1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Who has any information on the crash of a Ju52 near Toplet, Romania, date 10.5.1944?
My uncle Korvettenkapitän Helmut Rosenbaum with other members of his staff from Uboot-Flotille 30, Black Sea, were passengers and crashed. He was buried in nearby Orsova, where he still rests today. The headstones all bear the day of death 10.5.44. It is said that the Ju 52 was shot down by an allied fighter.

There is a conflicting Ju52 crash, dated 16.4.44, same Toplet, also Ju52 with members of JG54 killed. They too are buried in Orsova, same row as my uncle.

Does not make any sense to me......

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Ju 52 PH+OI Werknr. 3225

The crew had flown into a fog-shrouded mountain 9km northwest of Polet, Romania.

The Info is from U-Boot in Focus Edition No.2

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Thanks Gerd for your information. Forum member Matti has sent me an email with information: Ju 52/3mg8e, WNr. 501326

Are these contradicting Werknumbers or could this be the very same Ju52?

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Polet should be actually "Toplet"?

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Egbert ,first of I think you are very fortunate to have had such uncle in your family and would like very much to work on this thread with you. During his life time my old friend Ruddy Klemm ( ex Major und Staffelkapitaen JG54) who used to run his own Flugschule at my location's Airport discussed with me about both accidents . On May 1944 he was for a short while visiting Romania and had recollections. I tend to agree with you that the other JU-52 hit high obstructions in bad weather . Your uncle was a prominent Submariner and therefore I don't exclude the possibility that the Allied Air Forces knew about his planned arrival to Constanza especially that Soviets Iasi - Chisinau offensive and Allied Romania bombings from Italy just began - What I don't know is what was his point of departure,why the JU-52 pilots let down North of Turnul Severin so far off course from Constanza approaches to hit high obstruction at Topletz (Orsova) and where the crash investigation reports of the Romanians can be located .The 1st photo seems to have been taken at Constanza . For the rest of us maybe you can post his grave stone photos and any other photos you are willing to post , mainly and foremost for the general benefit of the readers.

To my knowledge he was supposed to act at Kriegsmarine Hdq in Constanza or take command returning to his U9 which later on ,on Aug 20,44 during the second Iasi-Chisinau offensive was sunken by a Soviet VMF Torpedo Bomber on Canstanza's harbour. On May 5,1944 Turnul Severin was attacked by 483rd Bomb Group from Sterparone / Italy and other BG assets attacked Ploesti . 3 US Fighter Groups were dispatched from Italy protecting the bombers and I'll check for you any downing reports on that day .

The weather aloft may have been CAVOK ,therefore I suspect the JU-52 pilots let down to avoid contact with US fighters and the bomber assets moving towards and from Turnul Severin then either shot down or encountered IMC weather or marginal while letting down before crashing .

Do you by chance know the time of the crash ?

Gruss /AK

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Ok. First of all thanks for the information so far.

I have also received valuable information from Matti per email:
"1944-05-10, Kurierstaffel/O.K.M., Ju 52/3mg8e, WNr. 501326, PO+GO, Höhe 1051, 9 km nordnordwestlich Toplet bei Orsova, Absturz. Bruch 100 %."
So Gerds posted Werknummer does not match Matti's Werknummer. but I think you both refer to the same plane, the one that crashed 10.5.44. The other Ju52 that crashed 16.4.44 at the same mountain n/w of Toplet is a coincidence as the passengers were from the air force, JG 54.

The crash indeed occurred 10.5.44. This is the official death date. I have copies from the burial and the wooden crosses. My aunt told me (when she still lived) that my uncle was a passenger with a bunch of other navy guys on the plane from Constanza on its way to Berlin for reports.
Helmut Rosenbaum then was commander Uboot-Flotille 30, Black Sea, stationed and headquartered in Constanza

Please let me know all available details on the death of my uncle.

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Also some further information on the Orsova cemetery situation and my uncle here:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/fo...opic=10434&hl=

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Helmut Rosenbaum 1944 grave and burial pictures fom cemetery in Orsova

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

As the crash site supposed to be some 9km n/w of Toplet and at alt 1052m , I come to the conclusion that the 10.5.1944 crash occurred within this red circle, as this is the only mountain/ridge that measures appr. 1052m.

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Egbert

Thank you for feedback I will reply also through Pvt mail. No in fact I reffered to the JU 52 of your uncle which crashed on May 10th,44. Since they
departed from Constanza I need to tell you that since March 44 the whole area meaning Constanza, Tulcea, Mamaia and Mahmudia were constantly
subject to Soviet VMF recon and torpedo / bombing flights which brings me to the conclussion that the departure of
your uncle was either monitored by the Soviets or the JU-52 pilots used a safe passage route which would allow them avoid contact
with Soviet and Allied fighters.

Flying at low altitude and probably lacking radar controlled guidance they have
entered IMC weather and hit high ground . Its one of the numerous accidents of this type
on Romanian soil by the Luftwaffe transport pilots flying the JU-52's. To my best knowledge
most of the pilots were NCO's rather officers such as Feldwebels and Oberfeldwebels mosty
newly trained lacking sufficient instrument flying time.

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Probably if place, in desolated area, some parts remain ...I mean from the Ju !

Rémi

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Probably you mean 10.5.44 as this was the date of death for all the buried passengers.

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

That's what I would think as well. My friend who visited the Orsova graves last November though told me nobody there speaks English or French......it is rural Romania.....

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Ja bestimmt 10 Mai meinte ich, erbitte um entschuldigung. Werde den Email folge leisten. Schoenes Wochenend. Its pitty that no color
shots of the grave was taken. Is there any reason on why the grave was not reinterred in Germany ?

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Alex, I do have a whole bunch of modern day color pictures from the cemetery, taken November 2014. Unfortunately due to the withered state of my uncle's headstone (but also the headstones of all the other 77 German interred) could not be found/identified. Please see also my link to another forum (the link works fine by now) and read about the cemetery and German war graves situation in Orsova. The situation applies to the buried of both Ju52 crash near Toplet, that of 16.4.44 and that of my uncle 10.5.44.

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Egbert viewing the posted photos require membership . Despite the issue with the graves would appreciate those shots through email.

Also
====
Spanish Bronze Cross June 6,1939 ( any details ? )

By sinking the British Aircraft Carrier " Eagle " on Aug 11,1942 was awarded the Knight to Iron Cross
Kapt.Lt. Rosenbaum CO U-73 sank the British aircraft carrier "EAGLE" from amongst a heavily secured convoy
with four torpedo hits on 11 August in the western Mediterranean. Do you have more details ?

April 4,1941 Kapt.Lt. Rosenbaum and Lt.zur See Endrass particularly distinguished themselves in success against
British Merchant Navy

On Sept 17,1944 was posth.awrded the Argentinian military valour order in silver ( details ? )


Thanks in advance

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Here what I was able to translate from Ruddy Klemm notes, pse note that there were 7 survivors rather than one . Also the route of the JU-52 was rather unusual ,flying
West from Mamaia to BUC ,then further West to Arad and rather continue NNW to destination it headed SE which make me conclude was tasked to first fly to Bulgaria to
drop or collect post or Naval personnel at Varna ( Kriegsmarine Base ) then from there continue to its planned destination .

On May 1944, Rosenbaum was the head of the 30 U- Flotilla for over a year and a half . A month earlier, he tried to organize a flight back home to celebrate his 31st birthday on 11 May.

On the evening of May 9 ,1944 Rosenbaum learns he can board a Ju 52 connecting from Mamaia to Berlin the next day. Despite the mext day schedule he still had the time to organize a small birthday
party with his men. On May 10, as planned he boarded the Ju 52 (PH + OI Werk Nr . 3225 ) which was attached to the postal & transport squadron of the Kriegsmarine.

In total, 15 people boarded the aircraft plus the two pilots of JU-52 bound for Germany. The aircraft took off from Mamaia Suitighol airfield aprox 5:30 am . The weather conditions were CAVOK .
After a refueling stop at Pipera and new briefing , the Ju 52 headed to Arad Delta Airfield for next stop . Here was refueled again and then took off again aprox at 11:00 am.

Most passengers red or slept when tree limbs suddenly scratched the corrugated fuselage of the aircraft . The noise woke up Oblt.z.S . Mertineit who was seated just near Rosenbaum .
Before he could really determine what was going on , the plane hit the ground and exploded . Appearently the Ju 52 penetrated fog and hit the top of a mountain 9 km northwest of
Poletz north of Turnul Severin.

At the impact Olt.z.S. Mertineit was blown clear of the aircraft , wounded but survived along with other six other passengers. Seated on the left, just behind the cockpit was Korvt.Kapt.Helmut
Rosenbaum who was not among the survivors.

Having survived so many dangers at sea, he just died in the wreckage of that plane. A total of 10 soldiers perished in the crash , including the two crew members . When the fog dissipated
it was determined that aircraft missed just by 20 meters the safe altitude in order to clear the mountain’s peak . Two days later , the six sailors killed in that accident were buried in the military
cemetery of Orsova , about 38 km from the crash site . This where Helmut Rosenbaum is burried , far from the sea
which had such influenence on his life.

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Alright- thanks again for the next batch of information from Alex. It all sheds more light on the final day in the life of H.Rosenbaum.

I have the big dilemma now to have 2 conflicting information about the crash site and the plane identifyer:

1a. from Matti, whose primary source is the WAST: (Wehrmachtauskunftsstelle) the plane crash occurred at 9 km nn/w of Toplet (German: Töplitz) at an altitude of 1052m. Indeed there is a one mountain that reaches up to 1070ish meters.
Also the WAST says the identification of the JU52 involved is WerkNr. 501326, PO + GO
Flugzeugführer Ofw Brunnhuber, Georg, +
Bordfunker Ofw Kunkel, Josef, +
Bordwart Uffz Striebing, Willi, verletzt
Uffz Striebing am 1944-05-20 seinen Verletzungen erlegen.


1b. from Alex: it is correct that your primary source is Rudy Klemm?=
the plane crash was 9km n/w of Poletz. Poletz village/town I cannot find unfortunately, maybe it is Toplet?
The identification of the JU52 is different and conveyed as Werk Nr. 3225,PH + OI
Is anybody able to shed light on the differing Werknummern and identification letters?

P.S. I have no whatsoever info on the Spanish and Argentinian decorations. All of my uncles naval documentation I suppose to be archived with the UBoot-Archiv in Cuxhaven?

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

A possible flight route discrepancy :

I have depicted below the suggested flight path. From the last fueling stop in Arad the general flight path to Berlin should be direction North and here we see a Southern flight path from Arad towards Toplet/Orsova. Could it be that they actually did not reach Arad but were on their way from Bucharest-Pipera towards Arad and before landing in Arad crashed near Toplet?

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Egebert

Your hypothesis sounds reasonable to me and thanks for making the sketch , though according some publications I have at my end ,one of which is called " Rettung Zwischen Den Fronten " the courier flights of the Kriegsmarine had to shuttle between Naval bases in Romania and Bulgaria even Greece before getting to Berlin to collect / drop personnel & post . According Klemm's notes the flight refuelled at Arad Delta after a stopover at Pipera ( Baneasa) then was headed for Varna Bulgaria . What does not make sense to me is why they didn't fly directly from Pipera to Varna which possibly lays the key question, other than intending to collect/drop Luftwaffe personnel from Arad and then to Varna.

PS : On May 10,1944 the 15th AF out of Italy was conducting high alt.recon flights over Romania , no bombings or intrussions of Allied fighter or bomber aircrafts . The 2nd Ukrainian Front was conducting air to ground ops in Moldavia , I therefore exclude contact with the enemy on the crash perimeter area or SE of Bucharest.

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Could anybody comment please on the different Werknr and identification markings as listed in post #18 please?

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Is spelled in Romanian language Topleț ( Topletz) the other location may be an error (Polet ) as into the JU-52 Werk Nummer , I can't help further is not my area of research and only reffering what Klemm left .

I have a question though , Flugzeugführer Ofw Brunnhuber, Georg, + was the pilot , who was then the co pilot or was the flight not manned by a co pilot ? who was the Navigator for such a long route
(Flugbeobachter ) and how did you come up with 23 pax , 2 pilots and a P-38 bringing down the JU-52 ? 15th Air Force ( 5 PRG) performed high alt.recon flights with F-5's on that day, as such no
enemy fighters involved .

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Normally military Ju 52/3m was flown with a crew of four: Pilot, Observer, Radio Operator and Flight Mechanic.

Matti

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Alex, 16.4.44 crash due to fighter engagement, the other
10.5.44 crash due to weather impact

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Matti I am aware of at least 3 cases when a co pilot was on board , though is JU-52's is not my area , then a Q remains open was there an observer on that flight ?

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Here is my interpretation and speculation based on Matti's and Alex' inputs.

1. The Ju52 with identifier PH + OI, Werk Nr . 3225 , left Mamaia (Konstanza), stopped in Pipera (Bucharest)=fact.

Next Matti's and my speculations:
2. Next -why a new briefing in Pipera after flying a mere 200km only, or, stop for refueling?
Instead they changed planes to another Ju52 with identifier PO+GO, WerkNr. 501326, SKZ , sent from OKM to pick them up for the immediate flight towards Berlin, via Arad (which was never reached). Maybe the statement from R.Klemm, that they fueled in Arad, is a mix-up of the eye witness account ?
KK Rosenbaum was a VIP called to Berlin. A Flotillenchef does not fly around in circles, burning valuable time and certainly did not fly 1000km from Mamaia (Konstanza) to Arad and back from Arad 1000km to Varna and than proceed towards Berlin. This is not plausible at all.

3. From Pipera the new JU52 was WNr. 501326, SKZ PO+GO. Flight path from Pipera across the wide plains and starting the West Carpathian mountain range crossing northbound by turning into the valley north, from Orsova to Arid . Just behind Orsova in thick fog the pilot was disoriented and accidentally deviated from the flight path left into the mountain region and crashed 9km n/w of Toplet.

Please see speculated flight path in attached file

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Egbert

I can't answer speculative questions nor there is any point in going into such , however briefing
on short distances was nothing out of the ordinary , remember the Russians started the Iasi Chisinau
offensive and the Allied the Ploesti and Romania bombings. I have no additional info to help with.

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Just an afterburner to the 16.4.44 crash in the same Toplet/Töplitz area:
The 16th saw a hell of allied action due to escort fighters and bombers roaming the skies in the campaign against the oil fields, Luftwaffe airfields and Belgrade.
I quote from another thread here on this forum:
...... it should be noted that the loss of a Ju 52 on 16 April 1944, so as shown in the OBSO report for the day, was not linked to the Allied attacks around Belgrade. Involved was in fact Ju 52/3m g8e W.Nr. 501325 of 9./TG 4, which was downed by Allied escort fighters at Toplitz, some 9 km to the West of Orsava in the Banat region of Romania. 16 men aboard were reportedly killed. Another 16 men came to death on 17 April 1944 when the Ju 52/3m g8e W.Nr. 501132 1Z+JX of 11./TG 4 was hit by Allied escort fighters and ditched on the Danube river in an attempted emergency landing some 32 km South of Orsava." end of quote.

Also the eyewitness account from the crash on the 16th (as posted in „Deutsche Vortragsreihe Reschitza“ XIV Auflage, 23. Juni 2007
7 Juli 2007 XVIII. Jahrgang – Nr. 7 (211) – 2007, Seite 53 – 54") says:

quote: "......wieder Fliegeralarm in Orschowa. Auf einer Wiese, auf dem Rücken liegend, pobierten wir, mein Freund Luki und ich, die vielen silbernen Bomber „B 24“ zu zählen. Es waren auch mehrere doppelrumpfige Jagdflugzeuge. Da wurde vor uns auch ein tieffliegendes deutsches Rotes-Kreuz-Flugzeug (JU 52) aus Richtung Turnu Severin kommend gesichtet. Leider aber auch von den Jägern. Man hörte die Bordkanonen krachen, das Rote-Kreuz-Flugzeug wurde getroffen und stürzte bei Topletz, ca. 12 km von Orschowa entfernt ab. Ich konnte mit einem deutschen Militär-LKW, einem Opel Blitz, zur Unglücksstelle mitfahren. Die war noch rauchbedeckt. Flammen züngelten noch hie und da. Weitverstreut Flugzeugtrümmer, Leichen. Zerstückelte Leichen. Ein grauenvoller Anblick. Und da sah ich ihn. Den Bauernbuben, der von einer zermalmten Leiche die scheinbar noch brauchbaren Stiefel herunterzuzerren versuchte. Ich ergriff ein krummes Rohrstück, das ich gerade finden konnte und lief schreiend hin. Der Junge machte halt, schaute mich verängstigt an, machte kehrt und lief weg. Ich lies ihn laufen......" end of quote.

But - - - this thread shall stay with the crash, dated 10 May 1944 in the same area n/w of Toplet, near Orsova.

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Egbert

Categorically not ! I repeat there were no Allied activities whatsoever over Romania before
April 4,1944 not even recon flights . If you reffer to Allied activities on March 16,1944
over Yugoslavia that is something I didn't debate nor was something I questioned because
we debate Orsova , Romania .

Regarding Soviet air activities of their AF and Naval Air Fleet near Orsova I rule out because
they were not at all in that area . Regarding the other events concerning Luftwaffe flights
I don't know coze it is not my research area.

So which oil fields of which country you talking about on March 16,44 ? if you meant April 16th
then yes on that date there were such , but the JU-52 crash at Orsova was on March 16,44
right ? So lets return back to your date March 16,44 when the JU-52 crashed at Orsova and
let me conclude like this dated May 10,44 as well due to weather rather enemy fighters .

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Alex, if you read the thread carefully you will clearly read that we /I are talking only of 16.4.44, 17.4.44 and 10.5.44. and indeed there were USAAF bombings going on like hell, to include the prominent B24 bombing raid with P38 fighter escort on nearby Turnu Severin airfield and marshalling yards.
Please do not refer to dates before 16 April 1944. There is another thread here on the forum plus 2 eyewitness reports that substantiate my claims!
Also who mentioned Soviet naval and air activities near Orsova-nobody did.
Please stay on topic.

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Researcher111 wrote in part:

Quote:

I repeat there were no Allied actions whatsoever over Romania before May 4,1944 not even recon flights.

15th AAF began attacking targets in Romania in April 1944:

4 Apr 44: 93 B-17s, 220 B-24s and 119 escort fighters to Bucharest marshalling yards.
5 Apr 44: 94 B-17s, 136 B-24s and 180 escort fighters to Ploesti marshalling yards.
15 Apr 44: 257 B-24s and 149 escort fighters to Bucharest; 137 B-17s to Ploesti.
16 Apr 44: 126 B-24s to Brasov marshalling yards; 151 B-24s to Turnu Severin; 224 escort fighters participated.
21 Apr 44: large force to Bucharest.
24 Apr 44: large force to Bucharest and Ploesti.
etc., etc., etc.

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Larry

There were two messages posted one which contained a typo , wrongly posted msg was deleted .If you would review the correct one , it states April 4,44,
did you check that as well before correcting mine ?

Egbert

I really don't get you ,here is what you posted on the other forum:

1944-04-16, 9./Transport Geschwader 4, Ju 52/3mg8e, WNr. 501325, Bei Toplitz, 9 km westlich Orsowa, am Eisernen Tor, Absturz nach Luftkampf. Bruch 100 %. Crew of 4 and 23 passengers were killed ( you also mentioned JG 54 pax's )

You state in German that JU-52 was shot down during air to air activity 9 Km West of Orsova on 16.4.44 , this is what I am reffering to . If the JU-52 was shot down on that date due air to air activities what are the evidences you are using ?

On 16.April 460 BG bombed Turnul Severin, FG's 31,325,14 provided escorts while 82nd FG failed the randezvous . You mentioned a P-38 involved , that would therefore leave only 14 FG . Sofar still looking for a claim from that group though there are none. I also checked 31st FG history book , no claims on that day.From 82nd FG who missed their randezvous only Rob Griffith claimed a HE-111 location unknown.

I am checking 325th FG history book FG and other records , sofar no claims of a JU-52 , therefore pse. cite your supporting evidences .

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Larry

Since you are interested on the 15th AF Romanian campaigns, in addition to your dates here is an addition , on April 5th 450th BG , 99th BG and 451st BG also bombed Oradea while some assets of 304th Wng aborted due WX ,hope that helps.

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Larry

Thank you but at this point in time I would appreciate supporting evidences as into all such statements , I brought mines and would greatly appreciate
facts such the sources of the claims . None of the history books and additional material I have point out to such details . As into 1st FG there was only
a SM-79 claimed and not on Orsova area and by Lt Gerry while as already mentioned the 82nd claimed a lone HE-111 and not a JU-52 nor at Orsova .
Despite confussions at Allied side in WWII S-79 could have not been confused with JU-52,however some of the Allied pilots confussing the IAR-80 / 81
with Italian fighters is understandable .

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Larry

Thanks for the update, I don't have this books and I will order it. However I have over 380 publications , private
publications and manuscripts related to 15th AF as well interviews conducted in the past .

Going through this huge stuff I could not find any reference to US fighters over Orsova . If at page 92 the author indicating
fighter claims over Orsova and are dated 4/16/44 and if this can be verified then it updates any of the publications I have
available because according to those and Charlie Pinson 82nd didn't reach as far as Orsova on that day and 1st FG were
involved near Brasov. I will update in due course .

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Re: 1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova
 

Whoa! I did not say "over Orsova". I said in the Orsova - Turnu Severin area, and that should be interpreted in the widest possible sense based on my reading of the author's words which, in turn, were based on his reading of the 15th AAF operations summary (opsum).

L.