and also the Italians had captured P38's then it would fit the Rossi story of been shot down into the sea in one ( no date given for that event), this would also fit the Lerch report that he had no chance to fly the captured P38 due to it crashing before he had a chance to fly in it. While the other ended up at Rechlin as T9+XB for the 19th September 1943 Air Show and met its end during the Allied bombing actions upon Guidonia on the 1st and 3rd of June 1944. So when and why was it flown back to Italy ?

Martin Monti's stolen F5E serial 44-23725 an almost brand new a/c was flown into captivity by him on the 13th October 1944 and became T9+MK she was recaptured at Schwangau, Germany in May of 1945. She only had yellow undersides added after capture no other camoflage.

All for now

Great art work

Alex

Re: Luftwaffe Loss ...a P38 Lightning
 

I would need precise reference of the photo you are speaking of. There was no other P-38 captured by the Italians or in Italian markings, so I really don't know what it was.

Certainly it wasn't an Italian one and I have no informations at all of any P-38 captured by the Germans in the Mediterranean...

At any rate, please trash in the dubstin any reference to Martin Caidin's "Guido Rossi", which was nothing more than the expanded version of a B-series tale involving wife of US bomber pilot going to bed with that Italish fictional character and then with the betrayed pilot managing to get his revenge by shooting down the P-38 with a YB-40... pityful, pathetic garbage, which shouldn't be touched even with pliers...:rolleyes:

BTW, the story of Martin J. Monti was discovered by me in details and published at first in one article in 1992 (it is scanned in one of the links of my previous posts) and then in one of my books in 1996.

Re: Luftwaffe Loss ...a P38 Lightning
 

Hello Ferdinando,

Thank you for your reply.

At any rate, please trash in the dubstin any reference to Martin Caidin's "Guido Rossi", which was nothing more than the expanded version of a B-series tale involving wife of US bomber pilot going to bed with that Italish fictional character and then with the betrayed pilot managing to get his revenge by shooting down the P-38 with a YB-40... pityful, pathetic garbage, which shouldn't be touched even with pliers...:rolleyes:

I haven't got a clue about this, what this all about , some new film or other ?

The 1st Fighter Group Pilots report was of a German P38, not an Italian one.

As for the other photo it might be able to see it on the new LEMB website if it survived from the old one. I have not looked in that section of late.

All the best , have a great day :)

Alex

Re: Luftwaffe Loss ...a P38 Lightning
 

To be precise, it was a novel titled (literally): "One of our fighters is shooting us down!" by Glenn Infield, published in early post-war years by an aviation magazine and whose plot was exactly as reported. This tale apparently fascinated Caidin, who made the story his own and proposed it again under his label...

It may sounds crazy but this is how it went... :o

Re: Luftwaffe Loss ...a P38 Lightning
 

Hello,
Just to perhaps reopen this thread, I recently saw in a book on Italian P-38's a picture of the first one that was captured. Front right forward nose shot, shows four numbers on the nose that end with 76, Is it possible to match the "76" to a Serial number ?

Re: Luftwaffe Loss ...a P38 Lightning
 

Ebay p-38 german markings crashed https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/thread...3#post-1548916

Re: Luftwaffe Loss ...a P38 Lightning
 

Excellent observation! What you see is Lockheed Construction Number which does refer to USAAF serial number. The number on the photo appears to be 7167, which, if I count correctly, indicates a P-38G-1-LO s/n 41-12733.

Re: Luftwaffe Loss ...a P38 Lightning
 

Don't know which photo you refer to, but the four digit numbers on the Lightning noses usually refer to the USAAF s/n.

There were two Lockheed c/n 7167,
first one 222-7167 which was 42-12733 (not 41-12733)
second one 422-7167which was 44-26163 (a P-38L-5). If it was converted to a F-5F/G is unknown to me.
I also thought all F-5A (based on the P-38G) were built as such from the beginning, ie no conversions later on meaning 42-12733 stayed as a P-38G.
But I might be wrong there.

If the nose carries 7167 as you suggest, I would say it rather indicates a J-model 42-67167.

What ever the case a good picture would probably settle it one way or the other :)
Cheers
Stig

Re: Luftwaffe Loss ...a P38 Lightning
 

Thank you both gentlemen for the swift response.
It was "??67" so could be 7167 as Maciej suggests.

So-
If it is 7167(Maciej's) then it was 42-12733.

Which landed in error at Capoterra on 12th June 1943 that is believed to have become T9+XB.

Your thought's ?
Alex

Re: Luftwaffe Loss ...a P38 Lightning
 

....and where is the photo?
Cheers
Stig

Re: Luftwaffe Loss ...a P38 Lightning
 

Lockheed construction numbers recorded with small digits on the nose can be seen throughout the entire production run, I've seen them on Js as well - in such cases the last digits of the USAAF serial number are sometimes superimposed with large digits over the small c/n - see example here: https://www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/21474


The photo in question might be found in 'Ali Straniere in Italia vol.6' p.7 and Avions No.210 p.24 (perhaps also in other sources, but I have these two publications at hand). It clearly isn't a J or L as it does not have the chin distinctive for these versions, nor a recon variant.

Now it would be useful to check the IARC for 42-12733 - does any US-based member would be so kind to call the AFHRA and request the file? Unfortunately, it usually takes them around half a year to handle requests sent by email.

Re: Luftwaffe Loss ...a P38 Lightning
 

Hello Gentlemen,
So sorry my error, just found my bit of paper where I wrote down the number. I was ??67" as Maciej said.
I have edited my earlier post.
Yes I think that that was the book that Maciej has mentioned.
And to confirm that it was "small" numbers 7167 think would have been in yellow on camouflaged surface

322-7167 which as pointed out by Stig was 42-12733,

P38G-1
Contract AC21217, a/c serials 42-12687 - 42-12766.
322-7121 - 222-7200
Total of 80 a/c.
Not an F-5,
They were -
F5A-1
42-12667 - 42-12686 (7101 - 7120) 20 a/c which were ex P-38F-5's.
(ref: Roy Cross Lightning by Kookaburra).

I have looked on line at 1st,14th and 82nd FG's aircraft numbers but could not find a match. IIRC the pilot was made POW and was with the 82nd FG, can you confirm this please ?

Alex.

Re: Luftwaffe Loss ...a P38 Lightning
 

[quote=Maciej Góralczyk;313556]Lockheed construction numbers recorded with small digits on the nose can be seen throughout the entire production run, I've seen them on Js as well - in such cases the last digits of the USAAF serial number are sometimes superimposed with large digits over the small c/n - see example here: https://www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/21474


The photo in question might be found in 'Ali Straniere in Italia vol.6' p.7 and Avions No.210 p.24 (perhaps also in other sources, but I have these two publications at hand). It clearly isn't a J or L as it does not have the chin distinctive for these versions, nor a recon variant. /QUOTE]

Ah yes, one of those. Indeed a Lockheed c/n. However whenever you can view a complete aircraft, that is see both the tail number AND the nose number, they basically always correspond. I have plenty of those.

Also looked in my copy of Ali Vol 6 page 7 and I agree it is a Lockheed number and not a USAAF s/n. Only the digits 67 are readily visible. 7167? Could well be. The date of the US loss is said to be 12 June 1943.
Looking in MAW 4 they have a 3 PRG ('P-38' s/n unknown) flown by 2/Lt Hartle as lost that day. Aircraft captured and pilot POW.
Since the aircraft in the photo is not a PR version, the question arises, did the PRGs also have pure fighter aircraft at their disposal?
The Italians further complicate the situation by stating (on page 69) "that USAAF archives reveal s/n 43-2439 was reported missing (that day I presume) but no details are given about the unit and the theater of operations". The booklet also connect this aircraft to the German T9+XB.

I don't have any P-38/F-5 IARC but I have looked at many others, and it is rare indeed for any of them to mention any unit.
Again I agree it would be interesting to see the cards for both of them, but 43-2439 should correspond to c/n 322-3548 and that is certainly not what we can read on the nose of the aircraft!

Cheers
Stig

Re: Luftwaffe Loss ...a P38 Lightning
 

Just for info and ref.
From Roy Cross's book.
More possibilities.
Early P-38 and F-4 @ F-5's "67's".

P-38D - 40-796 - 122 -2267
P-38E - 41-2249 - 222- 5467
P-38F - 41-2349 - 222-5567
P-38F-1 - 41-7540 - 222-5667
P-38F-5 - 42-12633 - 322-7067
P-38F-13 - 43-2058 - 322-3167
P-38F-15 - 43-2158 - 3267
P-38G-1 - 42-12733 - 322-7167
P-38G- 5 - 42-12824 - 322-967
P-38G-10 - 42-12922 - 322-1067
P-38G-10 - 42-13034 - 322-7467
P-38G-10 - 42-13133 - 322-7567
P-38G-10 - 42-13333 - 322-7667
P-38G-10 - 42-13437 - 322-7767
P-38G-10 - 42-13527 - 322-7867
P-38G-15 - 43- 2258 - 322 - 3367
P-38G-15 - 43- 2558 - 322-3667
F-4- 1 - 41-2149 - 5367
F-5B-1 - 42- 67356 - 1867

Alex

Re: Luftwaffe Loss ...a P38 Lightning
 

Don't know which photo you are looking at Ed
But the one which carries "71"67 on the nose is certainly either an F or G.
Certainly not any J-L which had the much larger chin-radiator.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Luftwaffe Loss ...a P38 Lightning
 

Indeed Ed

However that is not the one we discuss on the present topic.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Luftwaffe Loss ...a P38 Lightning
 

What photo do you mean? The Italian P-38 whose several photos might be found in the two aforementioned sources is obviously not an J-L, please don't move the discussion into muddy waters.

EDIT: ah, ok, that photo has nothing to do with this thread, it shows F-5E s/n 44-23725 as T9+MK of 2./Versuchsverband Ob.d.L.

Getting back to the subject, I am quite sure that the first two digits as seen on the photo of the Italian machine are 71 (BTW, period colour photos of early Ligthnings show that c/n digits were painted in NG 43 rather than yellow mentioned in one of previous posts). I have just a few IARCs for P-38s that served in MTO and at least these ones do include info on their unit assignments, so perhaps the IARC for 42-12733 may bring us the necessary info.