New photo of a well known Fw 190 D9
 

Bonjour à tous,

A new photo of a well known Fw 190 D9

http://www.ebay.de/itm/FOTO-FLUGZEUG...item58bbc30a72

Regards.
Rémi

Re: New photo of a well known Fw 190 D9
 

Fw 190 D-9 <II+ Stab. JG2 WNr unknown Rhein Main 1945 see Crandall - 'The Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Dora' - Vol. 1 p.192-199

Re: New photo of a well known Fw 190 D9
 

Here http://www.mission4today.com/index.p...printertopic=1 is a link to the discussion on the above Fw190D-9, with some excerpts from the various books. According to those, the aircraft actually belonged to Stab/JG 4.

Regards,
Sinisa

Re: New photo of a well known Fw 190 D9
 

Was studying further...

@ Steve,
I think you are mixing up 2 airplanes: both are <II+ and the one you refer to is not WNr. 210194 but Fw 190 D-9 <II+ Stab. JG2 WNr unknown Rhein Main 1945 see Crandall - 'The Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Dora' - Vol. 1 p.192-199. The picture above is from a later period, I think, as the headrest and the turbo intake are missing, opposed to some pictures of Crandall's series.
In Larger & Deboeck 'Focke-Wulf Fw 190D Camouflage & Markings - Part II' p. 334-338 the same aircraft is discussed.

The other one is also shown in Crandalls book, p.78-79 and is referred as Fw 190 D-9 <II+ Stabsschwarm I./JG 2 - 1 January 1945 in Dorf, Germany, and in Fw. Werner Hohenberg or in Larger & Deboeck book p.113-115.

Pictures of this aircraft are too small to distinguish better the engine cowlings and the area arround the exhaust where an Adlerflügel should be drawn.

@ Sinisa: I definitely opt for JG2 on both options...

Re: New photo of a well known Fw 190 D9
 

Post No.5: Steve, if it is of any consolation, the excerpts from the literature provided are just different opinion on the matter.

Post No.6: Phillipe, JG 2 was the so-called "Frontgeschwader", and it is not necessarily proven that it actually applied the Reichsverteidigung (RV) band on its aircraft, although it did have one allocated to it. Thus, what you see as the yellow-white-yellow RV band of JG 2, I see as the faded black-white-black RV band of JG 4.

Regards,
Sinisa

Re: New photo of a well known Fw 190 D9
 

Post 7: @Sinisa: Sinisa, do you have the books I mentionned in my earlier post (#6)? They are full of airplanes with yellow white yellow - JG2 RV bands - including those two. Even an extract from the I./JG 2 operations' record prove the operational use of the band on JG 2. see annex.
(written specification: '<||+ |g|w|g|' or Gelbe Weiss Gelbe of Yellow White Yellow)
Source Japo Vol. 1 p 114

Re: New photo of a well known Fw 190 D9
 

Post No.8: Phillipe, no, I cannot say that I have those books at hand, so I cannot comment on them. Perhaps some other TOCH members can make their observations on the subject?

As for the handwritten observation '<||+ |G|W|G|', that I would not take as the definitive proof of the RV band usage with JG 2. Some over-zealous researcher might have added the note in the post-WW2 period, matching the entries with their own understanding of the subject. Note the confirmation marks at every entry.

Just my opinion. Since I have nothing further to add, I disengage from further discussion on the subject at this point.

Regards,
Sinisa

Re: New photo of a well known Fw 190 D9
 

The idea of Reichsverteidigung bands originated (I believe) in a series of 1960s books by Karl Ries and was his interpretation of the photo evidence he had. My own research leads me to think that the late-war bands were allocated as part of the planning for the »Große Schlag« operation envisaged for November 1944. Their purpose is described as "better recognition in the air" (e.g. for assembling or reassembling a large formation of fighters).

It's worth noting that JG 5 aircraft in Norway carried recognition bands, despite not defending the Reich. The use of JG's yellow/white/yellow bands is confirmed by Allied reports on crashed and captured aircraft; also the other Western Front units, JG 26, 27 and 53 carried bands.

Re: New photo of a well known Fw 190 D9
 

Post No.10: Nick, thank you for the clarification/confirmation on the usage of the JG 2 RV (or the late-war identification bands). The usage of these identification bands with JG 26, JG 27 and JG 53 is I believe well documented. I was not sure about JG 2 though.

Regards,
Sinisa

Re: New photo of a well known Fw 190 D9
 

I think JG2 was one of the units which applied the RVB bands most consistently, not only to Fw190D-9 but also to FW190A-8 (see Roger Gaemperle's "Vintage Eagle") and of course to their II. Gruppe's Bf 109 as well!

Best

Michael

Re: New photo of a well known Fw 190 D9
 

I would say that there are a lot of Fw190D-9s of JG 2 with the bands, see for example Jerry Crandalls books and JaPo books about the D-9, but only one plane known from JG 4, Fw 190D-9, W.Nr. 600150, black <1 - + -.

Re: New photo of a well known Fw 190 D9
 

Steve,

I can't say that I have seen a good enough photo of black <II + 210194 to see that, and I'm not sure I can get one either, but if someone have that photo in hi resolution I would be interested to see if I can see what you mean!

Re: New photo of a well known Fw 190 D9
 

On this new photo of the black <II +, W.Nr. 600???, I can see something that is probably some kind of graffiti on the engine cover.
As this plane was lying at Frankfurt a/f until 1946-1947 a lot of military guys must have visited it.

Re: New photo of a well known Fw 190 D9
 

There's always the "edit" button!

Re: New photo of a well known Fw 190 D9
 

Regarding post #8. The copy of the NVM of Fw. Hohenberg is not the way how it is archived in Berlin (DD). I have a direct copy of the original and the NVM does not give any information on markings <II or RVT-Band. So these have been added by someone on a copy and that copy has been used in the Japo book. By the way, I have never seen NVM with details on RVT bands applied yes or no. Of course the famous picture of 210194 shows the marking to be <II and the yellow-white-yellow band clearly. I am only aware of one picture of this aircraft in bellylanded condition and on my copy I vaguely see some markings on the port side engine cowling. If this is damage, graffiti or an actual emblem I can not see. Of course the Gen.QU.Mstr. report on this a/c gives the marking as Winkel.

I believe there is enough evidence that JG 1 (red), JG 2 (yellow-white yellow), JG 3 (white), JG 4 (black-white-black), JG 6 (red-white-red), JG 11 (yellow), JG 26 (black-white), JG 27 (green), JG 53 (black), IV./JG 54 (blue), JG 77 (white-green) used their bands. This is based on Allied reports on crashed a/c or on photographic evidence. I stil feel there must be a link to Luftflotte Reich for the RVT bands, I do not believe this was a generic order for every front.

Regards,

John

Re: New photo of a well known Fw 190 D9
 

And yet, as I reproduce on my website, information about the bands was passed to To Sea Defence Commander Hammerfest in the far north of Norway and to the the Waffen-SS in Hungary. That at least suggests that aircraft might be redeployed to any front without removal of the bands.

Re: New photo of a well known Fw 190 D9
 

John, Dont forget Red/Yellow of JG301

Source:
http://www.aviaticus.com/epages/6154...s/F_013_Fw190A

Re: New photo of a well known Fw 190 D9
 

In Broken Eagles 1 there are 3 photos of a D-9 very similar to the OP's except it has the rear canopy structure in place. Is this the same a/c?

Re: New photo of a well known Fw 190 D9
 

To the previous post, yes, in my belief that is the same a/c.

Re: New photo of a well known Fw 190 D9
 

The 'markings' on the port engine cowling is damage.

Re: New photo of a well known Fw 190 D9
 

Slightly off topic, but still to do with units that are believed to have used their assigned tail bands.
I wonder if there has been any further thought by the Luftwaffe experts on the forum if the Bf-109 G10s found at Fels am Wagram were indeed from Jg-51 and wore the never seen before green white green tail bands?

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...=27108&page=56

cheers

Gareth