Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

P-51 42-103351 of 2/Lt Raymond Mann was last seen between Budapest and Kecskemet, and P-51 43-24900 of 1/Lt Jack Houghton of 325.FG near Budapest, shortly after noon on 14 October 1944. Both men were later declared dead. Does anybody know the locations of their crashes.

Cheers,
Boris

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

42-103351 ('VF * O') was lost in the Kecskemét(?), 43-24900 in the Tárnok area (No.74, 'Hope IV'). I have no more details.
Gabor

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

Gabor,

Thanks a lot! Is this data confirmed from Hungarian sources or only from the MACR?

Boris

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

Boris,

Perhaps this link provides a lead? See http://www.armyairforces.com/Unk-Cap...t-m103531.aspx

Regards,

Leendert

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

Three were -
52FG - "VF-O" - 42-103351 - Mann +.
52FG - "QP-W" - 42-106816 - Leary pow.
325FG - "74" - 43-24900 - Houghton pow.( Not pow, FOD 15/10/45).

Alex

Ooops
Since found that 1Lt. Jack Houghton O-542201 MAACR 9193 was KIA.
Finding of Death date 15th October 1945, so not a POW.

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

Re Bell. Zagreb, Yugoslavia

Escort to Blechamer, engine cut at 24000 ft, b/o and landed 15-20miles NE of the city ( 10 miles NE of Cazin, Yugoslavia ), rescued by partisans.

MACR 9140
Time given as 1125, a/c name "Peggins" serial number 43-25073.
Witness statement by 2Lt. Charles H. Duke. Dated same day (14th).
"At 1110hrs, I was flying No.2 position in counter yellow flight , when I noticed that the No. 4 man in the flight , F/O Bell seemed to be in trouble; he seemed unable to keep up with the rest.
I tried to contact F/O Bell by radio, but my radio was out.
About this time (1115) Bell's engine stopped altogether and he started to glide. Our altitude at the time was 20,000 feet, at a point 80 miles inland in Yugoslavia.
At 10,000 feet, Bell released his canopy and at about 6,000 feet he jumped, he appeared to be very low, about 1,500 feet when his chute opened. He was only in the air for a few seconds, and landed in a forest. His chute could be plainly seen in the tree tops.
I was unable to see whether or not F/O Bell was injured, because he was obscured by the trees.
Signed by Charles H. Duke 2nd Lt, Air Corps.".

Note that there is no mention in the report of any sighting of enemy aircraft or of any combat which I would have expected if Bell had been shot down, but perhaps damaged in earlier combat before 1110 hrs ? so possible.

On return to the 100th Bell claimed destroyed, an FW190 on the 31st March 1945, his only claim ?

Alex

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

I gather you extracted your info from the Net / Trifold which is the MACR official
version. My info is from 332nd history book . Additionally the Russians seems to
confirm the same details . Check this just in case you can translate it :

http://airaces.narod.ru/all16/shadrin.htm

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

No, the Witness statement is from the MACR, available on the "Fold 3" site.
Other details are also avaiable on the www.
Can't say I know the Net/Trifold site you mention.
Will look at the link you kindly provided.
Thank you
Alex

PS

QUOTE -"October 14, 1944 117th Guards IAP was moved to the Yugoslav air station "Red Crkva", and on this day the event occurred, which until now have not been reported in Soviet military history. Captain GA Shadrin shot down an American plane! In the morning, he is paired with Lieutenant EI Gorshenin flew for exploration in the area of ​​Batajnica. There's railway station train pilots found the enemy and fired his cannon. Immediately after landing Shadrin ordered again rise into the air, and immediately fly to the town of Bela Crkva, where at an altitude of 10OO meters appeared unidentified aircraft - intelligence.
Shadrin went to take off, and it was quickly put things on the radio on the plane potential adversary who has already flown over the airfield at Bela Crkva and approached the airfield of the 117th Guards IAP. What a surprise it was the pilot when he approached the intelligence officer, identified in him an American fighter P-51 "Mustang" with the identification signs the US Air Force. Gennady reported this to the command division, followed by a team from the American force to land at our airport. Shadrin approached close to the "Mustang" and the evolution of the aircraft ordered to follow him, but he continued to fly as if nothing had happened.
Then Gennady gave warning of all the nose of "American", demonstrating the seriousness of their intentions. In response, the "Mustang" spun around and started to go south to climb. Report this Shadrin has received an order from the KP to give another warning of all. The captain went up, and then to dive again made friends with the "Mustang" and let the "road" next to it. But the American pilot again did not react. Then Shadrin Vitruka received from direct and unequivocal command: "Beat it! If you do not have shells, go to the ram".
Meanwhile, the "Mustang" was already 2500 meters and continued to climb. Shadrin had no choice but to press the trigger. He made the sighting of all the fuselage, but the scout continued to fly further. Then Gennady released another turn, and "Mustang" fell into a nosedive. Immediately he flew with a lantern, and the pilot fell out of the cab. It would seem that everything was "normal" and the Americans have nothing to fear, but somehow have downed pilot parachute did not open. Shadrin with a bitter sense of duty watched the falling figure, until it hit the ground ...
According to US data, we can assume that the victim Captain GA Shadrin became the P-51B-10 from the 100th Squadron, 322nd Fighter Group US Air Force, which in that day was missing over Yugoslavia. It was the "jubilee" 500th sortie Gennady Shadrin and his 14th official victory, which also was the last, the 124th victory of the 117th Guards IAP in the war."

The Russian story just does not fit.
As it tells of the American pilots chute not opening, in which case the pilot would have not survived. While it is a fact that Bell did and returned to his unit to score the victory I noted above in 1945.

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

Hello,
Looks like it may have been 1Lt. Jack Houghton O-542201 - FOD 15 October 1945.
MACR 9193.
Location some 16 miles SW of Budapest.
43-24900 "Hope IV" time on MACR 1210hrs.
Witness 2Lt. Robert R. Caudill statement -

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

Then again it may have been 2Lt Raymond Henry Mann, O-714483
MACR 9141 time on macr 1205 hrs.
Last known position: 4702N 1954E.
Date of death given as 14th October 44.
Witness Lt Col. Ralph James Watson statement flying low(50 or so feet) hit by flak or other ground fire - so again not shot down by fighter.

Only four P-51's and pilots - 1 POW, Leary; 1 evader Bell; 1 KIA Mann; 1 FOD Houghton.

Other fighters were two P-38's.
As for RAF, again Mosquito, Wellington were both twin motor, and a four motor Liberator.
Tony Woods list for the 14th also had a Russian Aerocobra ( an American a/c ).

Alex

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

For the RAF losses on October 13, 14, 1944 in Hungary:

D.H. Mosquito XVI., MM287, 680 PRU: at Orosztony, running in and burned in a haystack
Wellington X., MF469 'X', 40 Sq.: at Veszprémfajsz in the forest
Liberator VI., EW280 'T', 178 Sq.: Újdombóvár, at Alsóleperd-puszta (farm).

The soviet losses on October 14, 1944 in Hungary. All from 5 VA:

La-5FN, 192 IAP, S/N: 39212260 - crashed at airfield after mission
La-5FN, 192 IAP, S/N: 39212958 - dogfight in Sáránd area
IL-2m3, 568 ShAP, S/N: 1870680 - at Szápárfalu
Yak-9D, 85 GvIAP, S/N: 2015384 - at Gyula-SE

(No info on soviet P-39 loss!)
Gabor

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

I did not go into detail of an opened or unopened chute which obviously the
Russian pilot was wrong about , circumstances totally understandable
during WWII when lots of similar errors were accounted also to German
Axis and Allied pilots . What I meant is that the Russian story matches the
events described on 332nd FG history books and memoires.

WWII MACR's don't serve as final historical evidence,
as such the Russian story is correct. You can take it or leave it .

PS : Use as reference the incident dated 7.11.44
between Koldunov & wingmen versus Capt King &
wingmen over Yugo. Likewise also this repo filled by
the Russians was correct

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

4 La-5s of 5 VA, 192 IAP were escorting 6 IL-2s into the Sáránd (Hungary) area at 16:40 PM (Moscow time). When leaving the target, 2 Fw 190s attacked the Shturmoviks. A pair of La-5s immediately turned on the Fw 190s when suddenly another 6 Fw 190s joined the battle. La-5FN (S/N.: 39212958, engine no.: 8213717) was hit, ml.lt Федосеев Петр Петрович bailed out of his burning plane. 3 Fw 190s were also reported to be shot down. A second La-5FN crashlanded back at their airfield, probably due to severe combat damages received from the Fw 190s, but the pilot (Galkin) was OK.

Gabor

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

My two cents:

332.FG Mustang does not fit at all into the Shadrin account for simple reason that it crashed some 450 kilometers west of Bela Crkva and in full view of other pilots from the group, at early stage of the mission, en route to the target. I would really like to know how Bell evaded, with the help of Mihailović's Chetniks or Partisans. In mid-October 1944 the Chetniks were in full retreat to Bosnia and nowhere near Bela Crkva. There were some Chetnik units in the area of Cazin (which is in Western Bosnia), but I have many doubts that these were able to organize evasion of allied airmen as they were surrounded by Partisans - which were their main enemies, and Axis - with which they were quite friendly in this area.

When it comes to 325.FG and 52.FG, I could imagine a lone Mustang pilot with plane damaged by flak (Mann), or with engine trouble (Houghton) turning for home over Hungary, straying off course to the east, and reaching Bela Crkva. Remember that there were just a few landmarks for orientation both in Hungary and Vojvodina, which is in Northern Serbia, indeed the Danube would be the best one (and it passes close to the locations of the "last sightings" in Hungary and Bela Crkva).

Another possibility could be the following: US pilots were instructed at the time which parts of Yugoslavia were liberated and it is possible that the lone plane was trying to reach Soviet & Partisan lines south of Belgrade.

Another thing should also be taken into consideration and this it the location of the battle (Bela Crkva) and location of Shadrin's base (Crvena Crkva), and these two are 4 kilometers apart. I assume that the wreck could have been found easily, and possibly the body of the pilot. It is in a flat agricultural area, no hills, no mountains, no deep forests. It would help if we knew if remnants of Mann and Houghton were ever located by US grave search teams after the war, or if there were any reports of crashes in Hungary from local authorities.

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

2Lt. Raymond Henry Mann O-714483
5th FS, 52nd FG
is at rest at
Lorraine American Cemetery, St. avold, France.

see ABMC link -

http://www.abmc.gov/search-abmc-buri...0#.VVJ0BfCrHtF

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

1Lt. Jack (NMI) Houghton
O-542201
319th FS, 325th FG
Date of Death : 15-10-1945 ( this is 1 year plus 1 day re A finding of Death or FOD).
He is Memorialized on
The Tablet of the Missing,
Sicily-Rome American Cemetery,
Nettuno, Italy.

http://www.abmc.gov/search-abmc-buri...4#.VVJ3GfCrHtE

He is still missing, see -
http://www.dpaa.mil/OurMissing/World...spx?br=aaf&a=h

Alex

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

From Tony Wood's lists.

14.10.44 Ltn. Hermann Schleinhege II./JG 54 Airacobra �� 17 811: at 2.300 m. 14.07 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. -

Also but not of use here was a claimed Soviet Boston III
14.10.44 Ltn. Peter Kalden 13./JG 51 Boston III �� 13 722: at 3.000 m. 11.14 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. 617

Alex

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

Hi Alex,

Schleinhege's claim was in Courland, Latvia, while Kalden's was near Warsaw.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

Regarding your two cents , if you determined tht 177 GvIAP was located on
Oct 14,44 South West and close to the Romanian border at Crvena Crkva
and Lt.Houghton last MACR known position was 15 miles SW of Budapest while Bell and as
you stated was 450 Km apart ( pse state the source of your info ) , that would narrow down
your search, though 15 miles SW of Budapest wasn't that close to Shadrin's unit either.

However on The American Beagle Squadron, 52nd FG in WWII ,
The 15th AF against the Axis, Checker Tail Clan , Stalin's Eagles first edition
332nd FG in WWII and 15th AF in WWII history books the
details are conflicting one an other and I'll still stick by Bell's
theory unless relevant facts can be brought up and prove otherwise.

While is worthwhile researching further, I am lacking
the time for deeper study neither the subject is on my
area of research .

A final note as into the Chetniks, suggest you read
a book callled "The Forgotten 500 " is all in there.

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

F/O Bell was seen to bail out by 2/Lt Duke. Both 2/Lt Mann and 1/Lt Houghton were last seen in flight near Budapest, but no one from their units saw them actually crash. Please take look at the map and all locations in question.

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

I fully agree with your observation that locations from MACR's should not be counted as final historic evidence. I know for instances when the reported and actual crash locations were hundreds of kilometers apart and when the last sighting of a plane was reported over Austria and the plane crashed in Albania.

In 14 October 1944 case, we know that Mustang groups started from area of Foggia and Termoli in Italy (52.FG from Madna, 325.FG from Lesina and 332.FG from Ramitelli).

We know that 52.FG was supposed to escort B-24's of 55.BW to Blechhammer (today Blachownia Slazka), but when the bombers aborted, received instructions to fly a sweep in the area of Balaton lake in Hungary and in this rough area Leary was shot down and became POW and Mann was last sighted.

We know that 325.FG was escorting B-17's of 5.BW on a raid against Blechhammer. They were supposed to take over the bombers on retour leg west of Budapest. Before they did that, Houghton aborted and was last seen.

We know that 332.FG was escorting B-24's of 49.BW and 304.BW on a raid agaiinst Odertal. First leg of the 332.FG journey was Ramitelli - Zagreb. If you pull a line between these two location, on Google map for example, you will find that it passes closely to Cazin, roughly the area where Bell bailed out. If you look at the same map where Bela Crkva is, you will see that there is almost no chance that the group could have strayed so much off course to get over there. If you pull a line between Lesina or Madna, Budapest and Bela Crkva, and when you add a Danube as an landmark between Budapest and Bela Crkva you will see that a Mustang could have veered off course and come above Bela Crkva, especially if it was trying to reach Soviet lines in the southeast.

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

Your observations are correct and I appreciate your good knowledge
of the 15th Air Force operations in WWII. If the events evolved as you described
then by no means Bell would have met Shadrin , this as much as into
the fixed hinds . Though the variable hinds remain and persist and the case
remains pure speculations . Here are the variables ;

1. The last known position of Lt.Houghton the single one who may
come in question and as correctly assumed by Alex Smart was 15 miles SW of
Budapest , this is the aprox place he either crashed or bailed out. According
various Russian material at my end on Oct 14,44 Shadrin and his wingmen
were by no means near Budapest area, in addition the distance between BK
and Budapest plotting a direct air line between both locations would be some
400 Km or more. Only from Oct 27, 44 and on the 177 GvIAP was operating over
Balaton and moved its base near Balaton by no means ready to operate near or over
Budapest area .

2. Unless the Russian history is wrong and Shadrin unit may have been closer
to Budapest which at this point I fully exclude ,I don't see it working because
their ground controllers won't scramble their fighters 400 Km's away.

3. Why would the Russian archives and historians still cite Bell rather an other
pilot or an other FG ? why on various 332nd memoires same rumours
exist ?

4. If Shadrin & wingmen and as you stated earlier on received a QDM to the *enemy"fighters
( no radar vectoring at that time ) then the Soviet GCA controllers would have later on
discussed the details with the Americans such as on similar incidents between
Capt King and Koldunov in 1944 and Koshedub versus 44-73144 later on in 1945
the 332nd FG would have been excluded .

5. From 1946 through 1949 US Graves Commission was very active in the Balkans
searching for remains and plotting crash sites , interviewing whitnesses etc ,why
then the remains of Lt.Houghton's aircraft and his body were never found ? This
unless the P-51 exploded in mid air something which sofar neither Shadrin ,US
sources nor ground German sources & local whitnesses ever reported.

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

For question No.1, I wish I knew, but, that's one of the purposes of this forum, to try to find some answers :)

For question No.2, 117.GvIAP was at Crvena Crkva at the time for sure.

For question No.3 I think that at one point someone (possibly Igor Seidov) connected Bell and Shadrin, it was published and the story got a hold.

For question No.4 I can only assume, since general Andey Vitruk and his staff knew well what happened, and no one on US side knew anything about it, they decided to keep silent and it was like it until Shadrin told his wife about it and she said that to Igor Seidov, who was first to publish this story (as far as I know). Speaking of the 7 November 1944 incident over Niš, Red Army suffered huge casualties at the hands of 82.FG and it is understandable why the Soviets raised the matter so high.

For question No.5, they simply might have not known that they should have looked for Houghton near Bela Crkva. They interviewed thoroughly the locals, but the 14 October 1944 incident was a Soviet matter. At the time, Yugoslav (Partisan) authorities in the area were almost non-existent and the Red Army was out of any Yugoslav jurisdiction anyway. Maybe it is connected with question No.4 and all the evidence could have been removed.

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

Lt.Houghton was lost near Budapest area but not 400 Km's or more
away near Romanian border , on Oct 14,44 there were no Russian
troops near Budapest to hide evidences related to the crash site but
German troops which in the post WWII era were more
than happy to help the US Armed Forces Europe, neither VVS ground
controllers would scramble their fighters 400 km away just because
theere were some sentiments around. As such the whole remains pure
speculation and Bell theory persists with a worse case scenario that
Shadrin lied ,didn't shoot anyone down but a bird of some kind he
may have dreamt of whle resting between the flights.

I don't see any connection between Oct 14 and Nov 7, totally different
circumstances .

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

Please note that no one saw Houghton crash near Budapest. He was last sighted near Budapest. And the incident over Niš occured threee weeks later.

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

No, read again my last post , the 325th pilot never reached near
Romanian border 400 Km away , nor Shadrin flew near Budapest
or even half way to Budapest on that day because his unit was
active within the airfield perimeter, no matter how you turn it
neither I put Nis into any context.

Please don't tell me he put the P-51 on autopilot for such distance
or experienced loss of consciousness after the event described on
the MACR for more than 400 Km's to just be shot down by Shadrin
about 40 minutes to an hour later.

Sorry I don't buy such arguments .

PS : I am out of this topic unless there will be
real relevant arguments

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

Hello,
OK, so I offer the following.
I do not know what difference the date/time frame in the area may have been.
But four P51's were lost on the 13th.
three pow's and one kia.
The KIA was -
332ndFG - 43-24905 - 1Lt. Walter D. Westmoreland (MACR 9087 ).
Witness Capt. Melvin T. Jackson.
Last known position - 47deg 13min North by 17deg 27min East.
Place-names on map = Papa, Celldomolk and Veszprem.
Detail of statement They had just finished strafing an airdrome, Westmorelands a/c was lagging in formation then began a steep dive. White smoke from plane. It looked like it was going to make a forced landing but at about 10 feet from the ground hit a tree, flipped over onto its back, skidded for about 100 yards. It lay on its back with one wing broken off.

The next Loss was I believe on the 21st.
Alex

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

15th Air Force, 325th Fighter Group, 318th Fighter Squadron North American, P-51, C-7 42-103562 was lost over Hungary 1944-12-1
See: http://www.lostaircraft.com/database...wentry&e=25542

Very little other info there.
- If someone could please edit the LostAircraft Loss Record, that would be appreciated.

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

Lt Westmoreland mmeorial
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg...346317&df=all&

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

Related link
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...959#post200959

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

To round out, Bell evader - returned to his unit in December 44.
Thanks to help from the partisans and Royal Navy.
Namely HMS Colombo and HMS Brocklesby (22nd Nov 44 for Ancona, Italy).

Details from Escape & Evasion report dated ( IIRC) 24th Nov 44.

"On 14th Oct 44 landed approximately 15/20 miles N E of Zagreb (45deg 52min N)(16deg 01min E).
After landing walked in a southerly direction till nightfall and slept in woods.
On 15th Oct 44 met friendly Yugoslav farmer who called the Partisians.They took Bell to Cetingrad, spent night at Partisian HQ.
The following morning taken by motor vehicle to Topusko.
On 17th Oct 44 hitch-hiked to a British Mission.
On 18th Oct due to overcrowding he was again moved to a Yugoslav family on the outskirts of the town.
Where he stayed untill
19th Nov 44 when along with many others including British, French and US "troops" was taken by truck to small American Mission where they slept. Planes were supposed to pick them up but bad weather put a stop to that.
Again Bell was moved by truck on the
20th Nov 44 to Obrovac 44 where Dalmatian's gave food and sleeping space.
On 21st Nov 44 left Obrovac for Zara. Ustaches had taken over the road so driver refused to return to Obrovac. Spent night on HMS Colombo.
22nd Nov 44 boarded HMS Brocklesby and sailed for Ancona, Italy".

Alex

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

I think it's a steep further, but what is the E & E report
but relevantly which partisans those of Tito or those
of Mihailovic ? based on which I may plot an aproximate
bail out coordinate.

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

Thanks to Alex it is obvious that loss of 332.FG Mustang has nothing to do with Shadrin's claim and that it occurred as described in the MACR. Mihailović's men were Chetniks and not Partisans and I haven't seen that they were ever named Partisans, in any E&E report. Distance from where Bell bailed out to Bela Crkva is some 460 kilometers east-southeast.

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

So we are back to post five where Boris had -
"Gennadiy Shadrin of 117.GvIAP near Bela Crkva, east of Belgrade, Yugoslavia, on 14 October. Whilst returning from a patrol, he was vectored towards an unknown plane flying at altitude of 3.000 meters. He quickly caught up with it and recognized a Mustang with USAAF markings. The Soviet ground control suspected that the aircraft was recconoitering their positions and instructed him to force it to land. Despite some hand signs, wing waving and warning shots, American pilot did not respond and tried to flee in southern direction. It was then that commander of 10.GvShAD gen.maj. Andrej Vitruk ordered Shadrin to shot him down, which he did. American pilot bailed out, but his parachute failed to open and he fell near Bela Crkva ".

Followed by - " In order to hush up the incident, a Bf 109 was claimed instead and all involved ordered to keep quiet ".

The date given seems to be certain - 14th October 1944 - So it can only be perhaps a miss identification of an aircraft by the "victor" or perhaps the date is incorrect ?

From all input in this thread it looks very much like it could not be any of the P-51's lost on the date given, One pilot(Bell) evaded, one pilot( Leary ) was POW while the two killed( Mann and Houghton ) are dismissed.
In post seven we are offered - "while debfriefed by Intel in Bari he gave out questionable grounds as into the event ".
I have read it and see nothing questionable within it ?
Perhaps this can be expanded by the inclusion of the debrief into this thread ?

I offered the earlier date of 13th but that fatality ( Westmoreland ) was also excluded.

This leads me to the conclusion that this was either a friendly fire event or the pilot exaggerated his claims this is not unknown and has been done by others either through deliberate act or excitement of the moment.

Then there is the chance that the "facts" as known do not fit the "story" being told. This has come up in other threads from time to time as well.

Whatever the case it would be good to solve just who this killed P-51 pilot was.

Maybe we should go back to the start and search out those Bf109 losses and even Russian Lag and Yak losses for the date given in the area, even local aircraft under training if any ?
As the ID was for a "P-51 who's pilot baled out, chute failed, pilot killed " - we can be sure it is a single engined, single crewed aircraft - yes ?

All the very best
Alex

Re: Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944
 

We gave our best but it seems we won't be able to solve this one out with 100% certainty :)

The date 14 October 1944 can be found in the excellent book of Mikhail Bykov about Soviet aces and seeing the sources he used on the end of the book, I have no doubt that the date is the right one.

I still think that Houghton could be the only possible candidate. He is still missing and we don't know where he crashed. Mann is buried in France. If he was found in Yugoslavia, he would have been probably buried in Belgrade War Cemetry. However, he could have been buried in Budapest War Cemetry as well?! It would be very helpful if we would see the data about his recovery and burial post war.

It is possible that Shadrin overestimated the success of his attack, but still, the whole event occurred very close to Soviet base, so it wouldn't have been hard to find the wreckage and confirm the claim, and its nationality.

There was only one Bf 109 unit operating in the area, namely 3./NAGr.2 and it did lose an Bf109G-8 to enemy action during October 1944, but when and where I don't know. An "recce Bf 109G-6" was reputedly forced to land at Gabrovnica airfield in Bulgaria by 31.IAP on 3 October (according to memoirs of Mikhail Tsykin) or 10 October (according to memoirs of Nikolai Skoromochov) and the pilot who forced it down was Tsykin. interestingly enough, Bykov does not list this claim in his book, in Tsykin biography.

Cheers,
Boris