P-61 buffs
 

Hi guys

Which P-61 crew claimed a victory on the night of 28-29/9/44 over the North Sea?

A P-61 was lost on operations over the Continent in March 1945 - who were the crew members?

Cheers
Brian

Re: P-61 buffs
 

to your last question :

P-61 # 82 if the 425th nfs. Pilot Ormsby chases a Ju 87D and is hit by return fire of the rear gunner/radio operator. He ws then hit by US AA at 9,000 ft near Nancy. Ormsby called out on radio to stop firing but the US AA commander kept telling his men to shoot or he would court martial the gun crews ! 1 to 2 AA shells came up through the floor of the P-61 and killed Ormsby and broke both legs of the radar op Hower, but Hower struggled and bailed out, with German civilians taking him to Darmstadt's hosptial.......March 24, 1945.

to your first question nothing as to kills for the 422nd or 425th nfs.

E ~

Re: P-61 buffs
 

Many thanks Erich - that was rapid response at its best!

Cheers
Brian

Re: P-61 buffs
 

Brian the 415th nfs had just moved to Dijon France in September 44 and 1 crew flying a Beufighter scored a He 111 you mentioned on the Septmeber 44 date, two nights earlier the crew had shot down an Fw 200 around 20.00 hrs.

E ~

Re: P-61 buffs
 

For what it's worth, a Mosquito crew of 25 Squadron actually claimed two V-1 launcher He 111s over the North Sea on 28/29 September 1944. I don't know if any other claims were made on the same night - I know the RAF did use Beaus in this role as the speed the He 111s flew was so slow as to make interception by Mossies difficult.

Re: P-61 buffs
 

Thanks guys

Erich - who were the 415thNFS crew that claimed the He111 and FW200?

Cheers
Brian

Re: P-61 buffs
 

Nancy seems a strange place here. Ju 87 were used at night but near the frontline, and it was in Germany at the time. Also Germany is coherent with the fact that the survivor was taken to Darmstadt. Erich, can you please check the AA position ?

Re: P-61 buffs
 

Hi guys

I am now confused! Easily done, in my case!

According to Jack Foreman's 'Fighter Command War Diaries', a P-61 crew claimed a victory on the night of 28/29 September 1944, not a US Beaufighter. Anyway, I don't think a 415thNFS Beaufighter operating from Dijon would have been patrolling over the North Sea, and therefore the He111 mentioned as being shot down must have been more local to Dijon. So, did a P-61 of 422nd/425th NFS claim a victory on this night (a He111?), only to find that it was the missing 157 Squadron Mosquito MM646, which possibly crashed near Geesbrug in Holland (the crew of Flt Lt Peter Fry and Flg off Harry Smith are buried in the cemetery at Oosterhesselen near Geesbrug).

Can anyone unravel this mystery for me, please?

Cheers
Brian

Re: P-61 buffs
 

Gentlemen I have used the 422nd and 425th nfs war diaries - microfische which was given to me to copy some years ago from 425nfs rep Bud Anderson. I have interviewed 425th nfs C.O. Gilly Lewis and asked him about suspicious claims and all he could say is that US nf crews were not the bet on their ID, as Gilly is a good sized chap I left the question there and did not further it nor with friend Bud Anderson and pilot Jack slayton which I interviewed at least 6 times while he lived in my area. Obviously for moral purposes amongst he squadrons it would not have been appropriate to include a Mossie in the kill claims and the "accident" would of been placed in loads of paper work to be quickly forgotten. Others may have differnt views on this of course but anyone can see easily the severe embaressment associated with this.

Laurent, the info was given directly from the date observed in the 425th nfs micro-fische which I must tell you is a total mess and was not easily copied, nor is the 422nd's, 415ths 416th and 417th nfs.

another version is that it was AA in the area of Darmstadt that brought down the P-61 on the 24th of March 45. Also that the Ju 87 was also shot down on that op.

Brian, the 415th nfs crew was : Capt. Harold Augspurger and 2nd Lt. Austin Petry R/O

Re: P-61 buffs
 

Hi Erich

Thanks again, but since Jack Foreman has noted a P-61 kill in his 'Fighter Command War Diaries' one would assume this incident was also recorded in the USAAF War Diary. From the copies of the 422nd and 425th NFS war diaries that you have - microfische or otherwise - are you able to determine which crew or crews were airborne on that night of 28/29 September 1944, from 0100 onwards (which is when the 157 Sqn Mosquito took off)?

Cheers
Brian

Re: P-61 buffs
 

Guys
Late as usual I have no real answers but a few questions instead. Also these dates are different from Erich's....
My sources are
Victory lists no 5 and 6 by Frank Olynyk
Queen of the Midnight Skies by Pape and Harrison

There were the following Night Fighter Units in Europe at the time
414 NFS Base(28.9.44):Borgo,Corsica (3.45): Florennes,Belgium
415 NFS Base(28.9.44):Longvic,France (3.45):Ochey,later St Dizier,France
416 NFS Base(28.9.44):Pomigliano,Italy (3.45):Pisa,later Pontedera,Italy
417 NFS Base(28.9.44):Borgo,Corsica (3.45): La Vallon, France
422 NFS Base(28.9.44):Florennes,Belgium (3.45):Florennes,Belgium
425 NFS Base(28.9.44):Coulommiers,France(3.45):Etain,Franc e

According to Olynyk 415 NFS claimed a Fw 200K on 28.9.44 at 20.31H by Harold Augspurger. This claim is listed by Page/Harrison occuring on the 27th. The unit is in France at the time and this is the only claim coming close to your original request Brian. Since it was in the Dijon area it does not really fit "over the North Sea", but fits Fighter Command War Diaries vol 5... I am not sure if this automatically means that the date 28th is correct. Anyone who can confirm this??

What makes me curious is that Olynyk lists BOTH 414 and 415 NFS when they moved to France STILL under 12th Air Force charge but in the "Western Europe" book no 5.

Can someone more knowledgeable than me advise why the units were not transferred to the 9th AF? Would have made more sense to me:confused: !!

Regarding LOSSES, I have no books covering the US forces at this time.

Cheers
Stig

Re: P-61 buffs
 

There was a thread on this in 2002 I kept a copy of the responses and Michael Balss gave a location in Germany:

M.Balss: rear gunner
Fri Jun 21 06:57:11 2002
The Ormsby/Howerton crew shot down at Eschollbrücken near the Highway Frankfurt-Mannheim, about 10km SW Darmstadt, they are chasing a Ju 87, Ormsby hit the prop when he bailed out and only found dead in his chute in a tree by German civilians, Howerton was badly wounded but survived.

Re: P-61 buffs
 

actually the Queens of the Midnight Skies shows the Fw 220 kill on September 27 and the He 111 on the 29th.

I'm probably going to have to sort through the crappy 415th nfs micro-fische to be certain.

422nd 15 P-61, 0 hunts-patrols: 10/10 cloud to CAVU

have no times listed on this date

# 58 Johnson : patrol in the Trier, Metz, malmedy areas
# 43 J. Anderson on 2 patrols in the area of Liege and malmedy
# 73 Lakes on patrol,hunt followed 1 P-38 in evasive manuevers around Liege
# 34 Elmore on 2 patrols in the area of Nancy and Saarbrucken
# 64 Otte on 2 patrols lost 1 contact near Füren
# 38 Koehler on 2 patrols, first one was a 0, the second followed a B-17 in the area of VErdun, Luxembourg
# 47 Gordon his AI went out and he aborted.
# 94 Nixon on 2 patrols, 1 friendly chase in area of Saarbrucken and Metz
# 40 Spelis chased 2 Friendlies in the aeas of Malmedy and Köln
# 77 Elbracht 0, lost contact as it was too fast while patroling the France-German border.

this was operation number 43: Defnsive Patrol for the 422nd NFS.
__________________________________________________ _____________

Re: P-61 buffs
 

Nick :

that is interesting as Howerton said after war that Ormsby bit it, hit twice by Flak and was already dead before Howerton bailed out wounded...........

ah research

Re: P-61 buffs
 

425th nfs 28 September 1944, an operation on both dates. this is op # 40

14 P-61 on ops-patrols.

no times listed and only 2 pilots

# 81 Slayton on uneventful patrol
# 80 Lewis on uneventful patrol
# 70 Slayton returns and flies a different P-61, second mission 0 event

29 September 1944, this is op # 41

14 P-61's out on ops. Generalization of evening on micro-fische, some friendlies, some chases, lost contacts via AI or GCI

# 85 Glasser in the Trier area
# 49 Montmeat in the area of Trier and Metz
# 50 Slayton in the area of Toul and Essay
# 60 Saranowicz
# 70 Ornsby
# 81 Lewis
# 76 Bierer
# 46 Andrews
# 85 Buck
# 39 Yule
# 49 McDonald
# 60 Bradshaw
# 81 Byars: AI went out and he aborted
# 70 Janicek

that is it, pretty skimpy materials Brian sorry to say

hope iti helps a bit............
__________________________________________________ ___________

Re: P-61 buffs
 

I have found cases both in French and German papers where known (at the time) friendly fire cases just disappeared of the official papers. Especially when there were fatalities. I think most of the time more can be learned from the files of the target unit rather than the "victorious" one.

Now, if I may dare to hijack this thread... Erich, I will be interested by the reports of 422 NFS for the kills of 4, 21 and 25 October 1944. Please contact me by PM if you have them and agree to share.

Regards

Laurent

PS: Brian, I just saw your mail about the V-1 book, I replied on your private mail.

Re: P-61 buffs
 

Hi Erich

Your evidence is compelling and it seems that a P-61 DID NOT shoot down a Mosquito on the night of 28/29 September 1944. Thus I have avoided making such a statement and therefore error in my forthcoming book, which is likely to be controversial without me adding erroneous information.

May I prevail further on your generosity, please? As you may be aware I am writing about the V-1 assault on the UK in 1944, when the P-61s from both 422ndNFS and 425thNFS were involved. From your records, are you able to provide the following details:

20/21 July: Spelis (422nd) V-1 - do you have serial number and time of encounter?
27/28 July: Smith (422nd) V-1 ditto
5/6 August: Peterson (425th) V-1 serial number?
5/6 August: Axtell (422nd) Do217 probable - serial number and time?
6/7 August: Peterson (425th) V-1 - serial number and time?
7/8 August: Sartanowicz (425th) V-1 - ditto
8/9 August: Thompson (425th) V-1 - serial number and time?
14/15 Aug: P-61 engaged He177 - P-61 damaged by return fire and crash-landed - crew? serial number? time?
26/27 Nov: Smith (422nd) V-1 time?

I do apologise for requesting so much of your time but any information will help fill the gaps in my work. I will of course acknowledge your contribution.

Cheers
Brian

Re: P-61 buffs
 

Brian and others :

hope this makes sense to you for your work, we have just had a major tragedy here so I am going off-line for sometime. Wanted to get this off to you becaue of your interest and Laurent I will be in touch with your inquiries

422nd :

July 15/16, 44

Lt. Ernst in # 47, 3 missions, shot down 1 V-1 at 900 yards with 3 bursts of 20mm.

July 16/17, 1944, operation # 2

Lt. elmore in # 34 dives on a V-1 and at 1000 feet gives the V-1 2 bursts, the V-1 explodes when hitting the ground. 650 rounds of 20mm used.

July 17, 1944, operation # 3, anti-diver patrols

4 P-61's up and 1 V-1 claim by ? , 513 rounds of 20mm used.

July 19/20, 1944 operation # 5, anti-diver patrols

4 P-61's up and 1 V-1 shot down by J.W. Anderson as he dove down on the bomb and dead astern fires between 2500 and 1500 feet. Flying P-61 # 43, used 224 rounds of 20mm

July 20, 1944, operation # 6, anti-diver patrols

2 V-1 claims, 1 crew unknown

# 40 T.Spelis dove down on a V-1 from 1000 feet at 340 mph. V-1 exlodes striking the P-61, damaging the left and right airelons as he flew through the debris, home safe. 820 rounds used.

July 23, 1944, opearion # 9, anti-diver patrols

7 P-61's up and a unifeid effort with sister unit, 425th nfs.

# 80 flown by the 425thnfs, a major Ross closed to within 3000 feet and then down to 1200 feet dead astern and fires on 1 V-1 destroying it with 160 rounds of 20mm.

this concludes the Anti-diver patrols against the V-1 with the 422nd NFS.

Brian be back shortly with the 425th nfs
__________________________________________________ ____________


Erich

Re: P-61 buffs
 

425th nfs

31 July 44

op # 1, 4 P-61's up, all pilots gave chases to V-1's, 0 success

5 August 44

op # 6, 4 P-61's up. # 81, Lt. Garth Peterson catchs a V-1 doing 180mph, dove on it behind 400 feet astern and fired, hits all over and under; the propulsion unit gives out and it dives down and crashes in the water 21 miles south of Hastings at 0445 hrs. 135 20mm rounds used

6 August 44

op # 7, 4 P-61's up. # 81 Lt. Garth Peterson at 300mph dove down on a V-1 and at 600 feet fired a long burst-several, V-1 blew up between Beachy Head and Brighton; 240 rounds used.
# 82, Thompson follows V-1 and he changed course to intercept, the V-1 blows up in the air (?)

7 August 44

op # 8, 3 P-61's up. # 82 Sartanowicz saw bomb at 3500 feet, flying at 200mph, came up behind and fired from 600 feet, propulsion unit went out and it dove into the channel 23 miles south of Hastings. 135 20mm rounds used.

8 August 44

op # 9, 4 P-61's up. # 82 Thompson flying at 360mph, saw a V-1 at 7,000 feet. Dove on it and down to 1800 feet and at 2,000 yards astern, fired, and as he got closer fired again and pulling up after a long burst, V-1 exploding. 820 rounds of 20mm used.

425th NFS moves to the burned out airfield at Vannes on August 12-26, 1944, non-operational due to reconstruction of field

please edit for content
__________________________________________________ _____________

Re: P-61 buffs
 

Hi Erich

Thanks a million - but am concerned by the 'major tragedy' you mention. I do hope it's not a personal one. Look forward to hearing from you again when time and circumstances permit.

With best wishes

Brian

Re: P-61 buffs
 

cancer Brian and another item which I will not explain right now. thanks for the wishes and hopefully the info for your data was of some useage.

thumbs up !

Re: P-61 buffs
 

Hi Erich

I am so sorry, I just didn't know. It makes your contributions much more valuable and meaningful. I, and I am sure on behalf of all those who read this, offer my very best wishes.

In our thoughts
Brian

Re: P-61 buffs
 

Hi Erich

When you feel up to it may I ask you to have another look at 422/425 records, please.

Night of 5-6 August 1944, Axtell claimed a Do217 probable. Is there any indication of serial number of P-61 and time of combat?

Night 14/15 August: A P-61 was in combat with a He177 - the P-61 was damaged and crash-landed. Who were the crew? And serial number of P-61?

You mention a Major Ross claiming a V-1 on 23 July 1944. I have not come across his name before. Any further details?

Hope you are feeling somehat better.

Best wishes
Brian

Re: P-61 buffs
 

Re: P-61 buffs
 

Brian the date is actually the next eve. august 6-7-44

120 rds of 20mm used, hrs were 0130-0345 P-61 # 68. Clear with light haze, 8/10th-10/10 clouds CAVU Operation # 4 defensive patrols. 8 P-61's up.
Followed a Do 217 ? over Bayeux in a violent evasive action from 8,000 feet leveation down to 4500 feet and at 600 feet dead astern he fired a little above into the German crafts fuselage. do 217 dove into the clouds neat Bay of Mont St. Micael.

Major Ross is a question in my data base............

August 14/15, 44

Operation # 11 haze to 8000 feet, stratus to 11/12000 feet. 9 P-61's up.

"Impatient Widow" # 91 flown by Gordon followed an He 177 from 2./KG 40 going 180mph. fired into the wings and tail, pieces flew off. rear gunner of He 177 fired 13mm ? and hit P-61 in starborad engine and shout out hydrallics. He 177 dove away, P-61A-10 had cat. B/E damage, crash alnded with one engine. 2350 to 0110 hrs, Gordon used 150 rounds of 20mm ammo. The P-61 was actually written off destroyed.......... 1 kill for the He 177. the rear gunner of the He 177 was Unteroffizier Fabinger, and the pilot Hauptmann Stolte. // the rear gunner actually was using a 2cm weapon // gordons P61 was serial # 42-5591

Brian do I get a signed copy and a mention for your future volume in payment ;-)
__________________________________________________ ___________

Monoco the 425th nfs was not operational on the 26th of August 44 as they were still working on the Vannes A/F to get it operational.

on the 27th of august, 44 pilo Lt. Nelson Willis clipped a telephone pole and smashed into a bridge ......... KIA and evidently witnesses to this effect, 3 other P-61's received flak damge though this could of been Luftw craft damage, nothing to say either end sorry.

on 29th of august 44 Lt. J. Webb crashed 3 miles S.E. of A-33N, Vannes KIA as this was operation # 13. This may well have been German a/c related ?

on the night of the 24/25 and 25/26th of December no losses reported by the 422nd or 425th nfs. But for the follwoing evening 26/27 December the 425th nfs lost P-61 # 84, Lt. Byars shot down by US AA guns near A-94 nacy, at least this is what is posted in the microfische. could this be the Ofw. Siewert kill often claimed ? An interesting comment for the 26/27 December 44 mission, 20 P-61's airborne on night intercepts clear, haze in the valleys. Many chases-lost due to GCI controller and the German A/C traveling too fast...........interesting yes ?
# 74 Colligan actually engaged a RAF Lancaster by mistake and was fired upon, but no damge. another pilot thompson flying P-61 # 82 visual on an Fw 190 and tried to intercept the GErman craft but it evaded by peeling off to the deck. # 74 Janicek lost a Bf 110 down to 500 feet altitude and the German 110's evasive action, escaped. 2 Ju 188's ? claimed for the evenings ops

Re: P-61 buffs
 

Hi Erich

Of course you will! Perhaps you'll let me have your full name and address (by PM if necessary) to enable me to credit you properly. It goes without saying that I am extremely grateful to you for your generous assistance.

With best wishes
Brian

Re: P-61 buffs
 

Hi Erich,

thanks for the reply. It would have been too easy...IV./NJG.6 was flying Bf.110s and Ju.88s at that time from bases in Unterfranken (my home region), Schleissheim,Gerolzhofen, Kitzingen and from Ingolstadt (Bavaria), but this do not help much I think. Maybe the P-61s claimed were another twin tailed type (B-25?) - identification at night is always a problem. Maybe the claims were erroneously made.

Good luck

monaco

Re: P-61 buffs
 

Hi Monaco

Have you a copy of MACR8706 relating to the P-61 shown lost on 26/8/44? I was about to order a copy when I realised you quote this in your message. If so, who were the crew?

Cheers
Brian

Re: P-61 buffs
 

No Brian, I have not, I´m sorry.

Monaco

Re: P-61 buffs
 

Hi Erich and Monaco

I have now obtained a copy of MACR8706 relating to the loss of P-61A-5 42-5545 on the night of 26/27 August 1944. It was an aircraft of 425thNFS with pilot 1/Lt Nelson D. Willis only on board (no R/Op) engaged on ground strafing troops in the region of the Balz Bridge. It departed A.33 either at 2100 hours/or was last heard from at 2100 hours (not clear). Believed to have been hit by enemy AA fire, although Free French forces reported that it was seen to hit trees, rise to 200 feet and explode in mid-air. No mention of enemy aircraft activity.

Cheers
Brian

PS: Erich- I hope you're feeling somewhat better.

PPS: Erich - if you are up to it, would you mind having a look at 422ndNFS records and advise the identity and any other details of the P-61 pilot who claimed a V-1 shot down on 17/18 July 1944 but was not credited with it. Also, on 20/21 July when Capt Spelis shot down a V-1, another was claimed by a second pilot but similarly not credited. Who was this?

Cheers
Brian

Re: P-61 buffs
 

Hi,
I'm Allison Gordon, P-61 pilot Al Gordon's niece. I saw this posting about my uncle and wanted to offer that I wrote and published a detailed wartime memoir for Al entitled, "War in the Night Sky." I'd love to learn more and know how to share this memoir with a wider audience than just family. Any suggestions?
Allison
allynow@gmail.com
206-696-4206

Re: P-61 buffs
 

Below is my uncle, Al Gordon's account of the incident in question:

“On my eleventh mission, August 17,1944, we were doing a night patrol over the English Channel, and we got a bogie. So they put us on a heading to intercept, and pretty soon my RO says, "I got him". And we called GCI, and said, "We have him." We closed in, and my RO would tell me, gentle port, gentle starboard, increase your speed, decrease your speed. And he brought me in. It was a German Heinkel 177 bomber.

“Unfortunately he saw me before I saw him, and his tail gunner cut loose knocking out my starboard engine which immediately caught fire. Some of the enemy fire entered the top of my canopy, and lodged in and exploded the hydraulic reservoir just above and behind my head. That knocked out part of the hydraulic system. Fortunately the
P-61 controls didn't operate hydraulically; they were operated by cables. So the hydraulic failure didn't affect the flyability of the plane.

“My first reaction was complete shock—they didn’t tell us about this! Then all the training kicked in and I proceeded to function. I was scared, of course. I'd have to be a liar to say I wasn't. But I was so damn busy, trying to fly the aircraft at that point that I really didn't have much time to think about it. But I knew that I was in trouble, and I was trying to work my way out of it. I could communicate with my RO over the radio, but in hindsight I should have talked more, because he didn't know what the hell I was doing, and he was scared to death.

“So here I am, a flamer, 50 miles out over the English Channel. I feathered the starboard engine right away-- I did the right thing there. And I dove it a little bit to gain speed, and put the fire out. My radio was still somewhat operational, so GCI vectored me back. My guess is that it might have been fifteen minutes before we reached the airfield, but it seemed like a long, long time. I came in on one engine, and I lowered my landing gear, not realizing that my nose wheel had been shot out from under me. Considering everything, it was a good landing, except that when it came time for the nose wheel to drop, there was no nose wheel. So I skidded on the front of the plane to a stop.

“Nobody was hurt, but I learned a valuable lesson on that mission. Never come in for an attack from the rear, shallow—so the tail gunner can see you. Rather you synchronize speed and heading well below the bogie, then identify, drop back, and shoot. The important thing is to live beyond an experience like this and of course learn from it. One tends to be a little more cautious, increasing one’s chances of lasting through the war.”

Re: P-61 buffs
 

Hi Allison. Welcome to the throng. The short extract certainly got my attention as a night-fighter enthusiast and P-61 buff. I think there'd be reasonable interest in your uncle's memoirs. There are a number of aviation buffs who are also publishers - like JDK - who might be able to point you in the right direction. Good luck.

Regards, ...geoff

Re: P-61 buffs
 

Hi Allison,
nice to read your uncles story - b´cause I had some pics of the He 177 which claimed your uncles P-61, with a nice victory bar at the tail..

regards from the Philippines (Oh - I´m born in germany...)

khorat

Re: P-61 buffs
 

Hi Allison,

I'm the 'JDK' Geoff mentions, and I've dropped you an e-mail. Great extract, fascinating read.

Regards,

Re: P-61 buffs
 

Hi Geoff, Khorat, and James,
Thanks for your posts. I wrote the memoir several years ago but have discovered there is new material out there I could incorporate, such as reports and pictures from the Luftwaffe side of the engagements. Anyway, I'm pleased to share the full memoir and have sent it to James to take a look at.

Khorat, can you send me the photos you refer to? allynow@gmail.com

Thanks guys!

Allison