P-51 loss on 2 April 1945
 

Hello,

The link below describes a forced-landing of a P-51 pilot between Löhrbach and Ober-Abtsteinach, Hessen, Germany (ENE of Mannheim), on 2 April 1945. According to witnesses, the already wounded pilot died of his wounds on site shortly after the forced landing.
http://www.morr-siedelsbrunn.de/%C3%...l%C3%B6hrbach/

Neither this pilot or the unit is identified, and I have been unable to find a possible ID for him (I found two P-51 pilots killed this day but one in Austria and one in Denmark area).

Any idea ? 354th FG was involved in an air battle not far away, but AFAIK suffered no loss.

Re: P-51 loss on 2 April 1945
 

Laurent:

Based on the code YF-D and name "Sweet Stuff" I think this P-51D was from the 8th AF Second Scouting Force based out of Steeple Morden.

I found online records (at http://www.littlefriends.co.uk) that suggest this was s/n 44-11341 and assigned to Cap. George Ceglarski, but there appears to be some confusion as to the serial between the ship shown in the picture you linked Capt. Ceglarski's later P-51K "Sweet Stuff II." The Little Friends site also has a picture of Capt. Ceglarski with the later ship.

Fold3 doesn't have an MACR for Ceglarski, so it seems likely that another 2SF pilot was flying YF-D on 2 April 1945.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,
Paul Dame

Re: P-51 loss on 2 April 1945
 

Thanks for searching, but my understanding of the German text under the picture is that the picture displayed was not taken on this crash site, but that the forced landed P-51 on 2 April 1945 probably looked like the one displayed on the picture.

Re: P-51 loss on 2 April 1945
 

My lack of German strikes again. Well, at least I learned something new about the 8th AF Scouting Force. I'll keep digging as well as I'm intrigued by the mystery.

Re: P-51 loss on 2 April 1945
 

Hello,

From Accident-Report.com webpage

44-11341 - P-51D - 441126 - United Kingdom.
44-11341 - P-51D - 450108 - United Kingdom.

And from Aviation Archaeology webpage

441126 - P-51D-5 - 44-11341 - 2sf - 122 - 8- CRL - 4 - Ceglarski, George W - ENG - Steeple Morden/Sta 122.
450108 - P-51D-5 - 44-11341 - 2sf - 122 - 8- CRL - 3 - Castleberry, Marvin H - ENG - Steeple Morden/Sta 122.

.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/1944
has -

11341 (2nd Scouting Force, 355th FG) crashlanded at RAF Steeple Morden, Cambridgeshire, England Jan 8, 1945.
Pilot survived but aircraft was destroyed.


So perhaps not this aircraft after all?
Perhaps the photo of her was used as an example ?

Here are the known P-51 MACR's for 45/04/02 -
13641 - 44-14462 - 325FG/318FS - Austria - Parker - KIA.
13642 - 43-24784 - 325FG/318FS - Austria - Davis(MACR) OR Southern ? - KIA.
13688 - 44-11890 - 3FG/8FS - China - Pilot KIA.
13965 - 44-13814 - 364FG/385FS - North Sea - Hassell - Never found.
14148 - 44-14467 - 325FG/318FS - Hungary - Murphy - RTD.

Here are the known P-51 Accidents for 45/04/02 -
44-63486 - 332FG/99FS - Italy - Barland.
44-15662 - 479FG/436FS - England - Sherer - RTD.

Alex

Re: P-51 loss on 2 April 1945
 

There is no doubt the aircraft in the photo is 44-11341 of the 2nd SF but the damages look totaly different of the ones suffered on 8 January 1945 (http://www.americanairmuseum.com/media/8884).

May it have been repared after all ?

I found nothing in Bill Marshall's book about the 355th FG and 2nd SF for the 2nd SF on 2 April 1945 but may he have something to add about this photo...

Regards

Alfred

Re: P-51 loss on 2 April 1945
 

Hello,

Photo caption says -
" Thus, the emergency landing machine might have looked ".

So Not the actual aircraft involved but purely shown for example of how the crashed aircraft might have looked.

As for the date, was the 2nd April 1945 Easter Monday ?

Also, it seems that the area was no longer in German hands as the US troops arrived as did a "Storch" which landed near the crashed aircraft and was crewed by Americans.

So it would not have an MACR as was in Allied territory, perhaps an accident report but if not an accident then perhaps not.

Pilot was wounded and was removed from the aircraft, and died, so would have been recovered at some point, his IDPF would give full details, but for that a name is required. :(

The wreckage was later recovered by a US unit so possible recovery report exists ?

9th AAF aircraft near to this date was a PR version the day before 04/01/1945, possibly named "Guarding Angel", an F-6, 42-103216 - 111TRS - Germany - MACR 13654 - Carl A. Sodermark.

The only other explanation would be either RAF or French P-51.
Stretching it perhaps another "Bubble" hood type, such as a Typhoon or Tempest ?

Looked at MACR 13654 and it just might fit...



http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg...&GRid=83964551

Note date of internment - 7/1948.

alex

Re: P-51 loss on 2 April 1945
 

All:

Absent another good candidate, I concur with Alex that Lt. Sodermark's F-6 fits the bill. By way of further check, I ran the coordinates given in MACR 13654 through the grid conversion tool at http://www.echodelta.net/mbs/eng-welcome.php.

The first grid given (R-7868) corresponds to the town of Waldangelloch, and the next (R-7795) is further north, which corresponds with Lt. Schutt's report that he and Sodermark turned north towards U.S. lines after Sodermark was hit. Morever, both R-7868 and R-7795 show as almost due South of Lohrback where the crash is recorded.

Moreover, based on the maps I can find of the U.S. ground offensive in this area of Germany, this area was a very fluid frontline area 1-3 April 1945 that would likely call for armed recce attention.

None of this explains the apparent discrepancy between the MACR compiled on 3 April 1945 that unequivocally states that the mission on which Lt. Sodermark was lost took place on Easter Sunday 1 April 1945 and the equally unequivocal statement on the German website Laurent found that states the crash happened on Easter Monday 2 April 1945.

Best regards,
Paul

Re: P-51 loss on 2 April 1945
 

Personally, i am not sure I have the right guy here, but I have the IDPF for a LT Carl A. Sodermark, a member of a TAC Recon Sqdn, who was buried at Unterschwarzbach, with an estimated DoD of 31 March 1844. That is a good 250km SE of the original site of Loehrbach. Grid there is given as R906867. Danny

Re: P-51 loss on 2 April 1945
 

Oh, and he was buried first by the US at the temp. cemetery at Bensheim.

Re: P-51 loss on 2 April 1945
 

A big, fat AHA. Using the calculator provided by Paul, it turns out to be the town of Schwarzbach, which is about 30km due SSE from Loehbach. So that fits better and makes sense. Danny

Re: P-51 loss on 2 April 1945
 

Afraid you are running around in circles gents! The photo in the German article shows the 26 November incident at Steeple Morden. Goodness only knows how they associated this 2SF P-51 with the german forced landing. Very poor quality photo becuse I could only photocopy at the time at NARA, but you will see that it matches the German photo exactly, save for the information having been cropped of the bottom.

Re: P-51 loss on 2 April 1945
 

Danny:

I'm pretty sure that's our guy. To remove doubt, his ASN from the MACR was O-816947 and he was assigned to the 111th Tactical Recon Squadron flying out of Azelot, France when he was shot down.

Are there any further details on his recovery in the IDPF? The website that Laurent references indicates that a spotter plane landed near the crash prior to recovery of Lt. Sodermark by follow-on troops.

Best regards,
Paul

Re: P-51 loss on 2 April 1945
 

Thanks to everybody

I agree that Lt Sodermark might be the right man. The MACR was written just two days after his loss, but there is nothing in it about efforts to find him, maybe because he was found shortly later. So he might be the man in the story of the German website, one day of difference by the German witness being understandable.

The original burial location of Bensheim is close enough. If a spotter plane (identified as a Storch by the German witness, but probably an American Piper Cub) landed and took the wounded/died pilot, it is not so far away, even by road.

Bensheim was taken by the 45th Infantry Division on 27 March 1945. The 103rd US Infantry Division was also there, but only later (after 7 April 1945). So I will now search confirmation of this story in 45th Division papers and stories.

Edited: the 45th Infantry Division went NE and was no more there on 1 April 1945, at least most of it. Troops of US XXI Corps (12th Armored, 4th and 42nd Infantry Divisions) were also in the area. So a lot of possibilities to find a needle...

Re: P-51 loss on 2 April 1945
 

I think he was buried by Germans at Bensheim and it quite possibly was a Storch as I doubt the Americans would have buried him in Bensheim. But then again, I think that Bensheim had a US Military Mausoleum, so who knows.

Alas, the IDPF is lacking any information, as the pilot was returned to his family in the US. Most IDPFs from returned personnel have had most of the original IDPF removed and replaced by the transport, internment and inventory documents.

Sorry I could not be of more help. Danny

Re: P-51 loss on 2 April 1945
 

Hello SSG Keay,

I see from your earlyier post (9) that you have the IDPF. Date by the way should read estimated DoD of 31st March 1945 I think, not 1844, unless at the time they used a possible 1 year + 1 day rule i.e 30th March 1944 becomes 31st March 1945, but 1844 ?

From my own experience it takes over a year to receive an IDPF when requested. In some cases the MACR is part of the report as are the German KU reports, Body injuries etc in full, Travell arrangements including accompanying officers name(s) etc funeral parlor name and even down to number of rounds fired at the final Home interment.

If at all possible would you be so kind as to send copy to me ?
My email is alexATsmart98.freeserve.co.uk
@ in place of AT as per usual.

Many thanks
Alex

Re: P-51 loss on 2 April 1945
 

During the war, US forces, like other belligerents, created many cemeteries to bury their soldiers where they fell, or near by. These casualties were then reburied after the war, in the US or in some big war cemeteries depending of the family wishes.

Re: P-51 loss on 2 April 1945
 

All:

There was indeed a temporary American cemetery at Bensheim. According to the unit history of the 46th Quartermaster Graves Registration Company (see http://www.med-dept.com/unit-histori...ation-company/) the unit scouted the Bensheim site for a cemetery in late March and moved to Bensheim from St. Avold, France on 1 April 1945.

I think it is most likely that the Piper Cub crew investigated the crash and found Lt. Sodermark dead or dying and that he was likely recovered later by a team from the 46th QM Graves Registration Co. and temporarily interred at Bensheim before being moved to St. Avold and ultimately repatriated to the U.S. At his family's request in 1948.

Best regards,
Paul

Re: P-51 loss on 2 April 1945
 

Damn you Alex, you noticed I didn't have my glasses on and I was tired :) yes, you have it right!

Danny

Re: P-51 loss on 2 April 1945
 

Alex, you have IDPF mail!

Re: P-51 loss on 2 April 1945
 

Hello Danny,

E-Post arrived.
Many thanks, will read it soon.

Happy Easter
Alex

Re: P-51 loss on 2 April 1945
 

Hello, Danny sent me the IPDF too (thanks again), and by reading it I doubt that Lt Sodermarck was the man involved in this case.

The initial burial report said that Lt Sodermack was buried on 9 April 1945, and died on 31 March 1945. If American soldiers had came to the crash place the day he crashed, as in the German website story, I doubt the body would have been left 8 days without burial, and the death date would have been known.

By the way the death cause is listed as "Head crushed, FCC right leg". Anyone has an idea what FCC means in this case ?

Re: P-51 loss on 2 April 1945
 

My estimate for FCC: Fracture, Complete, Comminuted.


Regards,

Leendert

Re: P-51 loss on 2 April 1945
 

Peter is correct about the 11/26/44 photo in the link of theCrash landing damage photo with Ceglarski at Steeple Morden.

Alfred - it could have been repaired but -

YF-D started life in the 358FS, then assigned to E Flight 358FS/2SF. It was damaged with Ceglarski at controls following a belly landing at Steeple Morden on November 26, 1944. On January 16, 1945 it C/L with Castleberry on the continent. Castelberry was not hurt but YF-D was seriously damaged and I think written off.

If repaired it would have returned most likely to another Group as it would have only remained in service with the 355th if flown back to Steeple Morden within several days

Re: P-51 loss on 2 April 1945
 

Hello,

Have looked through the lists of MIA's still not yet recovered for the 2nd April 1945 and found two P38's( 1 14FG, 1 82FG ), five P51's ( 2x Austria, I China, 1 Hungary 1 North Sea ?) and five P47's ( 3x 27FG, 1 79FG, 1 86 FG), only one P51 pilot seems to be anywhere near.

HASSELL, Edward M - 814685 - 2Lt - P-51 - 44-13814, 364FG/385FS. MACR 13965.

Thing is he was reported to have turned back but had gone into the sea, search only found oil slick though, also I do not think that he would have reached so far inland when returning over the Continent but just maybe if out of fuel and in a long glide ?? Thoughts on this please ?

Alex

Re: P-51 loss on 2 April 1945
 

Hello,
Another side to this story may just be that the witnesses at the time just got it wrong ?
I would expect however that after so long at war with the UK they would know the difference between the markings of the RAF and the "Star & bar" of the US forces.
But anything is possible, so here are some RAF losses around the time in question.
Typhoon losses -
01/04/1945
137 Sqn - EK128, force landed NW of Rheine near Lingen, pilot safe.
137 Sqn - RB193, s/d by flak E of Múnster, pilot killed.
174 Sqn - RB396, Flak, force landed NE of Denekamp, pilot safe.
181 Sqn - MN819, Flak, force landed E of Nordhorn, pilot evaded.
183 Sqn - DN248, Flak, s/d Hardenburg, pilot killed.
183 Sqn - MN419, dbr, SoC 12/06/45.
183 Sqn - SW476, Last seen E of Zutphen, pilot pow.
193 Sqn - RB373, Flak NE of Almelo, pilot pow.
247 Sqn - SW408, Flak, NW of Ensberen, pilot baled, evaded.
247 Sqn - SW425, Flak, force landed near Meppen, pilot pow.
266 Sqn - PD473, Flak over Lonneker, pilot killed.
02/04/1945
198 Sqn - one a/c Cat E.
439 (RCAF) Sqn - MN581, Flak ? force landed 9m N of Nordhorn, pilot pow.
03/04/1945
174 Sqn - RB487, Crashed in bad weather 6m W of Rheine, Rhodesian SAAF pilot killed.

Tempest Losses -
02/04/1945
3 Sqn - NV777, Cat E.
80 Sqn - NV982, Flak Rheine-Hannover area, pilot killed.
80 Sqn - SN139, Last seen E of Friesoythe, pilot Shot while pow.
03/04/1945
56 Sqn - EJ526, engine trouble, crashed S of Diepholz, pilot evaded.
56 Sqn - NV728, engine failure, force landed E of Friesoythe, pilot safe.
274 Sqn - NV990, engine failure, force landed SW of Hengelo, pilot safe.

Refs were AB RAF serial number series and Fighter Command War Diaries and Franks RAF Fighter Command Losses vol 3.

RAF Mustang Losses (Germany) -
29/03/1945
154 Sqn - KH697, (44-11400) pilot killed, MIA.
04/04/1945
165 Sqn - KH504. (44-10867) pilot killed(?), Bellylanded 29m West of Wiesbaden.

Alex