Hurricane P2701
 

Pic of Allen's Hurricane P2701.

 Been a lot of discussion on her over the years on TOCH.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Beute-Fl...



Looks like a belly landing - seized engine.



If Allen is commemorated it must have been injured and died of wounds? Confused as to why he would have died as an unknown unless never his aircraft. So who's was it?

The canopy seems to have missing perspex - bullet damage?

Interesting pic though.



regards



Mark

Re: Hurricane P2701
 

Whether P2701 was ALLEN's aircraft or not remains wide open to question. Watch this space.

Re: Hurricane P2701
 

I agree the canopy has damage at head height, so he could have died of wounds, or shock like the photo of a Polish pilot I posted recently seen sitting on the tail of his Hurricane, who despite appearances died soon afterwards. As for being unknown surely if he was buried nearby by German soldiers, then someone should have known about it but then again it wouldn't be the first time a grave of a serviceman has been lost.

Re: Hurricane P2701
 

At the site of the canopy damage there are marks on the wooden fuselage framework behind it, implying the canopy was open when the damage was made and so well behind the pilot's head.

Re: Hurricane P2701
 

Still if he had the canopy open, he still could have had a head wound.

Re: Hurricane P2701
 

Hello,
The story of P2701 and F/O. D.H. Allen DFC can be seen in the following links -

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...ighlight=P2701
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...ighlight=P2701
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...ighlight=P2701

Further with relation to the serial numbers brought up.
P2701 - 11th May 40 - Pilot unknown, Brought down in Belgium, a/c ( & pilot ?) Returned.[ cannot now find ref for this info ;( ].
P2701 - 18th May 40 - S/D, Pilot, F/O. D.H. Allen DFC Killed.
Re F/O. Allen,
P2828 - 15th May 40 - Allen Baled safe, Belgium.

P2555 - 20th May 40 - Pilot Sgt. H. N. Howes safe, crash landed , a/c abandoned.
P3533 - CFF, left in France.

Alex

Re: Hurricane P2701
 

The photo with Germans looking over the a/c must be the second occasion the plane came down then.

Re: Hurricane P2701
 

It does not appear that P2701 wears the squadron code but the a/c letter could be "L", although in the lower part the fuselage fabric is torn. Can anyone confirm this?

Thanks,
Tom

Re: Hurricane P2701
 

The "facts" related to this aircraft in my view:
1. it is definitely the P2701, so no discussion about that
2. the crash that killed FlgOff Allen on May 18 was likely into a house, as described in Twelve Days in May by FltLt Gleed of No.87 Sqn. At least that could then not have been the P2701; which one it was is another discussion. P2555 as suggested by some sources (one of the previous 12OCH discussions)?
3. The location is given in the last auction as Choisy-en-Brie. Choisy-en-Brie is south of the Marne, east of Paris, a few km SW of La Ferté-Gaucher where the Armée de l'Air had a large bomber air base. In fact it is highly likely this refers to this air base, also because from the same seller a French MB210 bomber is sold with the same location Choisy-en-Brie. All this makes the location quite accurate: a RAF Hurricane that belly-landed on/near the French airfield La Ferté-Gaucher and was abandoned there.
4. The aircraft does not carry a squadron code. Although this might have occured in other units, No.73 Sqn was the one consistently not carrying its squadron code, at least before and until May 10, showing just the individual letter (which seems on the P2701 to be I, possibly L).

From these "facts" I would derive a few assumptions:
a. If the location is correct, this is unlikely to be a No.85 Sqn aircraft, or at least not one flown in the first week of the campaign. As far as I know this squadron has never operated this far south-east.
b. The absence of the squadron code makes it likely to be a (early) No.73 Sqn machine. This fits nicely with the crash location, because from May 18 this unit operated from Gaye-Sézanne, only some 30km to the east of Choisy/La Ferté.

Assuming this is a correct assumption, the final question would be the exact loss date. Here I'm stuck. It is tempting to link it to the No.73 loss of May 15 of Sgt Friend, which according Peter's TBoFTaN made an emergency landing at La Ferté. However, that was after a fight over Vouziers, some 150km to the NE and there are many Ferté's in France, so probably not this one. Also because the aircraft is said to have returned next day.

So more likely is a crash landing after May 18 until early June, when the squadron returned to the UK.Alternatively it could have been during a transfer flight. Any suggestions?

Cheers, Pieter

Re: Hurricane P2701
 

Let us stick to facts rather than speculate. P2701 was allocated to 19MU on 12.3.40 as part of a ‘reserve for fighter squadrons’ eventually being issued to No.85 Squadron on 13.5.40 & subsequently recorded by them as ‘SOC May 1940’. It was CULL (repeated by FRANKS) who originally documented it as ALLEN’s aircraft on 18 May 1940 while HALLEY records it as ‘shot down in Belgium 11 May 1940’. This latter is at odds with its documented movements & also contrary to the AIR81/341 file which lists it thus: ‘F/O D H Allen: missing presumed dead; Hurricane P2701 shot down over Gembloux, France, 15 May 1940’. Still much confusion to resolve here so as I have said, ‘Watch this space’.

Re: Hurricane P2701
 

Hello Larry & Peter,

Larry seems to be suggesting that ALLEN was wounded and later died as a result dates unknown ? ( damage to canopy suggests hit by ground fire[?] - perhaps whilst in landing mode[?] ).

Peter has provided detail from AIR81/341 that seems to link ALLEN to the los of P2701. But that loss was on the 15th May 1940.

From my earlier post re 15th May 1940, ALLEN baled from P2828 that date and returned to his unit. ? ( Right now I forget my ref for this but it probably was FCL or FC Diaries series ).

Larry, Is it not possible that ALLEN returned to his Sqdn on the 15th only to come down later that same day (15th) in P2701 - get wounded and later on the 18th Die from the wound(s) ?
This may account for the link between ALLEN and P2701 and the 15th in AIR81/341 ?

Peter, can you check this with regard to the loss of P2828 please ?

Thanks
Alex

Re: Hurricane P2701
 

Hi guys

Just because one is born a country lad with red hair, freckles and glasses does not automatically mean he should be lampooned!!

Yes, I did write P2701, but on the advise of my late, great friend Heinrich Weiss, whose work seems to be coming in for criticism. But let me inform those who are unaware, in my opinion, Heinrich's research is comparable from the German side as that of Peter, Chris, Andy and others is from the Allied side. He/we obviously made mistakes for various reasons, mainly because we did not know otherwise.

I think it's great that we are able now to improve on previous scribblings - after all, that's what our mutual interest is all about.

Cheers and good luck

Brian

Re: Hurricane P2701
 

Hello Brian,

I welcome your input.

Can you please tell the "unaware" just what Heinrich Weiss's research tells us about P2701 and ALLEN .

Many thanks
Alex
PS
My Grandson's don't wear glasses -yet :)

Re: Hurricane P2701
 

lampoon /lam'pu:n/ n. & v. • n. a satirical attack on a person etc. (The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Current English 1995)

I plead not guilty m’lud.

Re: Hurricane P2701
 

Hi Alex and others

I'll attempt to find my old material but Peter should have copies (I gave all Heinrich's material to Peter to use for his excellent 'Battle over France' tome).

I'm off to Malta in a few hours so may not have time before we go!

I'm enjoying this post.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Hurricane P2701
 

Hello Brian,

PLEASE Please Please - BRING BACK SOME WARM AND SUNNY WEATHER :)

Alex in a cold and windy Cornwall, no snow-yet where I am :(

Re: Hurricane P2701
 

Hello Guy's
Out of interest I came upon this looking through the RAF Commands AIR81 lists.

Part 2-Air81/374 - P/O T.J.Edwards Missing presumed dead; Hurricane P2562 crashed at Huldenberg, Belgium 15-May-1940.

BUT in FCLv1(revised) & 12 Days in May -
P2562 - 19 May 1940 - 85 Sqn - Sgt. J. McG. Little - KIA - S/d by Me109 of I/JG2 nr Lille, 1200hrs.

FCLv1(revised) & 12 Days in May both have Edwards (87 Sqn) in P2538.

Which is the correct serial number for these two pilots?

Alex

Re: Hurricane P2701
 

Hi All,

As we know the battle of France is really a nightmare with regards research. I should know as it was years of locating log books just to confirm P3351 was coded 'K' in France.

As Peter mentioned, on 13.5.40 Hurricane P2701 was issued to 85Sqn. So a few days before its loss I would expect a single letter identity which must be 'L'. (Can't remember ever seeing an 'I' as it could be confused with a 1 I suppose.

So Allen was an unknown burial was at Poix-de-Nord, near Cambrai as an unknown with only the date (18th May) as a start point but records indicate he was lost at Gembloux. Was this a confusion with the 15th May loss and not the 18th May loss?

Also two Hurricanes were lost on this 7.30am patrol on the 18th May 1940 with F/O Lepine bailing out N2425 and captured. So where was he lost? Cannot find anything more on him post war.

The seller does indicate P2701 is connected to Choisy-en-Brie and there is also a French bomber listed at the location. The seller is also selling photos from German units in Cambrai, Arras and a number of other places through France and also Belgium and then Russia. It looks like its a collection from a German soldier though unfortunately the unit (which would then lead to the units movement) is unknown which is a shame. One unit that is listed continuosly is Wehmacht unit called A.R.35.

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...Reg/AR35-R.htm

Part of the 35th Infantry Division.

Still trying to establish where P2701 was lost and even who flew her.
P2701 was lost in the week between 13th issue and 20th May (withdrawal) so who and where?

regards

Mark

Re: Hurricane P2701
 

Hello Mark,

From what I have read for P2701 and N2425 as both being downed in -
a)the Choisy-en-Brie area.
b) Le Cateau-Cambrai.
c) Gembloux.

Problem yet again with F/O W. N. Lepine in N2425, AIR81/550. says ftr, pow, 28 May 1940 but no a/c serial number given.

Alex

Re: Hurricane P2701
 

Hi Alex,

That must be incorrect as the remains of 85Sqn (4 aircraft?) flew back to the UK on the 20th. 18th would be more more realistic than 28th and logical.

This is the problem with breaking up photo collections unless you know where they came from. You have no source so how it was photographed and in what sequence. Often the photos were in the album chronologically so there might be a picture before of after (place) to help to locate.

regards

Mark

Re: Hurricane P2701
 

Alex

20th May 1940.
N2601 damaged on the ground during enemy bombing attack. 4pm. Sergeant A H Deacon unhurt. Aircraft damaged but repairable.
(BofF).

Is there any photos of other evidence of N2601.

It is reported as beloging to 145Sqn. It could well have been transferred and operated in France.

There is a possibility P2701 could have been N2601? The photo of P2701 could show a Hurricane damaged during a raid and may well be an airfield. The photo shows P2701 as repairable and was also abandoned as seen with the German troops.

Do you think it could have been incorrectly referenced especially as it seems P2701 was not Allens.

regards

Mark

In BofF book P2555 was shot down in combat on 20th May and crashed landed near Abberville at 101.5am. Sgt Howes unhurt. Aircraft a write off. If Allen's there should be no photos?

Re: Hurricane P2701
 

Levine should have an interview on return from POW camp and end of war they are held at Kew in the WO series. Only the start and end name index for Files are held online so you need to find it by looking in it alphabetically by name. One of questions is where and how captured this should give a location Paul

Re: Hurricane P2701
 

Mark

N2601/P2701 presents an interesting and plausable scenario, but the photo of P2701 looks more like a successful wheels-up landing finally coming to a halt with the nose tangled in a wire fence and with broken prop blades. No real evidence of blast damage (just one split in the fabric), but the aircraft does have a 'dirty' appearance.

Regards
Geoff

Re: Hurricane P2701
 

Hello Geoff,

Re the dirty appearance, yes, my thoughts on this are that the aircraft's previous squadrons code had been roughly "painted" over as the "L" and serial number are still quite clean and clear to read.
But the downside to that idea is that the aircraft seems only to have served with 85 Sqdn so unless the earlier code was still being worn on her when in France and the later code never applied ???

Alex

Re: Hurricane P2701
 

Hello,
Edit to my earlier post on page 1 , post 6.

P2701 - 11th May 40 - Pilot unknown, Brought down in Belgium, a/c ( & pilot ?) Returned.[ cannot now find ref for this info ;( ].

I now find that this date came from AB's P1000 to R9999.
P2701 - 85 - Shot down over Belgium, 11.5.40.

Alex

Re: Hurricane P2701
 

Lepine (not Levine sorry) interview should be in


WO 208/5443 LABATT - LUCAS

Re: Hurricane P2701
 

Geoff,

I remember reading about Z5227 (81Sqn/151 Wing in Russia) was trying to take off during a bombing raid on 6th Oct 1941. A blast near by stopped the engine, pilot got out and was blown off the wing by another blast. When raid was over, there was no damage to the Hurricane itself.

It would not be implausible that P2701 was damaged in a bombing raid and interestingly the pilot is listed so he was with his aircraft. Whether landing/taking off or just on the ground I have yet to establish.

Alex,

Interestingly on the 11th May F/O D H Allen returned damaged in his Hurricane near Nivelles. Allen unhurt but aircraft repairable. Interestingly no serial listed. The other three Hurricanes damaged were N2388, L1979 and P2821. Could this have been P2701 even if first listed with the Sqn on the 13th May. Would not be the first time tissue dates were wrong. P3351 was listed as belonging to 73Sqn from 18th June. It actually joined on the 3rd June.

regards

Mark

Re: Hurricane P2701
 

Hi guys,
I don't fully understand why this discussion is hopping around like this, but let me try to bring it back to the original question: why, where and when was the P2701 lost?

To me one thing is pretty sure from the new picture: the P2701 was located when found by Wehrmacht soldiers at Choisy-en-Brie, which is - as I explained in my earlier post - equivalent to the French (large) air force base La Ferté-Gaucher.
So this must have been an RAF Hurricane that was forced to land - probably damaged or out of fuel in some way - at this air field. Not necessarily during an operational flight, could also have been a transfer flight. It happened regularly that RAF aircraft landed at a French base, where mostly the British pilotes could take off the next day after a good French dinner, wine and refueling. For an unknown reason the P2701 apparently was not able to take off again, either through damage or developments on the ground.

The questions then are:
- when did this happen?
- to which squadron it belonged?
I fully accept Peter Cornwell's input that this plane was issued to No.85 Sqn on May 13, but all loss reports since then seem wrong as to this serial.
The question then remains what a No.85 Sqn Hurricane did as far east as La Ferté?
The only logical explanation I can think of is that the aircraft was transfered either directly or through a MU to another squadron. E.g. one operating more east and staying longer in France than No.85 Sqn, e.g. Nos.1, 73 or 501 Sqns. Transfer date latest May 20, when No.85 Sqn left France.
I buy the argument that towards the end of the campaign more aircraft did not carry their squadron code, so we have to look broader than just No.73 Sqn, unfortunately.
I would hope that the incident where a Hurricane had to be abandoned by its pilot at a French air field was noticeable enough to appear in the relevant squadron diary.

A separate, and equally difficult discussion, is which Hurricane was then flown by Allen on May 18 if it was not the P2701. But we should not mix those two discussions!

Cheers, Pieter

Re: Hurricane P2701
 

Mark,
I take your point about the effects of blast. Still a possibility but in this case I would favour a wheels up landing probably with dead engine, as in your original post.

Pieter,
Squadron? If you follow my reasoning from this photo (and enlargement) then definitely 85Sqdn for P2701. I suggest it is P2701 from the other side:
1. What appears as an 'I' on the port side of the photo in post #1 is just the start of the letter R ... then the unfortunate painter was probably told to stop as the aircraft was required immediately. It would have to be finished later. It wouldn't be the only case of missing lettering - hectic times, rushed replacement aircraft and limited resources.
2. A close inspection of the serial number on the stbd side of the photo below shows P2. Unfortunately the V masks the rest, but the top of a squared 'O' can just be seen within the letter V. Whoever now has a good copy of this photo would be able to confirm this and add more.
3. Same style of fence, and damage to fence, in both photos.
4. Same types of vegetation divided by the fence.
5. Attitude of the aircraft is the same in both and I can detect no differences (except the lettering) between the two aircraft images. The break and bend of the vertical prop blade is particularly noticeable.
6. If Peter C is correct that P2701 went to 85 Sqdn on 13 May, then being marked 'R' would fit well with the previous 'R' being lost on 11 May (N2388 according to BofFT&N, and this picture is not of N2388)
Location?
1. I find it hard to see an airfield. The location of Choisy-en-Brie given by the seller of the P2701 photo could so easily be a 'red herring' (but not to be dismissed entirely). Although some other photos of French aircraft by the same seller were marked with that location and appeared to come from the same photo printing, it doesn't mean they were taken at the same location. In the days of reel film, with only a limited number of shots on the reel, adjacent photos on the reel could be days or kilometres apart. Adding to an album could be weeks, months or even years afterwards. How good would the memory be for correct annotation? They might even have been copy prints taken by someone else. Many such photos were duplicated and passed around colleagues.
2. Choisy-en-Brie is over 100km from 85 Sqdns activities between 13th and 19th May.
3. Being some 50km east of Paris, Choisy would not have been occupied by the Germans until the first week in June at the earliest. Surely there would have been ample time for the pilot, or word of him, to get back.
4. A trip to the location by someone with a few weeks to spare could at least verify from the landscape if Choisy was a possibility.

Re: Hurricane P2701
 

Hi Geoff,

To start, I buy your story that the VY-R p2??1 (right side picture) and the P2701 code I? (left side picture) are the same aircraft. Mainly determined by the identical fence damage. Very creative thinking to interpret the left side coding as an unfinished one, but I think you're right. Shows again how complex it all is.
That would then definitely make it a No.85 Sqn aircraft. My apologies for having doubted that.
It looks like like P2701 was the replacement VY-R of the May 11 VY-R loss.

As to the date it then probably remains the May 18 loss of F/O Allen. But the 12 Days in May story where F/L Gleed of 87 Sqn describes Allen as crashing into a building can then not be correct. If it is this loss the location is around Le cateau. But what happened to Allen after his landing, making him "missing" then remains a mistery.

Regards, Pieter

Re: Hurricane P2701
 

Geoff,

Great find with the photo find. Never seen photos before of the same aircraft - fully coded on her starboard and incomplete on the starboard.

Not completed, painted up first thing in the early summer morning before going off on dawn patrol.

So we still have a time scale of 13-20th May. (BofFT&N) and where she might slot in.

13th May - Lille-Seclin 9.25am
Hurricane P2821 S/Ldr Oliver - Bailed out. Write off.

14th May - Nothing

15th May - Lille-Seclin 1.15pm
Hurricane P2818 F/O Allen - Bailed out. Write off.
Hurricane ? F/O Pace - crash landed and burnt out. Write off.
Hurricane L1775 P/O Ashton - Bailed out. Write off.

16th May - Lille-Seclin 2.00pm
Hurricane L1641 P/O Angus Killed . Nr Frettin. Write off.
Hurricane P2535 P/O Rawlinson Killed. Nr Quiévrain. Write off.
Hurricane N2389 Sgt Crozier. Bailed out burned. Write off.
Hurricane L1898 Sgt Allgood. Merville take off. Nr Lille crash landing. W.Off
16th May - Seclin
Hurricane P2824 P/O Clark. wounded. Write off.
Hurricane L1640 F/O Czernin. Nr Seclin. Force landed. Write off.

17th May Lille-Seclin 4.00pm
Hurricane N2319 P/O Herrick Vilvoorde/Braine-le-Comte. Captured. W/off

18th May Lille-Seclin 7.30am
Hurricane N2425 F/O Lepine. Bailed out captured. Le Cateau/Cambrai.
Hurricane P2701 F/O Allen. Missing. Write off.

19th May Merville 11.02am
Hurricane P2562 Sgt Little missing. Lille. Caugh fire. Write off.
Hurricane N2601 Sgt Deacon unhurt. Damaged on ground. Abandoned.
Hurricane P2547 P/O Woods-Scawen bailed out.Lille. Write off.
19th May Merville 5.00pm
Hurricane P2551 VYoH. S/Ldr Peacock bailed out. Unhurt. Wrote off.

20th May Merville
Hurricane ? Wreck at dispersal. Bombing raid 11.30. Write off.
Hurricane P2555 Sgt Howes . Abberville. Shot down. 1115am. Write off.
Hurricane ? S/Ldr Peacock. Arras. Pilot killed. Write off.
Hurricane ? P/O Burton killed. Querrieu. Pilot killed. 3.30 Write off.
Hurricane P3426 P/O Shrewsbury Killed. Arras 3.30pm. Write off.

Four remaining Hurricane flew home followig day.

So somewhere in here is the correct day for P2701 and possibly the pilot. This information must have come from fragmented records and log books/debriefs back in the UK?

Still not a lot to go on to help establish where P2701 was lost and which pilot. Just not enough landscape information to help bit the two photos we havare a great help. I am sure one or might surface in the future.

regards

Mark

Re: Hurricane P2701
 

Regarding P2701 and Allen, if the aircraft was lost behind enemy lines even if it was in a state where under normal conditions it could have been repaired, the RAF would still record it as written off if it didn't return.

As for the pilot there are several possibilities; he died shortly after landing and was buried near his aircraft, and the grave site was not marked properly and became lost over time (unlikeliest), or he was buried somewhere else nearby such as a graveyard and the burial not properly recorded or he initially evaded capture and was lost en route to Dunkirk or even in in the evacuation.

Re: Hurricane P2701
 

Hello,
GREAT to see photo of port AND starboard sides of P2701.
Thank you Geoff.
So What is the damage (?) to the tail unit ?
I originally took it to have been some sort of fold in the negative or print, but it can be seen in both pictures so was the white section of the fin flash being re-painted or is it some sort of damage ?
Alex

Re: Hurricane P2701
 

Sorry to dig up this again, but I was reading Page 208 of Fighter Boys by Patrick Bishop

And the passage reminded me on this thread

"Searching for his base in northern France after destroying a Me 110, Flight Lieutenant Ian Gleed of 87 Squadron saw a Hurricane flying serenely along and steered to join up with it. 'Just as I am drawing up to formate on this Hurricane, he dips I catch a fleeting glimpse of flying brick, and seemingly quite slowly, a Hurricane's tail, with the red, white and blue stripes, flies up past cockpit. I glance behind and see a cloud of dust slowly rising. He must have had some bullets in him to have hit that house. I wonder who was?'

The victim went to his end encased in a machine, sparing onlookers the horrible details. There was no body to confront. "


Now.. Trying to id this, incident.. then the 'evidence' as to this being Derek Hurlstone Allen #39840 (AFAIK) of 85 Squadron is that according to this web site

http://www.hatfield-herts.co.uk/aviation/gleed.html

On 17 May 1940 he arrived at 87 Squadron (which operated Hurricanes and had first deployed to France on 9 September 1939) as a replacement. He possibly became the RAF's fastest ace:
destroying two Bf110C's on 18 May, and two Do17z's and a Bf109E the next
day (he also shared in the destruction of a He111, and claimed another Bf109E as a probable).

So the incident of the Hurricane crash had to have happened after 17th May 1940 and the inference it being the 18th is the "after destroying a Me 110" the claimed two Bf110C (even though not 1) on 18 May.