USAAF Pilots Who Scored Victories Over The Romanian Air Force
 

Gentlemen,

So far I only knew at least one who has five air to air victories over the Romanian Air Force during WWII. His name is Herbert B. Hatch a DSC holder. Is there any US pilots that made ace against the Romanians. Well also perhaps two to four victories against the Romanians as well. I think John J. Voll might be one of them.

Sincerely,

Edward L. Hsiao

Re: USAAF Pilots Who Scored Victories Over The Romanian Air Force
 

Edward - that would be a very difficult question to answer. You need to overlay the loss records with the 15th AF Victory credits to start, then select Encounter Reports stored at NARA to further narrow down pilot to pilot. It is more a 'probability art' than a science.

Re: USAAF Pilots Who Scored Victories Over The Romanian Air Force
 

If you have the possibility to go though 1,14,31,52,82,325 FG's history books and various pilot memoirs ,there are various claims confirmed and unconfirmed, however and to my knowledge Hatch is the single pilot with 5 confirmed and an awarded SStar by Twining for such achievement on this theather of ops . The records are held however by 3 Soviet pilots who shot down 6-7 Romanian planes on the same day and one with 19 confirmed victories between March and June 1944 ,last got awarded British OBE for such achievements during activity on the Romanian front .

Re: USAAF Pilots Who Scored Victories Over The Romanian Air Force
 

Any idea about the S/N of Hatch's P-38J No.49?
Thanks,

Gabor

Re: USAAF Pilots Who Scored Victories Over The Romanian Air Force
 

Gabor will look it up for you , though I need to go through all publications
and this may take some time

Re: USAAF Pilots Who Scored Victories Over The Romanian Air Force
 

Thank you. I tried everything, but no luck. It was something 43-28xxx and was damaged on June 16, 1944 near lake Balaton. Cheers,
Gabor

Re: USAAF Pilots Who Scored Victories Over The Romanian Air Force
 

From his FG I have at least 27 publications , history books, diaries,memoires ,15 AF accounts by Twining , Gen.Strother Gen.Rush and Col.Grey as well those vets who sent me material , is not an easy task especially because of my daily activities in parallel to my 1st book final preparation stages in Moscow ,though I will do it and hopefully I will come up with a satisfactory answer for you mate .

Re: USAAF Pilots Who Scored Victories Over The Romanian Air Force
 

Gabor , in the interim when did he commence flying Mon Amy , coze this was a 44 one ? Are you sure the Balaton event was flown with a 43 ?

Re: USAAF Pilots Who Scored Victories Over The Romanian Air Force
 

Yes, I think 'Mon Amy' was a P-38J, S/N: 43-28xxx, boom No.'49'. Why do you think it was a 44 model? Eg. 44-23xxx?
Gabor

Re: USAAF Pilots Who Scored Victories Over The Romanian Air Force
 

Gabor, did you read An Ace and His Angel ? Why do I think ? dunno , you are the better specialist on S/N's battle colors etc , he flew with Mon Amy into the Silver Star as such you may be right was 43 and not 44 and yes 49 on the boom

Re: USAAF Pilots Who Scored Victories Over The Romanian Air Force
 

Nice pic, thanks. Last 3 digits of 42-104xxx series serial numbers were visible on the nose on the sides. 43-28xxx serials were not. P-38L models had last 4 digits, but early June, 1944 excludes them all. Here I am not sure. Sometimes photos are amazingly perfect NOT to show the most critical details... :-)))))
Cheers,

Gabor

Re: USAAF Pilots Who Scored Victories Over The Romanian Air Force
 

Gabor, I increasingly believe that you are right , must have been a 43 and accordingly
I'll will be looking up for details

Re: USAAF Pilots Who Scored Victories Over The Romanian Air Force
 

will follow up

Re: USAAF Pilots Who Scored Victories Over The Romanian Air Force
 

Actually not , is a 43 ...let me check further

Re: USAAF Pilots Who Scored Victories Over The Romanian Air Force
 

Gabor

Two issues, on any of my books I don't have details
on 1st FG on June 16, 44 over Hungaria but over Lobau
Vienna Refin.escorting 55th BW , so how on the earth
did he arrive over Balaton far SE off course on the
other leg back to Italy or from Italy to Vienna ?

Next issue is that I have no clear tail boom shots
available and no clear details as into acft on memoires
or history book

please clarify point 1

Re: USAAF Pilots Who Scored Victories Over The Romanian Air Force
 

NOT far off from the legs of the mission at all! US bombers almost always flew to Lake Balaton first, then turned to the target directions, including Vienna for several reasons:

1. Lake Balaton was the best navigational point in the region, well visible from almost as far as from Italy :-))))))

2. Going to Lake Balaton the Americans could avoid many large flak-zones of the ground AAA defence.

3. Flying to Lake Balaton the German fighter defence did not know -until the very last minutes- the plan and the daily targets of the Americans, who therefore could confuse and delay the organized actions of the opponent fighter forces. From Lake Balaton all main targets in the area, including Vienna and Budapest were just a few minutes away (in different directions), so Axis fighters had not much time left to catch effectively the bombers after the IP before they reached the actual targets after their turn at the lake.

4. Flying to Lake Balaton the Americans had to cross the partisan held area of Yugoslavia, which - especially on the way back - was critical for the crews of the damaged planes returning from Vienna, Budapest, etc.

Returning from Vienna over the high Austrian Alps straight down to Italy would have been a very risky nonsense. They always turned to SE and used the Lake Balaton(-W) route over western Hungary. So battles at lake Balaton were almost always regular part of the Vienna raids, just like on June 16, 1944, which, btw, resulted huge - and well reconstructed - losses on both sides.

Cheers,
Gabor

Re: USAAF Pilots Who Scored Victories Over The Romanian Air Force
 

Gabor

Again is an interesting point worth thorough study , the route to and from Hungaria
to Vienna was rather a dangerous one , I will check all 15th BG's and FG's material at my
end approaching Lobbau from Hungaria or withdrawing the target through deep Hungaria
to Italy thats something new me, distance about 300 Km at P-38 cruise 40 minutes and
B-17/B-24 about an hour plus with payload . A brief view of 464 , 485 and 460 BG's
history books show that on June 16,44 withdrawal from Lobbau was via Balaton though got
heavily engaged by German and Hungarian fighters . Flying to Vienna from Italy was an other complicate
issue indicating that the Austrian Radars were picking up the groups already over Yugoslavia
something of a real concern to the 15th

I will check it up further and get back to you on this.

Re: USAAF Pilots Who Scored Victories Over The Romanian Air Force
 

15. USAAF., 1. FG, 71. FS Lockheed P-38J-LO flight on June 16, 1944 in battle at Lake Balaton:

1. Lt.Col. Lee V. Wiseman 43-28481?, #31, “The V. SPURLY” - returned early!
2. 1Lt. William D. Armstrong
3. 2Lt. Francis H. Harris, early return!
4. 2Lt. Robert M. Bridges, 42-104101 (?)
5. 1Lt. Glen Edward Tanner
6. 2lt. Joe Morrison - early return!
7. 1Lt. Joseph Jamison
8. 2lt. George Johnson
9. Capt. Richard H. Furr (red "3") #33?
10. 2Lt. Hunter - early return!
11. 1Lt. John J. Shepard Jr. (POW) 43-28656 #34,– at Bálványos-NW (red "4") – (shot down by Hungarian Bf 109Ga-6 ace, Lőrincz Mátyás)
12. Capt. James F. Advey (1 engine shot out by Lőrincz Mátyás)
13. 2Lt. Herbert B. ’Stub’ Hatch Jr., 43-28xxx, #49, “Mon Amy” (1 engine shot out by Lőrincz Mátyás)
14. 1Lt. Gerald C. Osgood (red "2"?) 42-104104, #32?

As you see, Lőrincz Mátyás had a "triplet" near Lake Balaton from which one crashed, 2 returned with one engine left, escorted by another 2 P-38s. Since this time the 71 FS had many early returns, these 5 planes mean that Lőrincz Mátyás alone had literally disabled half (50%!) of the 71st FS during this battle!

15. USAAF., 1. FG, 94. FS Lockheed P-38J-LO flight on June 16, 1944 in battle at Lake Balaton:

1. 2Lt. Cecil H. Quesseth (red "1") #61?
2. 2Lt. George J. Loughmiller (KIA) (red "2") 43-28665, ~#63 - crashed at Kapoly, shot down by Debrődy György, Hungarian Bf 109Ga-6 ace
3. 2Lt. Chester H. Heien 42-104267, #64 - "Co-Pilot" (red "3") - downed Hungarian Bf 109Ga-6 pilot, Szittár Gyula (KIA) at Tab-SW
4. 2Lt. Robert B. Van Sice (blue "1") ?
5. 2Lt. Charles L. Dollarhide (blue "2")
6. 2Lt. Thomas E. Vitale (KIA) (blue "3") 43-28357 - crashed at Szántód, at the railway station on the shore of Lake Balaton
7. Lt. Phillip W. Smith Jr. (white "1")
8. 2Lt. James A. Fairhurst (wite "2")
9. 2Lt. Richard K. Arrowsmith #90 (?) (white "3") ?
10. 2Lt. Greenley (green "1") ?
11. 2Lt. Royal M. Nyby (green "3")
12. F/O. Samuel Barnes (KIA) (green "2") 42-104042, #77, "Bucky 'N' Suzy B" , "Linda" - crashed at Balatonendréd

Cheers,
Gabor

Re: USAAF Pilots Who Scored Victories Over The Romanian Air Force
 

Thanks! ;-)

Re: USAAF Pilots Who Scored Victories Over The Romanian Air Force
 

One interesting remark on 485th Mission by Numbers page 44 , 11 P-38 seen to shot down a ME-210 over Balaton ( a whole squadron aiming at a German fighter ) what do you make out of this and what your info is saying about it ? The German and Hungarian scrambled some 40 fighters plus

Re: USAAF Pilots Who Scored Victories Over The Romanian Air Force
 

Yes, German ZG 76 has lost many Me 410A-1 and B-2 planes on June 16, 1944. Most of them crashed near the Danube, north of lake Balaton, but one crashed and exploded at Ozora, Lake Balaton south. I guess this was that. (Me 410A-1, not Me 210):

Me 410A-1, WNr: 420669, marking: "M8 black 15 + -" , crew: pilot Ofw. Grün Bernhard (KIA), gunner: FjFw. Siegfried Weinzierl (KIA) of 5./ZG 76.

Cheers,
Gabor

Re: USAAF Pilots Who Scored Victories Over The Romanian Air Force
 

Gabor perhaps you didn't understand my Q. What do your records say on why
11 P-38's engaging a single ME-210 ? what was the Luftwaffe unit operating
this aircraft ?

Re: USAAF Pilots Who Scored Victories Over The Romanian Air Force
 

No idea.

Re: USAAF Pilots Who Scored Victories Over The Romanian Air Force
 

Gentlemen,

Your posts are off the topic that I was trying to research. I reading a book called "Checktail Clan" It's about the 325 Fighter Group. I reading about the air battles over Bucharest in 1944 and I thought the defenders of that capital city of Romania was only the Romanian Air Force. They flew Bf-109Gs as well as their home made IAR-80s. But I was wrong. The Luftwaffe was on this too.

Sincerely,

Edward L. Hsiao