Very early VVS Hurricane loss (E-Bay photos)
 

Hello!

These ended auction photos were pointed to me by a fríend. They show Soviet Hurricane after forced landing and inspected by German soldiers. There seems to be first snow on the ground, but the soldiers are still wearing summer clothing. RAF code looks to end with digits ...40 and there is darkish large number 02 on the fuselage side. The Hurricane still has the original weapons.

I assume (so caveat!) that this is an early loss in North. The little loss data I have does not give any individual details for the late 1941 Soviet Hurricane losses (= "early loss" in this context).

What is the Hurricane identity? Is anyone on this forum able to crack this case? Juri Rybin in Russia certainly has the best knowledge of the subject, but seems his published articles and book(s) are of no help. Nor are the Finnish archives as the loss clearly has taken place in the German held area.


Photo links:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/281530156722?...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

http://www.ebay.de/itm/281530158361?...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

http://www.ebay.de/itm/281530159442?...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


Cheers and Success for all Forumers for the New Year!
Kari

PS It seems the larger photos are not available online any more

Re: Very early VVS Hurricane loss (E-Bay photos)
 

Mots probably this is en ex 151. Wing RAF Hurricane IIB, All were handed over to 72. SAP VVS NF, which nad base in Vayenga. The losses in 1941 were very samll if Iam right remeber 2 planes, more were since April 1942

regards,
mw

Re: 78 IAP VVS SF? (E-Bay photos)
 

Small correction, it was rather 78. IAP VVS SF, which was created on 72. SAP VVS SF, and had got all HCs IIB from 151. WING RAF - 33 examples in X 1941. 10 of them were lost up to the end of 1941 - combat and non-comabt reasons.

regards,
mw

Re: Very early VVS Hurricane loss (E-Bay photos)
 

Hello!

Mirek, thank You for the activity.

Forgot to add this in my opening post:
In his Red Stars 4 book (Lend-Lease planes) Carl-Fredrik Geust has listed 39 of the 40 Hurricane individuals of the 151 Wing (Fate of one Hurricane is unclear). None of them has RAF serial ending with digits ...40.

On the other hand Z4006, Z4018 from 81 sqn and Z4012 and Z4013 from 134 sqn were at Vajenga. If the last two serial digits were painted over, these could be candidates. The photo is not too clear in this regard.


I guess the plane in the photos is one of the first ones delivered directly to VVS. And I agree VVS SF unit is more probable.


Cheers,
Kari

Re: Very early VVS Hurricane loss (E-Bay photos)
 

BTW I have send a few years ago a small correction to him about his book Red Stars 4 (about HCs in Russia and 151. Wing too) with these numbers. He had mede small errors during rewriting, If I am right 2 or 3.

I have done and edited twice in Poland the story about 151 Wing in Russia, so I can make such correction. Mark Sheppard has a lot data about this wing, he is real an expet on this topic too.

BTW the serials of lost Hurricanes by 78. IAP VVS SF up to the end of 1941: BD822, Z3763, Z3977, Z4006, Z4017, Z5205, Z5207, Z5227, Z5253, Z5267

So it could be from then next planes lost in early 1942?

Regards,
mw

Re: Very early VVS Hurricane loss (E-Bay photos)
 

Hi Mirek

Would you mind sharing your found faults with the rest of us?
I am sure those of us who have Red Stars vol 4 would like to correct it.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Very early VVS Hurricane loss (E-Bay photos)
 

Hi
Ask Carl, it was a few years ago, I do not have this e-mail. But he had done some correction list to his Red Stars 4 and later despached all improvments to all interested. This is not any secret. Frankly it is an old thing, but not very, very.

Regards
mw

Re: Very early VVS Hurricane loss (E-Bay photos)
 

Hi Kari and Mirek,

Firstly Happy New Year and all the best for 2015.

Three very nice photos of a Hawker Hurricane IIB. Cannot ascertain whether it was a standard or a 'Trop' version that 81 & 134Sqn of 151 Wing were equipped.

From the evidence it would indicate it is a Hurricane ENDING with ...40. Generally the serials were not painted out by the VVS but still used as a reference in their records.

As there as no Hurricanes of 151 Wing ending with ...40 then this connection can be ruled out.

I know that the Soviet Hurricanes were being regunned by this stage but not all. Z5252 was still equipped with its standard armament when it was lost on the 2nd June 1942.

I am assuming therefore this Hurricane was one delivered in one of the first PQ convoys at the end of 1941, early 1942. I would hazard a guess it was lost April/May 1942 and this would be something Rune could check to see if anything tallies up. (when he returns from his warm holiday).

I wonder if it is still there at the bottom on the lake when the ice thawed in June?

regards

Mark

PS It could be Z2640 or BD740 which seem to have been shipped to Russia late in 1941.

Re: Very early VVS Hurricane loss (E-Bay photos)
 

Hi Mark

The "Trops" modification were removed by Soviet mechanics soon after despach of 151. Wing from Russia. The plane could be shot down in the first half of 1942, so then it would be the 2. GSAP VVS SF (en ex-78. IAP and ex-72. SAP VVS SF). Between April-June 1942 the 2. GSAP VVS SF had sustained severe losses faiting versus Me 109 F of 6./JG 5, many HCs were lost then.
Armament modification were introduces in HCs a little bit later, but in 1942, in the second part.

regards,
mw

Re: Very early VVS Hurricane loss (E-Bay photos)
 

It's BH140, we have a few photos of this aircraft in our ww2images.com library. I've tried to add a link or upload the photo but with no success. Just google Hurricane BH140 and you should find our photos.

Re: Very early VVS Hurricane loss (E-Bay photos)
 

Hello!

Thanks a million Debowa! Perhaps this leads to additional information, at least we can hope so. I have absolutely no data for BH140.

Cheers,
Kari

Re: Very early VVS Hurricane loss (E-Bay photos)
 

Hi Kari

Your TOCH folder is full and your allto.fi email is old. Bounced back.

Can you email me please. Email is the same as always.

More info.

regards

Mark

Re: Very early VVS Hurricane loss (E-Bay photos)
 

Hi Mark

When was BH140 lost? And pilot identity/fate?

Cheers
Brian

Re: Very early VVS Hurricane loss (E-Bay photos)
 

This thread is located at:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...8&goto=newpost
Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************
Hi all
Speaking to Rune, though it might be BP140 lost near Loukhi 16.05.42. Now I dont know how BH or BP translated from latin to cyrillic and I have no idea if BP140 went to Russia or was a IIB. A lot of the Gloster batch were IIC's and IID's.
It is possible this is 'BP140' from the records or just one lost in the first uear of the GPW where the records are poor. Similar to RAF ones in mid 1940.
Will have to get the cards from these two to have a look.
What I would lik to do if find the German unit and locate the lake. I am not sure how close German troops got to Loukhi if that is a possibility.
regards
Mark
***************
Mark
I got this e-mail to my home address and can't understand why it does not show up as it should here. Anyone?
Anyway BH140 was delivered to Russia 14.1.1942
As far as I know, Russia kept the RAF serial numbers during the aircraft's life, and they were never translated into cyrillic, at least not physically on the aircraft. Well, at least I have never seen any such marking.
BP140 was lost at sea while on delivery to the Far East (no date given) so I don't understand how that one can appear as lost by the Russians.
Serial data from Air Britain's monograph.
Cheers
Stig

Re: Very early VVS Hurricane loss (E-Bay photos)
 

Hi Stig,

No idea why you got the message. Thought it was a PM to Kari.

Yes BP140 is BH140. The Russian had issues in the records (not on the airframe) with some of the latin letters so often only the number is recorded. Not in this case as B, P and H are in the cyrillic alphabet. The P was not clear on the record.

We know it was not BP140 lost in transit and BH140 arrived around the right time to Russia. Yep, lost around 16th May 1942 in Louhki area as suspected due to the scenery. Pilot MIA. Would have probsbly survived. Still a hard landing though.

It would have gone through the ice less than two weeks later.

regards

Mark

Re: Very early VVS Hurricane loss (E-Bay photos)
 

Really weird Mark :)

Anyway, seems like we pretty well nailed down this specimen.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Very early VVS Hurricane loss (E-Bay photos)
 

Stig,

Now need to find the lake! :)

regards

Mark

Re: Very early VVS Hurricane loss (E-Bay photos)
 

Well Mark

If you come over I can lend you a pair of skiis....;)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Very early VVS Hurricane loss (E-Bay photos)
 

Hi
this HC could be maybe one of 10 lost on 10.05.1942 from 2. GSAP VVS SF or 78. IAP VVS SF - they fight together but used two separate airfield (Vaenga-1 and -2). This day Soviet sustained most severe losses in the air (from 10 lost planes 5 pilots were KIA).

To the end of May 42 there were next air battles and both HS's units sustained next losses.

mw

Re: Very early VVS Hurricane loss (E-Bay photos)
 

Mirek,

BH140 was shot down at 09.50 on the 16th May 1942 in the air battles of Kiestinki. It belonged to 760 IAP.

As Loukhi/Kiestinki was on the 65 / 66th parallel North (latitude) and the photos were taken 16-30th May 1942, does the available shadow help with location or orietation of the lake?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ww2ima...n/photostream/

Trying to work out sunrise/sunset and angle of the sun in the photo. For last two weeks of May the sun goes between-3 degrees? I assume the variation is the angle of the earth as there is 18 hours of daylight.

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/grad/solcalc/azel.html

I think the Hurricane is facing due south but working out angle of the sun etc is beyond me!

regards

MS

Re: Very early VVS Hurricane loss (E-Bay photos)
 

Do you know the pilot's name?

JOhn

Re: Very early VVS Hurricane loss (E-Bay photos)
 

Mark great thanks, and you are great , :-)

mw

Re: Very early VVS Hurricane loss (E-Bay photos)
 

John

Pilot P/O Muravev listed as MIA

Second opinion. Is that a mountain in the background - left of the windscreen? Beyond the shoreline in the distant background.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ww2ima...n/photostream/

regards

Mark

Re: Very early VVS Hurricane loss (E-Bay photos)
 

Hi Mirek


You state that 10 Hurricanes were lost on 10 May 1942, with 5 pilots killed. Who were these 10 pilots?

Cheers
Brian