captured helicopter
 

http:**http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Origina...item5671e93bf8

Replace ** with //

Notice 2 seat Me262 in the background

Re: captured helicopter
 

Is this USAAF Base Newark where the war prizes from HMS Reaper were de-mothballed?

Jim

Re: captured helicopter
 

Lovely photo already veering into pricey territory. The Fl 282 V12 and V23, presumably shortly before loading on to Reaper or indeed possibly just after arrival in the US.

Re: captured helicopter
 

Looks like one of the Horten wings in between the helicopter and the Me-262. Also the He-219 in the background.

Re: captured helicopter
 

Hi, guys!

The airfield in the first post by Snautzer is Cherbourg-Théville (nope: "Cherbourg-Querqueville" - see below). Typically French hangars pointed in the direction of a French airfield... (Both hangars and water tower can be seen in another picture of a Bf 109 when you google "cherbourg-theville luftwaffe".)

There are many more interesting pictures at Ebay - you can see a crane hoisting a Do 335 onto the HMS Reaper. The crane in question has the number BD-502 on it, which indicates it's a US Navy Derrick Crane Barge.

**tinyurl.com/o974lnu (replace ** with "http://")

EDIT: the correct name for the airfield in the picture is "Cherbourg-Querqueville"..! (Théville is to the east of Maupertus...)

Greetings,
Piet Bouma
The Netherlands

Re: captured helicopter
 

Snautzer,
The photographer who took this "captured helicopter picture" had the Baie de Querqueville to his right. That's where the aircraft were loaded from several barges onto the HMS reaper. Théville was very close to the water, so an excellent starting point for getting these captured aircraft on board of HMS Reaper...

Greetings,
Piet

Re: captured helicopter
 

Dear Piet,

Thank you for the great information. Your detailed knowledge is most welcome.

regards,
Jim

Re: captured helicopter
 

Hi, guys!
The Ebay photograph of the captured German aircraft has resulted in a situational photograph in which everyone can see where the actual picture was taken. The hangars and the water tower can be seen, as well as the taxiway on which the aircraft were parked temporarily - before embarking... Snautzer, thanks again for posting - a most interesting subject..! :)
Greetings,
Piet

Re: captured helicopter
 

Excellent post - thank you.

Re: captured helicopter
 

Thanks, Steve..!
Glad you like it. Here's another one. This one marks the embarking spot and some distinct points in another photograph (the aircraft being transported on the barges towards HMS Reaper) from the Ebay series. The aircraft were hoisted from the barges onto HMS Reaper at an excellent spot. Nicely protected by the jetty and the ancient fort that was partially breaking the waves...
Some landmarks are no longer there - they made way for the current Naval Academy and a housing area...
Greetings,
Piet Bouma
The Netherlands

Re: captured helicopter
 

Yes, also very helpful.

Re: captured helicopter
 

Dear Pete,

Just to clarify, are you saying that the barges were clustered at the slipways rather than inside the protected water area next to the airfield?

Regards,
Richard

Re: captured helicopter
 

Dear Richard,
I don't know at what point the barges were clustered. I can't be sure which slipway(s) was/were used, since I haven't seen any photographic evidence on this subject.
When you look at the aerial photograph and compare the WW II situation with Google Earth and take some measurements, you'll see that the harbour entrance is 35 metres at its widest, so a Ju 188 with its wingspan of 22 metres would fit nicely, but there wasn't enough room for all the barges to be clustered before leaving this harbour.
Clustering therefore must have taken place in the Baie de Querqueville. More questions arise: where the barges still clustered when the Derrick Crane Barge of the US Navy lifted the aircraft on board the HMS reaper? Or where the barges unloaded one by one..? Were the slipways used or were the aircraft hoisted onto the barges by a crane (the same Derrick Crane Barge, maybe?)? When using slipway nr.2 you'd have a problem when descending, since you'll encounter a rising harbour wall on the right hand side...
I don't know. Maybe there are texts about this process in the Archives..? I know there are some documents at FOLD3 (when searching for "Querqueville"), but these can't be looked into for free. If they contain any further info, I don't know either...
With kind regards,
Piet Bouma
The Netherlands

Re: captured helicopter
 

Dear Piet,

It's clear that you've made a specialty investigating this subject. Your help is most appreciated.

Conjecturing, I'd say that the Rhino barges were individually loaded at slipway 2 within the protected harbor. Perhaps a land crane was available for the loading, thus minimizing or eliminating the need to actually use the slipway. Another possibility was that there wasn't a need for a crane at all, but rather the barge was run up to the harbour containment wall, a ramp placed connecting the land area to the barge, and the aircraft simply rolled onto the barge - an Occam's razor solution. Then, the barges might have been clustered outside of the harbour after loading. Since we've seen photos of the individually loaded barges on the move, there is no reason to suspect a need to have had them clustered next to the HMS Reaper, but rather brought alongside one at a time for unloading.

Regards,
Richard

Re: captured helicopter
 

Dear Richard,
The subject of the transportation of the captured aircraft is not my specialty. I'm just interested in these aircraft and when looking into a subject I try to have a look at all the info available on the internet, especially the aerial photography part does have my full attention...
Your explanation of how the transportation took place sounds right. Hopefully there will emerge some more photographs to support the thoughts thus far...
The Digue de Querqueville is a very interesting subject in itself by the way, since this was used in the PLUTO Pipeline project as well..! PLUTO being an abbreviation for PipeLine Under The Ocean - a pipeline for transporting fuel from the Isle of Wight (UK) to Cherbourg. One of the fuels was Aviation Fuel..!
So a set of intriguing photographs on Ebay started of a very interesting bit of research..!
Greetings,
Piet

P.S. Picture added - ©www.normandie-heritage.com

Re: captured helicopter
 

Dear Piet,

I've been pouring over your annotated aerial photos and the photo of the 4 or more loaded Rhino barges. I think you may be wrong about the 11 buildings across the bay. In the barge photo, the buildings, 7 plus 1, the missing 2 you attribute to be hiding in the trees, are angled in the photo, as you can see their right sides. They are more spaced than in your aerial photo and thus I think we are not looking at the same buildings. That said, we are comparing a 1945 barge photo to a 1947 aerial photo. Close in years, but the buildings in the 1945 photo could have been torn down and replaced, or we are looking at 2 groups of buildings not in the same place.

Said another way, the buildings in the 1947 aerial photo are very close together, while the ones in the 1945 barge photo are not.

Which then brings the question that's plagued me all along - just exactly where were the barges in the barge photo? Note that there appears to be a walkway in the lower right hand corner of the photo, as seen by the light hand rail. Such a hand rail doesn't appear on any of the barges. I can't make out any of the containment wall of the harbour. While one might think that just beyond the walkway is a slipway, it might be an optical illusion and just be another barge angled away from the one closest to it.

I'm certainly open to anyone's insights into the matter.

Regards,
Richard

Re: captured helicopter
 

Dear Richard,

I'm still convinced those are the very same buildings - the Caserne was there already in 1915. I've made a comparison of both the IGN and Barge picture background (© IGN France and ©Ebay auction 2015). You can see several similarities. I've numbered several buildings, to make comparing them a bit easier.

Buildings number 1 - 7 appear to have a larger spacing between them, but I believe we don't see the lower part of the roofs of these buildings, since these are obscured by a wall in front of them.

Buildings A, B and C can be seen in both pictures too. From the barges we look straight at the side of building B, I believe.

There is a light sand coloured area before the wall close to the water. The beginning and ending of this spot looks about the same in both photographs.

The trees obscure some buildings (see green arrows X and Y). The trees marked by arrow X are behind the building marked with the letter B. (By the way, it looks like you can see a tiny bit of building 11 (not numbered, but in sequence) between buildings A and B. This building is partly obscured by a lower roof on the right end of building A and the trees behind building B.)

As far as the railing is concerned - these railings are visible in the picture of HMS Reaper and the Derrick Crane Barge BD-502 (© Book American Raiders). I marked the mooring spot (which adds up when you draw a straight line from building B) in this picture. This should be the most practical mooring point closest to HMS Reaper and BD-502.

Greetings,
Piet

Re: captured helicopter
 

Richard,
One more of the position of which I think the Rhino Barges were moored:
**http://www.dday-overlord.com/img/arc..._normandie.jpg (delete **)

In this picture (24 July 1944) you'll find the railings in place too...

Copyright:
**http://www.dday-overlord.com/photos_...erqueville.htm (delete **)

Hope this helps...
Greetings,
Piet

Re: captured helicopter
 

Dear Richard,
A WW II picture of a boat mooring at the same place where HMS Reaper moored. The PLUTO pipelines in place - and a sort of walkway protruding to the South side of the Digue de Querqueville - therefore necessitating the safety railings. These railings appear to be lighter of colour in some places. The shape of the railings is matching, when you look at both pictures. I'd say it was here that the Rhino Barges were moored before the captured aircraft were hoisted on board HMS Reaper.
What's your opinion?
Greetings,
Piet Bouma
The Netherlands

Re: captured helicopter
 

Dear Piet,

I have met my analytical superior. Absolutely fantastic! There are just too many supporting comparisons to refute that the buildings are not, indeed, the same. My hat is off to you. By the way, what is the date on the aerial close-up photo showing the building complex?

And, I fully agree with you as to the anchoring spot for the barges. I was thinking the same, but the question about the buildings had thrown me off. The shoals outside of the small harbour convinced me that this wasn't likely the anchorage spot.

You've also solved another question, possibly without realizing it. In the barge cluster photo, I had no real idea what the log was for extending into the lower right hand corner of the photo. The cargo ship anchored in the future berth of the HMS Reaper is anchored by 3 log land anchors at the bow, something I've never heard of or seen before. At least that's what they appear to be to me.

You have completely solved all of the mysteries. Again, fantastic, or, as the British would say, Brilliant!

Regards,
Richard

Re: captured helicopter
 

Well, thanks, Richard... I feel a bit embarrassed as I have just checked the old LEMB Forum (Dave Evans's Luftwaffe Message Board) and I've seen that there was an old set of pictures of the previous Ebay sales and guess what... There is even physical evidence of Slipway 1 being the one that was used for loading the aircraft onto the Rhino Barges..! I wish I had checked this before, but I'm afraid I didn't take the time to do so... This would have saved some time, but it kept the mind clear during research I guess... Anyway, as I see it - our mutual efforts have resulted in getting as far as we stand now. This is the way historical research has to be - when working together people can solve more questions than when one is working alone... You kept me sharp by asking critical questions. Thanks for the cooperation - I liked it very much..!
Greetings,
Piet Bouma
The Netherlands

Re: captured helicopter
 

Dear Piet,

Yes, I looked at the shoals and said to myself "What a crappy place slipway 1 would have been to load the barges." The photo confirms it. Look at how the barge is lifted up onto a sandbar!!! That's assuming that is, indeed, a sandbar. They must have used the tides to make it work or stopped after the first barge loading. At least the sandbar or whatever it is would have kept the barge firmly in place during loading.

You've further added to our knowledge, for which I am most grateful.

Regards,
Richard

Re: captured helicopter
 

Agreed. Piet - your input to this has been greatly appreciated.

Re: captured helicopter
 

You're welcome, Richard and Steve - it's an interesting subject.
I liked the research a lot..!
Greetings,
Piet