Bf-109 Downed 17-12-44
 

All:

Attached is a gun camera still of the final moments of a Bf-109 downed by Lt. George Bauer of the 397th FS on 17 December 1944 near Prum, Germany.

On 17 December 1944, the 397th FS was bounced by 22 FW-190s and 15 Bf-109s while on a ground attack mission. In the engagement, Lt. William Kerr earned a Distinguished Service Cross for downing two FW-190s, two Bf-109s and a scoring a probable on a third Bf-109. The 397th FS lost Lt. Frederick C. Stoll in the engagement (see MACR 11002).

It looks to me like this is a JG 4 machine based on the black-white-black tail band. I can't quite make out any Gruppe marking, although I seem to faintly discern some type of bar/wavy bar marking over the tail band.

I'd appreciate any help identifying this machine and its pilot.

By way of attribution, the attached photo is from the USAAF WWII photos database on Fold3 (NARA Ref. No. 342-FH-3A18037-60289AC).

As always, thanks in advance for any help.

Best regards,
Paul Dame

Re: Bf-109 Downed 17-12-44
 

JG 4 losses were:
I Gruppe:
Lt Otto Brindlinger MIA Bf109G-14 WNr 462791, Gelbe 15+ 100%
Lt Heinz Krause WIA Bf109G-14 WNr 464171, 100%

III Gruppe:
Uffz Walter Ziegler MIA Bf109G-14 WNr 462921, Blue 4+ 100%
Uffz Heinz Gras MIA Bf109K-4 WNr 330318 Weisse 2+ 100%
Uffz Gerhard Walther MIA Bf109K-4 WNr 330347 Schwarze 2+ 100%

IV Gruppe:
Bf109G-10 WNr 490394 but I have no reason or action associated with this loss.

Re: Bf-109 Downed 17-12-44
 

@ to the 109 Experten : Is it possible to narrow to the version according the tail-wheel?

ClinA-78

Re: Bf-109 Downed 17-12-44
 

Not really Clin. From what we see of the airframe, this is definitely a Bf 109 G-14, with small engine and wing bulges, stocked up tailplane and Erla Haube. All those features do fit the G-14 type.

According to what is seen on the pictures, I./JG 4 seems the most probable unit. We might this see either W.Nr. 462791 or 464171...

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bf-109 Downed 17-12-44
 

Ltn. Otto Brindlinger shoot down near Trier, KIA.

Ltn. Heinz Krause, shoot down near Traben-Trabach, FSA, until end of war in different hospitals.

So it seems to me, that the Bf 109 was fom III./Gruppe.
h.

Re: Bf-109 Downed 17-12-44
 

Hello ClinA-78,

being no Bf109 experte at all, nevertheless:

K4s can be sorted out as they had fully retractable and covered tail-wheels.

BTW: IV Gruppe lost three Bf109s that day, two G10 and one G14/AS

HTH

Carl

Re: Bf-109 Downed 17-12-44
 

Paul,

the I./JG 4 could be left aside, because they were in combat with a P-38 formation some 50 to 70km southeast of Prüm.

Over the area around Prüm, the so called "Schnee Eifel" III. and IV./JG 4 lost together 10 Bf 109 during that dogfight. The losses listed in post #2 are only those, where the pilot was effected.

Re: Bf-109 Downed 17-12-44
 

?? I didn't know/remember I removed ALL my attachments ???
...

Hi Gents,

since II./JG4 is not in .. I do suggest IV./JG4.

Re: Bf-109 Downed 17-12-44
 

... And among the pilots who are not in the list above, who were not "effected" and who fought against P-47s of 397th FS I have:

15./JG4 Heinrichs, Uffz. Oskar, MIA (oups) flying a Bf109G-10 WNr.490694, 100%
13./JG4 Oberkampf, Uffz. Adolf, Injured -FSA, flying a Bf109G-14/ASM WNr.782288, 100%
15./JG4 Schmidt, Ltn. Lothar, WIA, G?, FSA .. but cause unknown in fact.

I'm sure the list is not complete.

Re: Bf-109 Downed 17-12-44
 

Thanks for the precisions, Carl and Merlin. Any existing loss list for III. and IV. Gruppe ?

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bf-109 Downed 17-12-44
 

The list I have shows Bf109 G-14 13/JG4 white10 82288 fell at Blankenrate (Blankenrath?) Uffz Adolf Oberkampf baled out wounded, and Bf109 G-10 15/JG4 yellow12 490694 fell at Schee-Eifel (Murlenbach from another source S/E of Prum) Uffz Oskar Heinrichs + fell in combat engaging 20 P-47s. the list also shows an Uffz Anton Brantner killed over the Eifel 17.12.44 with no aircraft shown and JG 4 with a question mark.

Re: Bf-109 Downed 17-12-44
 

I just discover your post, Franck! Many thanks! Uffz Oberkampf seems to be a prime candidate indeed.

Re: Bf-109 Downed 17-12-44
 

Anton Brantner was a member of 8./JG 2, he was shot down near Koblenz that day.

Re: Bf-109 Downed 17-12-44
 

Thanks merlin,

Regards
Brian Bines

Re: Bf-109 Downed 17-12-44
 

Just a query on post 9 I thought an Uffz Lothar Schmidt of 5/JG4 was taken pow on the Bodenplatte attack, same man ?

Re: Bf-109 Downed 17-12-44
 

Good evening Paul !

On my opinion, led by my former researches, databases, eyewhitnes-statements and crash locations, 397th FS was at about noon on the way to support 106th (US) Infantry Division at the Schnee-Eifel area north of Prüm, which was in serious trouble due to the Ardennes campaign this day.

On their way, they met the FW 190 and Bf 109 of II./ and IV./JG 4 over the general area of Prüm at about 11:50-12:15 hrs this sunday.

In the then ensuing dogfight, II./JG 4 (FW 190) lost:
- Lt. Lehmann, 6. Staffel, crashed near Steinborn, about 20 km S/E of Prüm
- Fw. Lippold, 6. Staffel, crashed near Mehren, about 33 km E of Prüm (confirmed by local reports, which give the exact crash location and the dog-tag #)
- Uffz. Hetterich, 7. Staffel, crashed near Kopp, 13 km ESE of Prüm

IV./JG 4 (Bf 109)lost:
- Uffz. Oskar Heinrichs, crashed at Mürlenbach, about 15 km SE of Prüm
- Uffz. Johann Beck, probable crash-location at Hinterhausen, about 13 km E of Prüm
- no name, but also wounded in this dogfight,but presumeasly no crash in the area

The list fits to the report of Fähnrich Lachmann, 16./JG 4, who claims a P-47 as destroyed. The a/c of 2nd Lt Frederick C. Stoll was hit, the pilot bailed out and the a/c crashed near Kopp at local district "Mäuseberg". MACR # 11002 hrs gives as lost time 11:50 hrs and the local German report gives as finding
time 12:30 hrs.

My guess of the request is as follows:

The fotos of the IV./JG 4 Bf-109 are:
- Uffz. Heinrichs, at MÜRLENBACH
- Uffz. Beck, somewhere near HINTERHAUSEN
- unknown, but in the area

Horst Weber

Re: Bf-109 Downed 17-12-44
 

Horst,

Uffz. Johann Beck did not participate to this mission, he already became POW on 3.Dec.44 near Stolberg.

Re: Bf-109 Downed 17-12-44
 

Thank You Merlin !

Well, this was pecilwritten in my database. Sorry about it.

Horst Weber

Re: Bf-109 Downed 17-12-44
 

All:

As always, thanks so much for taking time to reply. I'm continually amazed by the breadth and depth of the expertise shared in this forum.

By way of confession, had I been more diligent last night I would have seen that Horst had already provided the answer to my basic question about whether this was a IV./JG 4 machine almost a decade ago when he corresponded with Tim Grace who was researching his comprehensive history of the 368th Fighter Group.

Interestingly, in MACR 11002, Stoll’s wingman Lt. Donald N. Evans reports that Stoll was shot down following a head-on pass in which both Stoll and his opponent scored hits. Evans’ report only refers to FW-190s. This presents an interesting question as my understanding is that Fhr. Lachmann was a pilot of 16/JG 4 who would thus have been piloting a Bf 109.

If the machine that shot down Stoll was instead an FW-190 from II./JG 4 and was simultaneously shot down by Stoll, it could be that this machine might have been the extra FW-190 lost by II Gruppe but not claimed by either Kerr (2xFW-190 & 2xBf 109) or Bauer (1xBf109).

Thanks again for all your replies!

Best regards,
Paul

Re: Bf-109 Downed 17-12-44
 

Paul !

You'll find this contradiction of Bf 109/FW 190 as opponent this days several times.

In the time-frame of 17th December to 27th December 1944, the "Jäger"-units in the West were at full strenght to support the Ardennes. Several Jagdgeschwader had a mix of Bf 109 and FW 190, but only on Gruppen level.

The same misorientation comes at December 26th, 1944, when 405th FG, 510th FS reports at 14:30 hrs a dogfight in the Bitburg area. This dogfight took place and two bombs exploded in my neigbourhood. But no FW 190 was the oponent, but Bf 109 of JG 27. Two Bf 109 crashed at Meckel (one into a house admidst the village and another out of town in the fields) and one in Metterich close to Bitburg.

Horst Weber