8./JG 2 Staffelkapitän
 

Dear All,

Would someone be able to advise the name(s) of the 8./JG 2 Staffelkapitän(e) from the date of Staffel's formation until Hptm. Alexander von Winterfeldt took command of the Staffel sometime in June 1940.

Any assistance in this respect will be much appreciated.

Regards,
Sinisa

Re: 8./JG 2 Staffelkapitän
 

All the published sources have drawn a blank as to the name

Re: 8./JG 2 Staffelkapitän
 

Chris,

Thank you for the confirmation, it is highly valued.

Regards,
Sinisa

Re: 8./JG 2 Staffelkapitän
 

Just some additional notes that I gathered thus far.

In his book entitled Jagdgeschwader 2 "Richthofen", on page 123, John Weal refers to Hptm. von Winterfeldt as the 8./JG 2 first Staffelkapitan. Perhaps he meant the first known Staffelkapitan?

On the other hand in Prien, Stemmer and others book Die Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934 bis 1945, Teil 2, page 54, one can see practically identical emblem to 8./JG 2 emblem sported under the cockpit of the Stab/JG 2’s Bf 109 E-1 "Arrow* and bar" sometime in the spring of 1940 as one of the Geschwaderadjutants' personal emblem. Whether the said personal emblem somehow influenced the choice of the 8./JG 2 emblem during the period when III./JG 2 shared the Frankfurt-Rebstock airfield with Stab/JG 2 between 10 April 1940 and 9 May 1940 is not known.

Whether the Geschwaderadjutant might have been the first (and acting) Staffelkapitan of 8./JG 2 is also the matter of conjecture. There is no proof for that except the loose connection via the apparent similarity of the emblems.

Any further constructive thoughts or comments will be most welcome.

Regards,
Sinisa

Re: 8./JG 2 Staffelkapitän
 

Re: 8./JG 2 Staffelkapitän
 

I think that Metz & Stolle were too junior (albeit Metz was eventually St Kap when taken POW) and isn't Falting the same as Palting?

Re: 8./JG 2 Staffelkapitän
 

Gentlemen,

Thank you very much for the additional notes on the subject.

Regards,
Sinisa

Re: 8./JG 2 Staffelkapitän
 

I have found some notes which say Hptm Erich Gerlitz, then Von Winterfeld, then Metz, then Falting then Stolle in Spring 1941

Re: 8./JG 2 Staffelkapitän
 

Re: 8./JG 2 Staffelkapitän
 

Post Nos.5 and 8 refer. An excerpt from Douglas Stankey and Larry de Zeng work in progress on the LW officers careers - GERLITZ, Erich. (DOB: 12.02.12 in Austria). 03.38 Lt., Staka Jagdstaffel 5 of Jagdgeschwader II of the Austrian Air Force. 15.03.38 Hptm., appt Staka 3./JG 135. 01.11.38 appt Staka 3./JG 233. 01.05.39 appt Staka 3./JG 51 (to 14.03.40). c.14.03.40 appt Staka 7./JG 2. 03.05.40 Hptm., in 8./JG 2. 13.06.40 Hptm., 1./JG 1 ...

From the above it is evident that from the beginning of his career with the Luftwaffe Hptm. Gerlitz held command posts with various Staffeln. Unless he was demoted for the reason unknown, his transfer from 7./JG 2 to 8./JG 2 meant that he likely took the command of the latter Staffel too.

The above also implies that there was yet another Staffelkapitän, or at least acting Staffelkapitän with 8./JG 2 before Hptm. Gerlitz.

Regards,
Sinisa

Re: 8./JG 2 Staffelkapitän
 

Re: 8./JG 2 Staffelkapitän
 

Sidney,

By process of elimination using the list provided by Larry, we have

From Chris Goss - Palting - a double for Falting – thus removed

Also from yourself and Chris Goss - Stafflekapitan after Gerlitz became Staffelkapitan on 04.05.40 were Gerlitz, Von Winterfeld, Metz, Falting and Stolle so can also be removed.

This leaves – Arnim, Bethke, Willinger, and Wollslager

Bethke was Staka 4./ErgJGr Merseburg 10.02.40 – 24.04.40 – thus can be removed

Willingers claims in 1940 was as a Ofw and 1941 as Sfw – KIA as Oblt 05.02.43 – thus can be removed.

Wollschlager – born 12.11.18 was only 21 at the time which is very young when most Staka were much older at that stage of the conflict (Gerlitz 28 yo, Winterfeld 42 yo) thus very unlikely

This leave only von Arnim.

Harald von Arnim was born 30.09.05 which would have made him 35 yo at the time which is more typical of Staka before the invasion of France. However, his claim on 28.09.40 list him as a Ltn at a time when most pilots that age were at least Hptm? This brings the question as to whether he was demoted at some point. Could he have been the first Staka and was demoted ? The officer Database also has a conflict with him being in JFS5 at the time yet he made a claim in September that they have as questionable. Does anyone have further information about his career prior to his first claim 28.09.40? If he was with JFS 5 then no one matches and it must be someone else?

Another way of confirming who was the first Staka can be through the Erkennungsmarkes (EKMs). The EKM’s are the personal dog tag number issued to all servicemen. Initially, in the early days of the war, a unit based numbering system was used, for example a pilot in 8 staffel JG 2 would have had an EKM of “8./JG 2 Nr. xx “ where xx was the consecutive number issued within the Staffel.

However, sometime around March/April 1940 the Luftwaffe reissued the EKM’s changing from the unit based numbering system to a coded system which was to be issued when aircrew were posted to an operational unit - this was later changed with the introduction of Erganzungsgruppe (operational training units) where aircrew were issued their EKM before they went to an operational unit. Anyway, it appears that those who were already in operational units were reissued at that time (April 1940) and in most cases it appears that the numbers were issued based on seniority within the unit, so the Staffelkapitan was issued Number 1, then officers then NCO’s etc. 8./JG 2 was issued the code “53518” and since the reissuing occurred soon after the formation of 8./JG2 (March 1940) - whoever was issued “53518/1” would likely have been the first Staffelkapitan. (I said likely because in most cases for existing units in April 1940 where I’ve seen the EKM number “1” they were identified as the Staffelkapitan of that unit at that time but in a few cases it was obvious this is not the case - though these may be an error? - It is a different story for those units formed after April 1940?)

Unfortunately, I do not have any EKMs for 8./JG2 to be able to help you further. Does anyone know who had the EKM “53518/1” ? was this von Arnim or was it someone else altogether ?

I know I’ve created more questions than I’ve solved but it is a direction of enquiry which I think is worth following!

Regards,

Craig…

Re: 8./JG 2 Staffelkapitän
 

Re: 8./JG 2 Staffelkapitän
 

53518/1 was Gerlitz.

Matti

Re: 8./JG 2 Staffelkapitän
 

Post No.12: Craig, thank you for bringing this post back to life by your excellent analysis.

The expertise shared here on the TOCH cannot be praised high enough.

Sinisa

Re: 8./JG 2 Staffelkapitän
 

Thanks Matti

Gerlitz EKM being 53518/1 raises some interesting issues and has gotten me intrigued.

either
1. The change over of EKM’s occurred after Gerlitz became Staka 8./JG2 on 03.05.40, or
2.Gerlitz became Staka 8./JG2 before 03.05.40
In my opinion, I don’t believe the first is correct because of several other EKM’s that I’ve looked at – for example, the EKM for Heinrich Graf von Stillfried und Rattonitz was “60022/1” where 60022 was the code for the Stabstaffel of KG54 in which Stillfried was Staka until he was transferred to Zerstorerschule Schleisheim to be retrained as a zerstorer pilot on 07.04.40 – so the coded system was definitely in place before this date.

Therefore this raises many questions about Gerlitz.
-when was Gerlitz actually appointed Staka of 8./JG2 ?
-was he was Staka 7./JG 2 at all ?
-If Gerlitz wasn’t the first Staka 7./JG 2 then who was ?

The next Staka for 7./JG 2 after Gerlitz was Hptm Armin Ettling who came from 1./ZG 2 but his transfer date is unclear. The Officer summaries has 2 entries - one where he was acting Kdr III./JG2 from 03.05.40 to 10.06.40 which again raises another questions as Dr. Erich Mix was Kdr and made claims during this period. Mix was WIA 21.05.40 so it’s possible that Ettling was acting Kdr while Mix was recovering therefore the first date was either wrong ! or another option is that Mix was acting Kommodore JG2 at that time and Ettling as acting Kdr III./JG2? More on this later! The second entry was his appointment as Staka 7./JG2 in May 1940 of which he was Staka until at least 06.09.40 when he made his last claim with the unit.

One way to find out is to look at the EKM’s again. The code for 7./JG 2 was 53517, and the code for 1./ZG2 was 55564. Matti do you know who had the EKM’s “53517/1” and “55564/1”? Was one of these Ettling ? Mix as Kdr should have had “53516/1” and Carl Roders was Staka of 9./JG2 should have had “53519/1” – can you confirm this? If it wasn’t these pilots then who held these numbers ?

Larry in your research for the Officer Summaries what was the documented evidence that Gerlitz moved from 7./JG 2 to 8./JG 2 on 03.05.40 – I ask this as I suspect that it came from a listing of staffel personnel dated 03.05.40 which listed him as Staka of 8./JG2 (and Ettling as acting Kdr) and that his move from 7./JG 2 could have been earlier (much earlier than most think?). If it was a listing and Ettling was A/Kdr we may be able to find out what happened with Mix?

Personally, I’m beginning to suspect that Gerlitz was never in 7./JG2 or if he was - it was for a very short time. I believe the association of Gerlitz with 7./JG 2 came from the fact that he was Staka of 3./JG 51 which was used as the Cadre to establish III./JG 2. I suspect initially that 3./JG 51 was renamed 7./JG 2 on 14.03.40 and on 16.03.40 was split up to form 8 and 9 ./JG2 with Gerlitz going to form 8./JG 2. I also suspect that Ettling became Staka 7./JG2 at this time because his previous unit was redesignated from 1./JGr102 to 1./ZG2 on 30.01.40 which was when they began re-equipping from the early version single engine Bf109 to the new twin engine Bf110, this resulted many pilots who were not rated to fly the Bf110 being transferred out to other Bf109 units in February/March 1940 - I suspect that Ettling may have been one of those transferred at that time. On splitting up of 3./JG 51 with the initial formation of III./JG2, Gerlitz probably got the second Staffel probably due to seniority rather than stay with 7./JG2 - Ettling being more senior (was later A/Kdr before Gerlitz!) got the first Staffel (7./JG 2) and Roders as an Oblt was obviously the junior Staka got the third staffel (9./JG2) - Seniority is important in military circles and probably an easy way to number the new staffeln.

Anyway, in Summary, I suspect that these were the initial commanders of III./JG 2 and their EKM’s

GpKdr III./JG 2 - Hptm/Maj Dr Erich Mix – EKM 53516/1
Staka 7./JG 2 - Hptm Armin Ettling – EKM 53517/1
Staka 8./JG 2 - Hptm Erich Gerlitz – EKM 53518/1
Staka 9./JG 2 - Oblt Carl Roders – EKM 53519/1

Matti can you confirm the EKMs?
Larry can you advise source of information in Officer summary related to the date 03.05.40 as mentioned earlier?

I may be wrong about my suspicions but would only know from further input from both (which I do appreciate) and look forward to helping solve this mystery.

Regards,

Craig…

Re: 8./JG 2 Staffelkapitän
 

55564/1 was Guenther Vowinkel. All the EKMs in your Summary are correct.

Matti

Re: 8./JG 2 Staffelkapitän
 

Re: 8./JG 2 Staffelkapitän
 

With regard to EKMs, I have a question. It appears that if an individual changes units, his EKM will change. And thus the EKM cannot be used to track an individual through his Luftwaffe career. Is there a number, or ID, which does track an individual through his Luftwaffe career?

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: 8./JG 2 Staffelkapitän
 

Re: 8./JG 2 Staffelkapitän
 

Thanks Larry. The British and the Americans assigned unique numbers to enlisted men at least by the time of World War 1. And after WW1 both countries assigned unique numbers to all officers. One's number only changed if one moved from enlisted to officer. Interesting that the Germans didn't do this.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: 8./JG 2 Staffelkapitän
 

Re: 8./JG 2 Staffelkapitän
 

Thanks Matti

Your confirmation of EKMs has reassured me that I’m on the right track.

All,

To take another direction, it’s interesting that Vowinkel has 55564/1 which puts him in 1./ZG2 around March/April 1940. I never knew that, though I notice in Larry’s and Doug’s latest release that they now have Vowinkel in I./ZG2 in March 1940 and in a separate entry have a Oblt Vohwinkel as unhurt after a belly landing on 09.06.40. An uncommon name therefore one could surmise that they are the same. On this basis that would make Vowinkel Staka of 1./ZG 2 after Ettling transferred out to JG2 to at least 09.06.40.

However, this is in conflict with John Vasco’s Zerstorer book which has an Oblt Fritz Ludders as Staka 1./ZG 2 when he was killed in a landing accident on 20.05.40 and was replaced by Oblt Gerhard Goetz to be StaFu 1./ZG2. Goetz was Tech Offr of Stabschwarm I./ZG2 who in turn was replaced by Oblt Reinhold Messner. In another twist, Doug and Larry’s latest work has Goetz as Staka 3./ZG2 from 3.40 – 25.08.40 then in a second entry has him as a POW 05.08.40 as Staka of 1./ZG2. From this, one can only assume that Goetze transferred from 3 Staffel to 1 Staffel on 25.07.40 – much later than John Vasco has on 20.05.40! Which would make one think that Vowinkel was still in command of 1./ZG2 until 25.07.40 !

However, this raises many more questions? If Vowinkel was still in I./ZG2 on the 09.06.40, where was he on 20.05.40. He wasn’t A/Gpkdr as Hptm Gentzen was active until KIA 28.05.40. Maybe Ludders was StaFu not StaKa? Also, was Goetze StaKa 3./ZG 2 or in Stabstaffel as the Tech Offr on 20.05.40?

The other possibility is that Vowinkel left 1./ZG2 before 20.05.40 and that the Vohwinkel unhurt in the accident on 09.06.40 was another person. I think this being another person is unlikely as it’s such an uncommon name? Again, another possibility is that the date of the accident maybe wrong. In my notes I have Ludders becoming Staka on 10.05.40 (unfortunately I didn’t record the source and cannot find it again) – could Vowinkel’s accident been on 09.05.40 (not 09.06.40?) and that Ludders took over as Stafu not Staka at that time?

I note that John Vasco is a member – maybe he can put his input to clarify this.

Regards,

Craig…

Re: 8./JG 2 Staffelkapitän
 

Larry,

I understand. When I first started researching the Luftwaffe as a youngster, I made a lot of notes without referencing the source (It’s a hobby to me – I’m not a professional researcher). Being on the other side of the world, accessing primary sources is not easy, so I tend to rely on secondary sources (books / internet etc). However, using such sources has created many questions (and conflict in data) so I began taking notes of the source, but this has slowed me down considerably. Also, it’s all became on big mess with referenced and unreferenced data (which I’m trying to correct as I go) therefore I’m currently trying to put it all into some logical order. A very time consuming task, so I imagine that the task you and Doug have set yourself would not be easy.

Anyway, thanks for your efforts. I find Doug and your work a very useful source, so keep up the good work.

Regards,

Craig…

Re: 8./JG 2 Staffelkapitän
 

Re: 8./JG 2 Staffelkapitän
 

I did quite some research into Maj. Günther Vowinckel, geb. 07.089.1912 Krefeld, as he was killed on 1.1.1945 during Bodenplatte. I have quite a number of documents and also a copy of his FB. Anyway, I can confirm he had EM 55564/1. From his Personalakte he was with I./ZG 2 from 31.3.1940 until 7.8.1940 and he flew 50 Feindflüge during this period. Not sure if he was Staffelkapitän but it seems highly likely.

Regards,

John.

Re: 8./JG 2 Staffelkapitän
 

For what it's worth, have you seen http://www.ww2.dk/misc/wastjg2.pdf

Doesn't really help with the formation but may be of interest anyway.

Re: 8./JG 2 Staffelkapitän