Captured Fw190 photo
 

Hello! Please help to identify this Fw190 variant. To me this plane looks like D-9, is this correct?
What is designation of the horizontal bar highlighted by red circle?

Thanks in advance!


http://www.photo-war.com/wa/190d9.jpg

Best regards,
Alexander

Re: Captured Fw190 photo
 

Alexander: no photo

Re: Captured Fw190 photo
 

Hello John! An issue has been fixed. Here it is!

Best regards,
Alexander

Re: Captured Fw190 photo
 

The bar means the II Gruppe of the assigned Geschwader, at this stage of the war the II Gruppe included 5, 6, 7 and 8 Stafflen.

Re: Captured Fw190 photo
 

Thanks john! Is this actually D-9 variant in this photo?

Re: Captured Fw190 photo
 

Yes, it is a D-9....and a very interesting one....any idea where thispictures was taken? Could be a II./JG 6 a/c....need to look at it more carefull...

Thanks,

John

Re: Captured Fw190 photo
 

I guess that photo was made at the city of Halle.

P.S. Fragment with some inscriptions on a chassis lid.

http://www.photo-war.com/enlarge/chassi.jpg

Is that a hole or a dot?
 

The fuselage lift tube hole is the small circular spot above the bar. The larger hole/dot is rather mysterious, is it not?

Re: Is that a hole or a dot?
 

Re: Captured Fw190 photo
 

IMHO could also easily be one of the several "dots" on the original negative which are spread throughout this fantastic photo or even maybe a bullet hole...

Re: Captured Fw190 photo
 

mmmmmm....Halle.....so "schwarze 3"...???

Re: Captured Fw190 photo
 

I'm thinking it's too big and perfect to be a defect in the negative, or to be a war wound.

Update: this circular access hatch (plug) opening is illustrated and documented in the 1:48 scale drawings (and the Focke Wulf repair manual drawings) in Focke Wulf Fw 190D No. 7 by AJ Press. It appears to provide hand and tool access to service the tail wheel actuating mechanism. (Although the oxygen cylinders are quite close to that opening as well. So it might be the access point to refill those cylinders.)

Time for the experts...

Re: Captured Fw190 photo
 

Hi John,

Could be. The national markings indicate a machine from the 600XXX werknummer series. Need to see if this image could be matched with photos of other similar kites.

Cheers,

David

Re: Captured Fw190 photo
 

<<Is there any interest in posting this photo over on the "Allied and Soviet Air Forces Forum" with a view towards identifying the Russians? At least one (the soldier seated on the tire) and maybe three of them are Order of the Red Star recipients.>>

Re: Captured Fw190 photo
 

Broncazonk, this photo came from a photo album 116th Guardian Fighter Aviation Regiment engineer (ground personnel), his name is known to me, he is Red Star order recipient as well.

A thought concerning image defect may be correct, several photos have such black spots of various shape. Note this photo from the same album, ‘black spot’ defect appears on soldier’s overseas cap.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...403#post200403

Re: Captured Fw190 photo
 

To photo war -Thank you for sharing this nice photo. This circular opening in extension plug is not photo defect, it is circular access hatch as Broncazonk right said in his comment. You can see this hatch on my attachement. source: Fw190D ersatzteil-liste 1944
I think, John Manrho is right with JG6 black 3. When I comparing mottling around vertical bar and camouflage style around balkenkreuze, I think this matched well with known photos of this a/c.
some photos to compare from expired ebay auctions
1. http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1037984
2. http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1038150
3. http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1038152
4. http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1038148
5. http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1038149

Re: Captured Fw190 photo
 

The WNr is not known to me - neither from the JaPo nor from the Crandall publications. Is it 601095?

Regards

Roland

Re: Captured Fw190 photo
 

John, Tomas

I think tou are right on the spot for identification of this plane. Not only the mottle camoufalge seems to match, even the bright spot under the forward windshield is present.

Fabulous picture...

Re: Captured Fw190 photo
 

To RolandF - According to Japo is WNr.600422 which comparing to known photos dont match. WNr.looks to be 601090 - combination of ebay photo http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1037984 and photo from Jerry Crandall Dora vol.1. p.258.
text from Japo source: Fw190D camouflage and markings part II, M.Deboeck, E.Larger, T.Poruba, JaPo, 2007, p.320

Re: Captured Fw190 photo
 

Thx Tomas, for the clarification. That's exactly the problem I had with the identification by JaPo in contrary to my own eyes.
So 600422 must have been a different Dora. Are there any photos with this WNr visible? (No access to my ref material at the very moment)

Regards

RolandF

Re: Captured Fw190 photo
 

I have the correct Wnr for schwarze 3 at home, will check later.

John

Re: Captured Fw190 photo
 

This one?
http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1037984

Re: Captured Fw190 photo
 

Re: Captured Fw190 photo
 

Re: Captured Fw190 photo
 

Werknummer is indeed 601090 for schwarze 3. If this picture is taken at Halle than we have no other candidate than this D-9

Missing ETC-501 rack?
 

Does the aircraft in the first photo (the one surrounded by Russians) have a center-line drop tank mount attached to it? I don't see it. The photos of Black 3 clearly show the aircraft with the ETC-501 attached. (I'm not saying that it's not there, I just can't make it out.)

Also, the aircraft with the Russians appears to be missing the rear fuel tank cover.

Bronc

P.S. That is an ETC-501, isn't it?

Re: Captured Fw190 photo
 

Yes Bronc it is there but hanging down from the rear. Beside the guy sitting on the tire.

Bingo
 

Yep. It's obvious once you point it out: hanging vertically, nose down, showing the right and inside of the mount. (I knew something was there, but I couldn't make it out.)

That means the front fuel tank (self-sealing bag) cover is missing from the belly of the aircraft. And the rear cover appears to be missing as well.

Not the same aircraft as Black 3?

Bronc

Re: Captured Fw190 photo
 

Gents,

No doubt that this machine is WNr.601095. What is interesting is that its fuselage cross is white as years ago it was assumed that only 601xxx series aircraft had it painted black. However, based on this and a few other rare images of other aircraft, it seems that the first group of machines up to ca. 601100 wore white ones. A second point would be that the painted over area underneath the '3' suggests its previous number was '17'. John, perhaps you might have this kite somewhere in your files under this older number.

Regarding its original identity as WNr.600422, I think it is based on the attached image. Note that it does look like a "22" is seen on the top of the fin, and with the presumed exclusive use of the white balkenkreuz for 600000 series aircraft, then I suppose it was natural to interpret the full werknummer as 600422.

Hope this helps,

Cheers,

David

The Russian D9 and Black 3 are NOT the same aircraft
 

The flare chute on the D9 with the Russians is highlighted by a circle of white. This feature is denoted by the Red A in the photograph. The flare chute on Black 3 is also visible, you can clearly see the circle, but it has NOT been highlighted in white, look below the Red A in that photo. And interestingly enough, the normal oval opening does not appear to be present on Black 3's flare chute, but it's obvious and distinct on the D9 that the Russians are sitting on.

The 232-liter fuel fill flap on the D9 with the Russians has also been highlighted with a white ring. This feature, denoted B, is NOT present on Black 3.

The canopy slide screw on the D9 with the Russians is unremarkable. (Denoted C ) But the canopy slide screw on Black 3 must have been repeatedly adjusted, note the bare metal on the head of the screw, and the wear mark (going to bare metal) immediately below it.

These are NOT the same aircraft.

Re: Captured Fw190 photo
 

To Broncazonk - check J.Crandall Dora vol.1 p.262, there is photo of black 3 with "silver circle" around flare hole - in fact, it is removed tape which cover this hole. Missing fuel fill cap - on same photo on p.262 is in open position nad you can see those as you wrote "highlighted with a white ring" in fact this is place which is not covered with colour. This features can not be taken as identifications points. It is better to compare camouflage points like mottling... which around rear part of the fuselage are the same, overpainted area aroun fuselage number is same as well, also camouflage of the root leading edge is same, no doubt it is same machine.
To Denoted C - this is most probably an imperfection on the photo(there is more light spots even on the ground...) and it is not visible on another photos of black 3.
To photo-war - is is posible to upload croped part(see enclosed croped image below) of the photo without your watermark? There should be hole - damage from shooting from some handgun.

Re: Captured Fw190 photo
 

Hello Tomas!

Here is a part you requested.

Best regards,
Alexander


http://www.photo-war.com/wa/cropped.jpg

Re: Captured Fw190 photo
 

Hello David, not sure why you list the Werknummer as 601095.....we have that Ebay picture of December 2014 which in my opinion shows 601090 which was also confirmed by the seller. Does anybody know who acquired that original picture back in December? Perhaps we can get a better scan.

Indeed the 600422 was basically an estimated guess by some years ago as the other images were not available yet.

About the repainting of schwarze 3. We have seen this feature on several a/c of I./JG 6 (many A-8's), but not so much on II./JG 6. The reasoning behind the repainting within I./JG 6 is pretty much clear to me, but schwarze 3 is unclear. Note that the II. Gruppe seems not repainted which leads me to the conclusion that this a/c either came from another unit or from I./JG 6 (which seems not logical).

Alexander, if your are willing to provide me with an high resolution scan of your picture from my planned JG 6 Unit History, then I would be most gratefull.

Cheers,

John

Re: Captured Fw190 photo
 

To photo-war - thank you. Now I see I am dumb, it is not hole from shooting but crank case breather outlet.

Re: Captured Fw190 photo
 

Thank you, Tomas, you must be correct. Another point of confirmation is what looks to be black smudges and vandalizing bullet holes in the center of the Balkenkreuz on the right rear fuselage that appear in all of the photos.

Does anyone know if American service personnel tried to repair, or scavenged parts from this aircraft prior to the arrival of the Russian army? I'm trying to understand why the ETC 501 and then both fuel tank covers were removed. It seems like a very random thing to do.

All my Best!

Robert

Re: Captured Fw190 photo
 

.. I'm fairly certain that the inscription on the rear of the vet's original print (at least the one in Jim Crow's collection) says 'blue 3' too !

Re: Captured Fw190 photo
 

Hello all,
This is indeed "Black 3" W.Nr. 601090. Note the yellow under cowling typical of Fieseler built Dora 9s.
Cheers, Jerry

Re: Captured Fw190 photo
 

I bought Vol. 1 of your D9 book because of this....

Bronc

Re: Captured Fw190 photo
 

Thank you very much, I hope you like it.
Cheers, Jerry

Re: Captured Fw190 photo
 

Hello,
I haven't seen the complete photo but I think you believe that one of the undeveloped spots is creating that "hole" - am I correct Ferdinando? As a person who "plays" with various film formats from 35mm to 8x10" I can tell you that I have such cases on my negatives too from time to time (especially when I am lazy) but those would be much sharper than the one on the last photo detail (check the one behind the soldier's head & you will understand what I mean) which does have same sharpness level to other details on the fuselage in the last photo & in perspective is perfectly matching the other markings. So I believe it was something definitely applied to the fuselage. I doubt it's a bullet hole since it's way too perfect in shape.
Best,
Miloš