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Death of Maj Kurt Schede I/KG 50
Thanks to Matti, it would appear that the above and his crew were lost on 16 Jan 43 in a He 177 A-1, 15233, E8+FH. The cause is stated as being force-landed at Gumrak due to fighter attack or possibly during mission to Poljakowka crashing ca. 3 km nordwestl.d. Talovoy-Schlucht or 'Am boden beim LKW Transport volltreffer einer schweren bombe' Can anyone unravel how he and his crew were killed?
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Re: Death of Maj Kurt Schede I/KG 50
Hi Chris,
'Am boden beim LKW Transport volltreffer einer schweren bombe' would mean something like: on the ground during a transport on a lorry by a direct hit of a heavy bomb"... |
Re: Death of Maj Kurt Schede I/KG 50
That is my understanding which in this case doesn't make sense
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Re: Death of Maj Kurt Schede I/KG 50
My take:
Schede and crew killed when a truck they were being transported in was hit by a heavy bomb. L. |
Re: Death of Maj Kurt Schede I/KG 50
The only reference to Poljakowka I could find was as a distict of Davlekanovo in the republic of Baschkortostan well away from the Mission to Gumrak on the GQM. However Talovoy came up as being next to Gumrak so I take the location as 3km. N/W of the Talovoy Gorge/Gulch. The usual cause quoted for the loss of Maj Schede is crashed in flames following engine fire. Is it possible he crash landed and was killed when the truck sent to pick them up was bombed ?
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Re: Death of Maj Kurt Schede I/KG 50
Now you understand my confusion especially as he was linked to He 177 A-1, 15233, E8+FH!
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Re: Death of Maj Kurt Schede I/KG 50
Quadrant WNW of Stalingrad :
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Re: Death of Maj Kurt Schede I/KG 50
udf_00 , thanks for the map which neatly ties up the locations.
Regards Brian Bines |
Re: Death of Maj Kurt Schede I/KG 50
According to Dmitry Degtev and Dmitry Zubov (item 30 of Chapter 4 of the book “Hitler's Air Bridges: The Luftwaffe's Supply Operations of the Second World War”): “the fate of Major Kurt Schede became clear only after seventy-four years. At the end of 2016, the wreckage of a He 177 was found on the ravine near the village of Talovaya Balka (Svitlovodsky district of the Kirovograd area, now in Ukraine)”.
According to the Russian historians, only small fragments of the German bomber were found, but some included the nameplates and badge of the pilot, thus confirming this was the machine of Major Kurt Schede and his crew. Due to the bad weather at Zaporozhye, the crew may have opted to land at the reserve field, in Kirovograd. Apparently, the Bordfunker radioed that the airplane was fired at by anti-aircraft guns (AA), near Polyakovka, and crashed soon afterwards. The probable cause of their loss would be, therefore: “friendly fire”. Does anyone knows the Historians who have dig out the remains of Major Schede and of his machine? Are there images of those items found on the place where the wreckage was found? Was he re-buried accordingly? What are the news from the Ukraine area about this He 177 finding? Adriano |
Re: Death of Maj Kurt Schede I/KG 50
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All reports so far indicate Schede's aircraft went down very close to Stalingrad. I can't see how it is possible his aircraft can be located near a place called Talovaya Balka I can't find that place, but something called Balka Talovaya instead. Same place? Whatever the case, Kirovograd area is nowhere near Stalingrad. B Rgds Stig |
Re: Death of Maj Kurt Schede I/KG 50
I would agree with Stig. German records state he crashed or was killed at 1600hrs at Poljakowka which is nowhere near where this book claims (in fact over 2,000km away)
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This is why I asked the question...the authors inform that evidences (parts of the aircraft, probably the EKM and pilot's badge) were found.
I would be interested to see those images of those evidences they say that exist....and eventually the burial place of the airmen (if they were really found). From where they got this information is a mistery. I do have Schede's NVM but not a hand right now, since am far away from home...and a good picture of this officer (Studio image), hence my interest on his story. Anyway, maybe the authors can add something or someone from the Russian side...I believe that if some parts of his Memorablia were found (EKM, Pilot's Badge) that he deserves a full military funeral on the spot the plane crashed. A. Balka Talovaya Балка Таловая Ravina https://www.google.com.br/maps/place...q1v4?entry=ttu We can see that this place is some 5 km to the East of Kotelnikovo, some Km WSW of now Volgograd (Stalingrad). We know from reports that the weather was not good. If we do follow up the route from Zaporoshye we can see a certain logic to "follow up" the river up to Mariupol, Rostov and then keep following the Don river upstream (VOR = visual over the River). They may have not found the correct place to drop the supplies and may have decided to return by the same route (visual over the river). I can see no historical problems at all on what has been described by the Russian authors so far.... Chris could you inform us where Poljakowka is (or where in WW2)? I have tried to find it on Google maps but got no joy at all.... |
Re: Death of Maj Kurt Schede I/KG 50
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I already asked if Talovaya Balka is the same place as Balka Tolovaya. IF it is, then the statement from the authors it is in the Svitlovodsky district of the Kirovograd area, now in Ukraine can't be correct. This Balka Tolovaya is nowhere near Ukraine unless Ukraine's borders were entirely different in 1943 and we would also need to locate a Kirovograd somewhere in the vicinity, which I can't! Also when it comes to navigation, we are not talking about some newbie here. We are dealing with the CO of a newly formed He 177 bomber unit. Surely that crew would be very experienced even if they were new to the Eastern Front. Finally it would also mean that the Germans themselves had no idea where Schede went down and made up a report based entirely on guesswork. Things just still don't add up to my satisfaction.... Cheers Stig |
Re: Death of Maj Kurt Schede I/KG 50
Chris thanks for the NVM which confirm Poljakowka as the place of death, circa 16:00hs.
The problem is that we do have two versions for the death of Major Schede: 1) That he landed at Gumrak and was killed by a Russian bomb whilst on a truck, on the SSE of Gumrak. (If so his plane would have not being listed as 100% destroyed and missing in action); 2) That he was shot down by AA fire and crashed at Balka Tovalaya (ravina), near Kotelnikovo. It seems that the Bordfunker radioded something about them being hit by Flak...Did the Russians intercepted the radio communication? From where the Russian authors got that information is still a mistery too.... POLJAKOWKA do exist...I found the name on the records of an Infantry Division here: I./Pol 6 marschiert von Russkaja nach Ssewerny und wird mit Eintreffen dort S.D. 454 unterstellt.BUT WHERE is this damned place in this so vast Russian Land ???? and in a Country where the names of towns changed after WW2!!!!!!! CAN a Russian Member of this Board or Ukrainian member of this Board give us a hand, to identify the correct place of this town in WW2? Does Russian members of this board knows for instance from where both Dmitrys got their information that Schede's machine and Memorablia was found? Are there photos of the items found on the crash place? Adriano |
Re: Death of Maj Kurt Schede I/KG 50
Stig,
The problem is that when you use Google maps and digit Talovaya Balka, there are at least 4 similar named places....and no one near the other. One of the 4 is that one near Kirovograd, where the authors said the machine crashed, as informed on the previous message of mine. Of course, if you choose one of the other 3 named places Talovaya Balka, they will not fit here...one such named place is far beyound Moscow and much further South. A. |
Re: Death of Maj Kurt Schede I/KG 50
Death card clearly states Feindflug, and also Vermisst. Later changed to Gefallen.
Junker |
Re: Death of Maj Kurt Schede I/KG 50
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When I enter Talovaya Balka I get two results, both of them spelled Balka Talovaya and none of them in Ukraine... I also get one result for Talovaya (no Balka) and one for Balka (no Talovaya), none of them in Ukraine either. Entering Kirovograd instead I get a place on map spelled Kropyvnytskyi (present name I guess?) If that is the same place I can't see how Schede could have come down there since that would mean a terrible navigation error. This is becoming very confusing..... Cheers Stig |
Re: Death of Maj Kurt Schede I/KG 50
Junker
Agree with you about the NVM. From where the information about him being killed by a bomb on a truck comes from, I do not know....but I have read something about (maybe on De Zeng's LW Files). STIG Balka Tovalaya #1 (North of Kurilovka) https://www.google.com.br/maps/place...t6py?entry=ttu Balka Tovalaya#2 (North of Volgograd or Stalingrad - East of Shirokov) https://www.google.com.br/maps/place...v2kj?entry=ttu Balka Tovalaya #3 (NE of Glubokii - East of Luhanski) https://www.google.com.br/maps/place...sb3b?entry=ttu Balka Tovalaya #4 (some 5km East of Kotelnikovo - seems to be THIS ONE) https://www.google.com.br/maps/place...q1v4?entry=ttu Adriano |
Re: Death of Maj Kurt Schede I/KG 50
I have written from the NVM at WASt the following:
1943-01-16, 1./KG 50, He 177 A-1, 15233, E8+FH, Bei Gumrak Flugzeugführer Major Schede, Kurt Kampfbeobachter Uffz Knehr, Maximilian Bordfunker Ofw Hentschel, Hans Bordmechaniker Fw Langenberg, Fritz Bordschütze Obgfr Gajewski, Josef Bordschütze Uffz Müller, Anton Notlandung infolge Jägerbeschuß. Bruch 100 %. Besatzung verstorben am Boden beim LKW-Transport durch Volltreffer einer schweren Bombe. Matti |
Re: Death of Maj Kurt Schede I/KG 50
Dear Matti,
Thank you so much for adding this information from WASt, which confirm what has been written on De Zeng Files. The dead cards Chris Goss shared with me (from the full crew) do confirm that the time or their dismiss at circa 16:00hs and 3 Km NW of Poljakowka. We know the weather was not particularly good. From the 5 machines from FKG 50, two returned with mechanical problems, one did not find the target and returned and only one completed the sortie. The machine of Major Schede was totally destroyed. From the information you wrote, they apparently belly landed (we do not know where) and were being carried to Gumrak by truck when hit by a heavy bomb (either hit by the V.V.S. or shelled by Artillery - which is not clear). Can any Russian friend or member of this board can point us where is Poljakowka on a WW2 map? Maybe this would give us a clue to where they belly landed or where killed. What seems strange from the book I mentioned earlier is that it looks like the EKM or Pilot's Badge of Major Schede would have been found, thus confirming his identity and solving the mistery where he was killed (actual place). This is why it seems interesting to check from where this information comes from. And if those items were found they were probably photographed or are circuling around. Matti, your information is quite interesting. Most probably the Russians were not aware that the He 177 was in operations. It would be nice to see if such a claim was submitted or how (what they registered) the Russian fighter pilots claimed that particular day. Also the hour (16:00hs) informed on the dead cards may lead us to other interpretations...if this is the time they were hit on the LKW by a russian shell (Artillery) or heavy bomb (V.V.S.?). If so, they may have belly landed quite a lot of hours before....Sadly we do not have the time of take off from the 5 machines from FKG 50 (From Zaporoshye). Matti, thank you again for your most valuable help on this Board (Forum) and particularly onto this thread. Most humbly yours, Adriano |
Re: Death of Maj Kurt Schede I/KG 50
Start of Schede's aircraft was 07.52. Therefore it seems that 16.00 was time of their death and not of their belly landing.
Matti |
Re: Death of Maj Kurt Schede I/KG 50
The death registration card at Fold3.com also says “gegen 16.00 Uhr bei [?] Poljakowka. He is listed as missing but this has been corrected in red to say “… gefallen Meld. RLM den [?] 21.4.43”.
That suggests to me that something happened in between to confirm his death, such as discovery of his body. Sighting aircraft wreckage wouldn’t be enough on its own to change the verdict of missing. I know in the West both sides notified casualties via the Red Cross, but in the East? |
Re: Death of Maj Kurt Schede I/KG 50
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Interesting that a search on google maps turns out different responses depending on where you are... Whatever the case, none of them are in Ukraine and if the data given by Matti are correct, there is no way Schede and crew would have been taken from any of those located places and transported into the Stalingrad pocket. I think we can now safely conclude that whatever was found in 2016 at a place called Talovaya Balka was not that of Schede and his crew. Stig |
Re: Death of Maj Kurt Schede I/KG 50
To bring this to a close, I have been sent this by another source which was originally supplied by a Flak officer at the time:
"On January 16, around 1200hrs, an Air Force major arrived in a pilot's blue station wagon to the makeshift infirmary in Yeshovka, 7 km south of Gumrak. He asked me where he could take two wounded crew members for medical care. The major also made the following statements: He was the Gr Kdr of an He 177 unit and had only been in Zaporozhye for a few days. He was attacked by six fighters and forced to belly land after the supply bombs were dropped. Two of his crew were wounded, one slightly and the other seriously. His crew behaved in an exemplary manner. He had to destroy his plane. He also asked about a connection to the VIII Air Corps and wanted to go to Gumrak Air Base himself. Then he left".Therefore the Ukranian crash is not Schede's and in any case how could his EKM etc be in an aircraft which was destroyed by him after crash-landing? |
Re: Death of Maj Kurt Schede I/KG 50
Thanks Chris!!
Cheers Stig |
Re: Death of Maj Kurt Schede I/KG 50
Chris,
That's indeed is full documental evidence about what happened to his crew and I believe that this close (in a fantastic way) the matter. What has been the sources of the Russian authors, I do not know. This is why I asked if photos of the EKM or Pilot's Badge existed...or of the wreckage, therefore confirming their version. I only quoted what they wrote on their book, which raised new options and versions to Schede's dismise. HOWEVER, we can not discard that Russian researchers may have found the actual place where the He 177 belly landed and was burned (apparently by the German crew). Whatever the sources for the Russians' authors quoting seems "foggy" and not totally clear. Thanks Chris for those new information. A. |
Re: Death of Maj Kurt Schede I/KG 50
Adriano -
If you will look at a battle map of Stalingrad for ~ 16 January 1943, preferably a German military map in 1 : 100,000 scale, you will see that the city was completely surrounded. So, if Gumrak airfield sent a truck out to the crash site, they couldn't have gone very far. I have such a map in that scale and Gumrak out to a radius of ~ 15 km. to the north, west and south, is infested with place names typed in very fine print. Unfortunately, I cannot magnify (zoom) my computer image enough to read these place names, but my guess is that you will find "Poljakowka" among them. I don't think it was more than a few kilometers from Gumrak. This is consistent with the 10th September 2023 10:30 post above by Chris. L. deZ. |
Re: Death of Maj Kurt Schede I/KG 50
Thanks for that Chris. It's unusual to get such a clear answer to a question.
For those who have copies of Robert Forsyth's "To Save an Army", you'll see on page 232 that he has Schede dying after crash in flames at "Poljakawa", on his return flight. However, on page 247 he quotes a letter home from a I./FKG 50 airman dated 18 January and ending: "Unfortunately there is still no news of Major Schede who has been missing for three days". If the arithmetic is inaccurate, then it does show that it took some time to learn what had happened, as the death card suggests. Interestingly, there is a Poliakova Street in Zaporizhia, Ukraine (47°50'53.60"N / 35°13'55.87"E) according to Google Earth. This is about 5 km WSW of the present-day airport so a connection with I./FKG 50 seems possible (billets or command post?). |
Re: Death of Maj Kurt Schede I/KG 50
If anyone needs to know the source:
Quelle: BArch Abteilung PA Berlin Bericht von Lt. Erich Righi (I./FlakRgt 37) und Stabsarzt Dr. Trurnit (I./FlakRgt 241) |
Re: Death of Maj Kurt Schede I/KG 50
Chris thanks for the source at BAMA. I will surely have a loot at it.
Guess I found PULJAKOWKA, between the red rectangle and the name of Stalingrad onto this map (high up). So, he may have been killed with his crew around this area. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Stalingrad.jpg |
Re: Death of Maj Kurt Schede I/KG 50
OBS: look at it.
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