Avias B534 with 1. and 2./JG 70?
 

Dear All,

I have a query on the above subject. The references are mentioned below.

Bob, Trautloft and Held, JG 54: A Photographic History of the Grünherzjäger, a caption on page 54 reads as follows: Herzogenaurach near Nuremberg. The Franconian area was home to the I./JG 70, which became I./JG 54 on 15 September 1939. During the early summer the Gruppe was given task of evaluating Czech-designed Avia planes. The Bf 109 D-1 was also put through its paces by the unit. Preview of the book with the relevant page can be found here http://www.slideshare.net/Wolfsangel...ruenherzjaeger

Another authoritative Reference: Prien, Stemmer and others: Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934-1945, Teil 1, Jagdgeschwader 70, pages 256 and 257, does not mention this detail (i.e., the presence of the Avia B534 aircraft with the I./JG 70). Arguably, not every detail can be covered in the concise reference.

After the exhaustive introduction, I will try to get to the point. Can the above reference to the I./JG 70 evaluating the Avia B534 aircraft be found elsewhere in the literature?

Regards,
Sinisa

Re: Avias B534 with 1. and 2./JG 70?
 

To try and answer my own query... It can. In John Weal's book Jagdgeschwader 54 "Grünherz", here http://www.amazon.com/Jagdgeschwader.../dp/1841762865, on page 15: "...Currently based alongside the Bf 109 Ds of 1. and 2./JG 70 at Herzogenaurach were a clutch of more unusual machines. When Germany marched into what remained of Czechoslovakia in March 1939 ... she had automatically come into possession of a considerable amount of military hardware.

Among the booty were many of the Avia B 534 fighters of the ex-Czechoslovak Air Force. Like the Fiats of Austria's JaGeschw II before them, the Avia biplanes were quickly repainted in Luftwaffe markings. Courses were duly set up to familiarise German pilots and ground-crews with these machines. And it was the Avia Lehrgang at Herzogenaurach which was used to form a brand new 3./JG 70..."

Re: Avias B534 with 1. and 2./JG 70?
 

I have also checked the "sister" unit, the I./JG 71, in this respect. In the aforementioned reference Jagdfliegerverbände (JVE) der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934-1945, Teil 1, pages 258 – 260, the authors dealt with Jagdgeschwader 71. I gleaned the following:

1. The formation of both Staffeln of JG 71 followed from the elements of I./JG 51 at Schleissheim, where both Staffeln were equipped with the Bf 109 D-l aircraft.
2. At the end of July followed the move of both Staffeln to Bad Aibling to I./JG 51, to which they were subordinated as well.
3. At Bad Aibling at that point in time there was an ongoing course (i.e., Lehrgang) for the reserve fighter pilots led by Maj. Kramer; thereby it was managed as a newly assembled Staffel, which was equipped with the Avia B534 aircraft taken over from the former Czech air force, which however were at once handed over (i.e., presumably to 1./JG 71?).
4. For the fliers training stood one with the Bf 109 D-1 aircraft equipped Staffel under Lt. Nagler; as far as it is known, this Staffel never received an official designation, and was mentioned in records only as Reservestaffel/JG 71.
5. On 26 August 1939 moved three Staffeln in the course of the general mobilization to Fürstenfeldbruck airbase, to undertake the fighter protection over München.
6. On 29 August 1939 the 1./JG 71 moved from Fürstenfeldbruck further to Böblingen.
7. The "I./JG 71" Staffeln strength report of 31 August 1939 gives 34 Bf 109 D-1

From the above, providing that both 1. and 2./JG 71 were initially equipped with the Bf 109 D-1 aircraft, it is hard for me to see the need for the obsolescent Avias to be handed to the 1./JG 71. Furthermore, it is perhaps strange that an officially formed Staffel (i.e., 1./JG 71) had to handle the Avia B534 aircraft, while at the same time an unofficial Staffel (i.e., Reservestaffel/JG 71) was equipped with the Bf 109 D-1 aircraft.

What also intrigues me is the series of photographs in the JVE der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934-1945, Teil 2, II./Jagdgeschwader 52, pages 322 and 323, photos 381 – 384 featuring the Staffel’s Avia B534 aircraft with the 1./JG 71 (early) winged devil emblem and caption "... some pilots of 1./JG 71 at "readiness" at Bad Aibling in the beginning of September 1939..", while at that time they were already supposed to be based at Böblingen (i.e., from 29 August 1939), and definitely equipped with the Bf 109 D-1 aircraft, as per the above discussion.
-----------------
From the above discussion in these three posts, the possibilities, as I see them, are as follows:
1. Both I./JG 70 and I./JG 71 had Avia Lehrgang (course) associated with it, with a complement of the various models of the Avia B534 aircraft, or
2. Only I./JG 71 had the Avia B534 aircraft, or
3. Only I./JG 70 had the Avia B534 aircraft.

I understand that this might not be the most interesting topic to discuss, but nevertheless I hope that some experts might find the time to comment, and clarify the matter. Or otherwise, if they see no ambiguity in the quoted references, just simply state so.

Re: Avias B534 with 1. and 2./JG 70?
 

Sinisa

According to Czeck sources both 3./JG 70 and 3./JG 71 operated the Avias for a short time in late 1939 before re-equipping with the Bf 109.

Since the Luftwaffe was still expanding at the time, I have always assumed the use of the Avias in "frontline" units (and these two units were in fact in the rear) was a stop gap measure before they got their intended 109s.

I can't believe that the Luftwaffe had any intention of using the Avias on operations, unless forced to do so by enemy attacks. One source specifically says the Avias were intended to be used in the case of night attacks. The evaluation made by these two units was no doubt to ensure the type could be used as an advanced trainer by the Jagdfliegerschulen, which also became the case. After all the type was the most numerous Czeck type captured by the Luftwaffe. It also fits Prien's statement that these Staffeln were called Reservestaffeln and used for training of reserve pilots.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Avias B534 with 1. and 2./JG 70?
 

Stig,

Thank you for your reply, it is nice to have someone to discuss the topic.

If you check my post No.3, JFV, Teil 1, stated that the Reservestaffel/JG 71 (i.e., say 3./JG 71) operated the Bf 109 D-1 aircraft, while in JFV, Teil 2, on the II./JG 52 (which absorbed the 1./JG 71 as 4./JG 52 in early September 1939), you can find a series of photos of the apparently 1./JG 71 Avia B534 aircraft at Bad Aibling in early September 1939.

The usage of these Avias was brief, and I fully agree with you that it was a stop gap measure.

Regards,
Sinisa

Re: Avias B534 with 1. and 2./JG 70?
 

In the absence of more reliable information on the Avia B534 aircraft with I./JG 70, I wonder whether the attached could be considered at least as a remote possibility? Source: my own design drawings.

Re: Avias B534 with 1. and 2./JG 70?
 

The following excerpt on the B 534 fighter is taken from the book Foreign Planes in the Service of the Luftwaffe (1938-1945) by Jean-Louis Roba, here https://books.google.ie/books?id=Ykc...G%2070&f=false

Avia B-534: This pleasant single-seater was admired and praised by the new owners. As it was captured in numbers (probably more than 300 B-534 fighters of all types – including Bk 534), they were largely used in the German Airforce, a training centre for this type of fighter having to be created at Herzogenaurach for the dispatching of the planes. But the Luftwaffe did not acquire all the fighters as some of them had to be given to the airforce of Germany’s new ally: the Independent Slovak State.

As the B-534 was a modern plane, they (i.e., the Germans) tried to include it in frontline units. In September 1939, a Staffel of II./Trägergruppe 186 received a few B-534s. A few of them were equipped with arrester-hooks and structurally strengthened for testing on the future aircraft carrier Graf Zeppelin. The experiment would last only a few of weeks, until the captured planes were replaced by Bf 109s, and pressed into school units. Another Staffel, 3./JG 70, was also temporarily equipped with these Avias.

The sole B-534 remaining in the frontline units were transferred into LLG1 and LLG2, the combat glider wings. The Czech machines were employed (alongside many other types, such as Ju 87s, Hs 126s, etc.) to tow DFS 230s. In 1940 a handful of planes were temporarily painted in Polish markings to play the role of PZL fighters in the Carl Ritter picture Kampfgeschwader Lützow.

Re: Avias B534 with 1. and 2./JG 70?
 

Thank You gentleman for this fascinating topic and Your input.

There is a bit of info regarding 1/JG71 use of Avia aircraft in a flugbuch by

Karl Elsner...I don't have a copy , but it was on EBay recently and one could read in the description;

ab 11.7.1939 1./JG 71 Starts mit Me 109, Go 145 Avia 534, Bad Ailing

I think the answer to our query in this thread lies in pilot logs.

Best Regards,
Martin Vyroubal

Re: Avias B534 with 1. and 2./JG 70?
 

The first flights in this log with B.534 were on 27.07.1939, the last on 01.08.39. All in all it were 12 flights with W.Nr. numbers (?): 228, 120, 153, 175, 228, 276.

Regards
Rasmussen

Re: Avias B534 with 1. and 2./JG 70?
 

Thank You Rasmussen for this rare info, it looks then that (most likely) the large white numbers were not applied yet and in the flugbuch there are the Wrk. Nr.s.
Best regars,
Martin

Re: Avias B534 with 1. and 2./JG 70?
 

PS; was there 5 different Avias ?...since the 228 is listed twice.

Re: Avias B534 with 1. and 2./JG 70?
 

I changed the position of the numbers and forgot to delete the second "228" but there was an sixth B.534 with the number "7" too.

Re: Avias B534 with 1. and 2./JG 70?
 

Thank You for this, great info.
BR, Martin

Re: Avias B534 with 1. and 2./JG 70?
 

Interesting indeed Rasmussen

From the listed captured Avias in the book Ceskoslovenská letadla ve sluzbách
Luftwaffe, the following Avia c/n correspond to your list
120, 153, 175, 228

However the c/n 7 and 276 are not listed. Can you confirm both these numbers please from the Flugbuch in question?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Avias B534 with 1. and 2./JG 70?
 

Yes, these numbers are mentioned in this logbook. I'd guess the "7" was an "white 7" and not an W.Nr. ...

Re: Avias B534 with 1. and 2./JG 70?
 

Don't be too certain about that Rasmussen:)

According to the book, the following low c/n (WNr) are listed as taken by Luftwaffe: 3, 6, 8, 13 etc, etc, so a c/n (WNr) 7 is quite possible

Cheers
Stig

Re: Avias B534 with 1. and 2./JG 70?
 

Stig,

white "7" was WNr. 129 - it's known from a photo in a private collection.

Re: Avias B534 with 1. and 2./JG 70?
 

Ah, thanks Merlin :)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Avias B534 with 1. and 2./JG 70?
 

The foto of "white 7" is on page 14 (020) of the "Czechoslovak aircraft..." book
mentioned above
On page 22 there is a brief mention,(in the Czech text), of LKS 8 that transferred some of it's Avias to I/JG71 as of 26/07/1939.
Can anyone help with some more Avia (summer 1939) flugbuch entries, please?
For instance the flugbuch of Erwin Leykauf , around September 1939,
should contain his flights with LKS 4.
BR, Martin

Re: Avias B534 with 1. and 2./JG 70?
 

In the FB Leykauf are mentioned only 7 flights with an B.534: 3 on 26.09.1939 (sign of B.534 unknown), 1 on 29.09.1939 (sign unknown) --- all in Illesheim --- and 3 on 20.10.39 (sign of B.534: "2") --- in Fürstenfeldbruck. A lot of flights with B.534 I have in JFS 4 in April - September 1940.

Re: Avias B534 with 1. and 2./JG 70?
 

Martin,

The LKS 8 was formed in 1941 for officer training of Flak units, they did not have any aircraft. I have no proof that any LKS ever has had an Avia B534.

During 1939 these aircraft were on duty with:
JFS Werneuchen
JFS Stolp
JG 71
TGr 186
and a very few with school units.

Re: Avias B534 with 1. and 2./JG 70?
 

Thank You Rasmussen very much for your info. I would love to know
regarding JFS4 Avias, did they wear single digit or double digit white numbers till September 1940? Can You please share if possible?

Merlin ,
in the Czech book mentioned above , there is, in Czech, p.21, a short "memoir"
of a member of I/JG71, this unknown pilot mentions their Avias as being ex- LKS8.
I believe that is the origin of the info about Avias with LKS8.

BR,
Martin

Re: Avias B534 with 1. and 2./JG 70?
 

There are mentioned 3-digit-numbers (I'd guess the W.Nr.) and 2-digit numbers (if this white numbers or W.Nr.'s I can't say).

Re: Avias B534 with 1. and 2./JG 70?
 

Thank You Sir, much appreciated.
B.R., Martin

Re: Avias B534 with 1. and 2./JG 70?
 

Gentlemen,

Thank you for this discussion, it really is highly valued, especially the references from the pilots' logs. I thought that the thread captured a limited attention of the members.

I would like to try and discuss post No.21 above: "During 1939 these aircraft were on duty with: JFS Werneuchen, JFS Stolp, JG 71, TGr 186 and a very few with school units."

Does that mean that references to the Avias B534 being on duty with I./JG 70 during the summer of 1939, as found in Bob, Trautloft and Held, JG 54: A Photographic History of the Grünherzjäger (i.e., Post No.1), John Weal's book Jagdgeschwader 54 "Grünherz" (i.e., Post No.2) and Foreign Planes in the Service of the Luftwaffe (1938-1945) by Jean-Louis Roba (Post No.7), can all be safely discarded?

Furthermore, post No.3, what about the time-location conflict in the series of photographs in the JVF der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934-1945, Teil 2, II./Jagdgeschwader 52, pages 322 and 323, photos 381 – 384 featuring the Staffel’s Avia B534 aircraft with the 1./JG 71 (early) winged devil emblem and caption "... some pilots of 1./JG 71 at "readiness" at Bad Aibling in the beginning of September 1939..", while at that time 1./JG 71 was already supposed to be based at Böblingen (i.e., from 29 August 1939), and definitely equipped with the Bf 109 D-1 aircraft.

Thus, it would appear that those photos were either taken with 1./JG 71 at Bad Aibling sometime earlier, in July/August 1939, or
if they were taken in the beginning of September 1939 (as they appear to be), they were likely not taken with 1./JG 71 at Bad Aibling, but with some other unit elsewhere.

Re: Avias B534 with 1. and 2./JG 70?
 

Hi sidney,
thank You for the nice breakdown of some of the unanswered aspects of early use of B-534 in Luftwaffe service. Post No.21 by Merlin indeed is of interest.
I do not have answers, if anyone can please donate any Avia B-534 flugbuch (1939)entries please do not hesitate.I am curious regarding the style of marking of B-534s with JFS Werneuchen, also JFS Stolp, is there any info regarding use of color for fuselage bands, numbers...etc?
B.R. Martin

Re: Avias B534 with 1. and 2./JG 70?
 

As a side note, the Avia B.534 was also sold to Bulgaria (77 or 78 units, no firm confirmation available).

Re: Avias B534 with 1. and 2./JG 70?
 

Thank You Dénes, this is another interesting chapter in B-534 history, I am very much interested in the camouflage and markings of these Avias, is there any photographic evidence of the style of marking used on these planes while they were still in German hands?(Before they were crated and sent on train to Bulgaria?) Were there any fuselage crosses used? Are there any documents or flugbucher entries related to the export of these planes?
B.R.
Martin

Re: Avias B534 with 1. and 2./JG 70?
 

Martin, I have not seen photos of the Avias while being crated, or being unloaded in Bulgaria; however, based on their constr. nos. one can try to find photos while they were in Luftwaffe service, sporting German markings.

Re: Avias B534 with 1. and 2./JG 70?
 

There is a new B-534 (about its service in Bulgaria) book coming this year from Japo publishers , so I hope we learn more regarding any German export markings on Avias B-534 soon, as well as the actual construction numbers.
Dénes I really liked Your Avia B-534 chapter in the Hungarian Fighter Colors 1930-45 Vol 2 book, dealing with the first captured Avia B-534, (24/3/1939 by Hungary). In the very first photo on page 202, the plane still wearing the old Czechoslovak insignia, is there any damage visible on the plane?(For instance just above the tailwheel.) Also, are the bombs still attached under the wing?
Best Regards, Martin

Re: Avias B534 with 1. and 2./JG 70?
 

Hello Martin, it's only now that I have time too look at the original scan for the details you are looking for (the photo in the book is too dark).

I can positively confirm the bombs are still in their racks.
About the damage to the tail area, there is something that looks like ruptured fabric skin , but I am not 100% positive. Check the detail photo for yourself.

Yes, I am aware of the book on Bulgarian 'Dogans', to be published by JaPo. I can state that my colleague Jaroslav Krec (whom I helped a bit) is the best person to write such a book, as no one (including Bulgarian researchers) knows better the topic than him. I am really looking forward to reading that book!

Re: Avias B534 with 1. and 2./JG 70?
 

Hello Dénes, many thanks for the ultra-rare close-up photo, fantastic. The Baptism of Fire book by Mr.C.B.Stenge describes this plane as being damaged by accurate anti-aircraft machine-gun fire(p.41), so Your picture confirmes that the bombs were still attached and
the area above the tail wheel was open. It is where the First Aid kit was located.
There could be damage there, as the opening seems to be irregular a bit. Also later photos
of this Avia indicate some irregularities in this area.
Best Regard, and Thank You.
Martin

Re: Avias B534 with 1. and 2./JG 70?
 

Hi Merlin
can You please share some info about B534 at JFS Werneuchen?
Looking into my files I can't find anything mentioning B534 at this unit.
Many thanks,
Cheers, Martin

Re: Avias B534 with 1. and 2./JG 70?
 

Just a quick addition regarding the Hungarian B534 in the photos above: my new research clearly shows that t is not the plane flown by Zachar, the captured B534 later flown by Hungarians was Hanovec's B534.323. BR, Martin