Ju 88 A-4 "factoids"
 

Hi all,

The Aeroplane Jan 2015 has article on KG 51 in "Operation Barbarossa" (P.62). On the cover says "Target: Russia" (sic) but when "Operation Barbarossa" was launched, it was against Soviet Forces (i.e. the then Soviet Union, Air and Ground Forces) and targets for that day really were in other (former and present) countries than "Russia".. ah well.

If I recall correctly Soviet Forces had taken half of East Poland (September 1939), and this needed be driven out first, and the invasion was also first into the Ukraine, not Russia. Attacks in "Russia" proper coming later.
(Does this reflect that the writers or the magazine editors do not know THAT History all that well?)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Barbarossa.PNG

Furthermore, pictures in article show Ju 88 "R5501" which was a A-4 version (and stated at field in the Ukraine).

BUT NOT ONE KG 51 Ju 88 A-4 did particpate on 22.06.1941.

KG 51 had none by that time. There is also error (in the article) saying KG 51´s "... and its Ju 88A-4s were beeing upgraded for further action ..." just prior to Barbarossa. These were all Ju 88 A-5 version (as the W.Nr´s of lost planes lost that day indicate!) as is bottom photo of page 64.

Best regards & Happy New Year
Ed

Re: Ju 88 A-4 "factoids"
 

Well, few days ago I was discussing with Ken Merrick about tv documentaries that shows every kind of wrong planes, armour, everything out of contest. As I said to him, we are among the few ones that can notice those fails...

Dramatic presentation, fast editing plus a heavy metal soundtrack does the trick so who cares about that at last? :rolleyes:

Re: Ju 88 A-4 "factoids"
 

At first I wish all the users a Happy New Year!

Hi Ed

Thank you for your opinion and correction.


The History of Eastern Europe is not so easy as you see them. The Soviet Union won back the territory, which it lost in the war against Poland in 1920-21. This area was reannexed 1939 by the Soviet Union. During this time, the Soviet Union was also called Russia or Soviet Russia. Therefore you can call “Barbarossa “ as a war against Russia.
There are many individual opinions about this war, so you can´t say the writer or the magazine editors have no knowledge of history.
It is right that III./ KG51 had no Ju 88 A-4 in June 1941. I have not seen this error in the correction, sorry. The III.Gruppe received the first Ju 88 A-4 during the refreshing/reorganisation at Vienna in August 1941. It is also correct that the cover picture show a Ju88 A-4 from 7./KG51. This picture was taken in September 1941 at the airfield Balti, but Balti was not and is not in Ukraine!
The picture on page 66 was also taken at Balti airfield and show A-4´s.
In the appendix the original page from Poppenburg´s album with original signature.The Ju-88 are all new A-4 (WNr.5501 and WNr.5508). These serial numbers are not included in my losslist´s of KG51.The other picture show Poppenburgs 9K+GR at Lezany after the ferry flight from Wiener-Neustadt on 18.6.1941. It´s a Ju88 A-5.



Regards, Rene

Re: Ju 88 A-4 "factoids"
 

To more complete the Eastern European history: In the war 1920-21 Poland won back the territory that was annexed in 1772, 1793 and 1795 by czaristic Russia.

Re: Ju 88 A-4 "factoids"
 

How far back are we going to go before finding who owned the territory annexed by the fore-runners of Poland?

Re: Ju 88 A-4 "factoids"
 

hi,
i think these numbers could be reparatur-numbers. they doesn't refer to an wnr.
all the best
jim

Re: Ju 88 A-4 "factoids"
 

For what it's worth -

Ju 88A-4, 5508, ./., , I., 3., KG 51, , , , , 09-Oct-41, Bombenwurf., , Lfl.4/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #4)-Vol.6, Medcalf, Fl.Pl. Nikolajew, 50%, F, , , Heinkel Flzg.Werke Oranienburg in Mar-41

Re: Ju 88 A-4 "factoids"
 

You will not find many references to "Sowjetunion" or "die Sowjets" in contemporary German accounts... for them the enemy in the East was "Russland" or "der Russe", the campaign was called "Russlandfeldzug" and even the book about Operation Barbarossa written by Paul Carell in the 1960s got the subtitle "Der Marsch nach Russland".

Well, a country occupied or annexed by another country belongs to the territory of the latter. Or do you want to tell me that Operation Overlord was actually an attack on France and not on Germany?

Re: Ju 88 A-4 "factoids"
 

You will not find many references to "Sowjetunion" or "die Sowjets" in contemporary German accounts... for them the enemy in the East was "Russland" or "der Russe"

But they also talked about being at war with "England" or "die Engländer" and that wasn't correct either, they were at war with the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (not to mention the British Empire, as was).

To be fair, quite a lot of British people then (and some now) would say "England" when they meant the UK as well.

Re: Ju 88 A-4 "factoids"
 

From my research i think these these just stood for Rumpf (fuselage) and several photos of R.55xx series are known. At this time the (088)5501 was built, April 1941, the Ju 88 A-5 was still in full production. Generally further A-4 production was done after A-5´s had been complete (but initally it was overlapping).

Also, never ever, have I seen (or found out) an R number standing for Reparatur. Many pics of repaired Ju 88 (and other types) planes are known, both in or after repair. And they carried just plain W.Nr. !

Ed

Re: Ju 88 A-4 "factoids"
 

Worth very little. Sorry. Another sloppy Medcalf error, as Heinkel did the (088)6xxx series. What I have seen of his first Junkers Ju 88 book, its filled will errors like these (due to faulty and/or improper research, in my opinion). Some comments on that book can be read elsewhere here at TOCH! (see Book revues).

Factory ATG produced this example, (088)5508 and flew it in (about) middle of June 1941. Rolf Baltabol, one of the ATG company test pilots flew it away to Grossenhain in July 1941. Likely one of them planes re-equipping KG 51 in August.

Best regards
Ed

Re: Ju 88 A-4 "factoids"
 

Adding ...
(088)5501 Ju 88 A-4 [GA+RA] Luftwaffe
Known Einflug at ATG Leipzig/Mockau 25.04.41 - F.T.Flug 30.04.41, again F.T. 04.05.41 - F.T. u. Motornachflug 09.05.41 - Justierflug 12.05.41 - Nennleistungsflug 12.05.41 - Stück-prüfungsflug 13.05.41 - Nachflug 26.05.41 - Known Überführung from ATG Leipzig/Mockau to Grossenhain 19.06.41
[F Rolf Baltabol; as Ju 88 GA+RA 5501 in log]

- Ju 88 A-4 IV/KG 54 (Lw.Befh.Mitte)
Non-OPS (H) pilot error on landing (30%) at Wiener-Neustadt Airfield 29.10.1943

- Ju 88´ JFM-FRB (Luftwaffe)
Fuselage reported Levallois (repair/storage) for JFM-FRB Villacoublay 03.05.1944 [reported as “5501” in FRV doc]

It last was with IV/KG 54, but last I know of it was in France (possibly not yet finished in repair) ... just before Allied Forces invaded France, to liberate it from German occopation, then the Allied continuing onto Germany. ;-)
But the French also (willingly) invited Germans later, via Coal and Steel Union ... not?

Rainer (#1) Correct, many were reassigned without known accidents, 5501 appears one of them, but as I have Ju 88´s combined in continued list its handy check each one or any words by simple word search. But there are certain gaps and also errors in the loss lists (both proven and suspected).

Ed

Re: Ju 88 A-4 "factoids"
 

correction: "Nennleistungsflug"

Re: Ju 88 A-4 "factoids"
 

Corrected in other files as well. Thank you.