197 Sqn, D-Day - target reference?
 

Hello everyone

On June 6th 1944 197 Squadron's Typhoons attacked a target described as 'GHQ Target XII/30, SE of Bayeux' in the ORB Form 540.

Can anyone help with pinpointing the reference at all?

Regards

Simon

Re: 197 Sqn, D-Day - target reference?
 

The next link describes an attack on a German Hign Command Headquarters in a Chateau near Bayeux.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peop...a1143901.shtml



Other sites say the low level attack included eight aircraft from 197 squadron led by Wing Commander Baker.

Here the location is described as “Chateau Le Parc” SE of Bayeux. Also attacked by other Typhoon units was a Chateau near St Lo. I think the attack near St Lo was against General Marcks HQ.

https://books.google.com/books?id=w2...eauffe&f=false

Unfortunately, I can not find any other references to a "Chateau le Parc" SE of Bayeux. I don't think the name is "correct", but maybe it will give someone a clue.

Also a mention here:
https://books.google.com/books?id=bL...yphoon&f=false

Re: 197 Sqn, D-Day - target reference?
 

Brilliant, many thanks indeed for the links - that seems to be the one.

The ORB Form 541 confirms that eight Typhoons led by W/C Baker took off at 0710 for 'low level bombing on G.H.Q. Target XII/30, S.E. of Bayeux'.

The Form 540 states that 197 Sqn shared 'two bombing shows on enemy territory' with 266 Sqn. Two sections from 197 Sqn attacked their 'show', one led by W/C Baker, the other by S/Ldr Taylor.

Regards

Simon

Re: 197 Sqn, D-Day - target reference?
 

The other attack that morning, near St Lo is discussed a little in this thread.
http://www.dday-overlord.com/forum/juin-t7349.html


'Le six juin, Yves Ezanno, Français Libre de la première heure, ancien du groupe Lorraine et muté au 198 squadron de la 2nd TAF équipé de Typhoon avait pour objectif le 6 juin, le château de La Meauffe au nord-est de Saint-Lô, siège du 84ème Corps d’Armée allemand. Douze Typhoon l’attaquent à la roquette et à leur départ le château est en flammes.'

Re: 197 Sqn, D-Day - target reference?
 

I've been trying to pin down where 'Chateau le Parc' actually is. Google doesn't bring anything up of that name, but I've got three candidates so far:

1. Chateau de Bellefontaine, just under a kilometre SE from the centre of Bayeux on the D613, now a hotel. This looks the most promising so far.

2. Chateau d'Audrieu, about 5 miles SE of Bayeux, and the scene of a massacre of Canadian POWs on June 8th 1944. Also now a hotel.

3. Chateau de Martragny, about 3 miles SE of Bayeux on the E46, now a campsite.

I've e-mailed the Bayeux Museum of the Battle of Normandy to see if they can help.

Regards

Simon

Re: 197 Sqn, D-Day - target reference?
 

Hello Simon, I'm pretty sure the place you are after is Chateau de Balleroy about 10 miles SE of Bayeux.

Re: 197 Sqn, D-Day - target reference?
 

Thanks for the pointer Bruce. I shall see if I can find anything more.

Regards

Simon

Re: 197 Sqn, D-Day - target reference?
 

Simon, try these links ...

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...phoons&f=false

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...ed=0CCYQ6AEwAQ

Bruce

Re: 197 Sqn, D-Day - target reference?
 

Thanks for the links Bruce. I'd seen the mention of 'Chateau le Parc' in Chris Thomas' book, but thanks for the other link.

Apologies for asking, but what is the link between Chateau le Parc and Chateau de Balleroy?

Regards

Simon

Re: 197 Sqn, D-Day - target reference?
 

I have some notes about the area from 1980 (I don't even recall why now) naming some of the large houses used by various German HQs at that time and this house was, if I read my scribbles correctly, used by one of the artillery commands. This was cross referenced against an army issued map I had access to at the time. Also, not that it means much, our friend Google links the place to searches for 'chateau le parc' plus the location fits.

I am totally prepared to be corrected by anyone who knows better, but that was what came from my digging around back then.

Re: 197 Sqn, D-Day - target reference?
 

Thanks Bruce, much appreciated.

As I mentioned, I've e-mailed the Museum in Bayeux, so will let you know if/when they reply.

Regards

Simon

Re: 197 Sqn, D-Day - target reference?
 

Another idea on this, consider it a "WAG".

On this link there is an Order of Battle for the German artillery units.
http://www.dday-overlord.com/eng/german_artillery.htm

It mentions Artillerie-Kommandeur 474 (PC : Le Parc de la Mare)

Just searching on Google puts one of the Le Parc de La Mare's in:
"Le Parc de la Mare, Lingèvres, France"

This is SE of Bayeux.

Also found this link: http://www.robomod.net/pipermail/soc...er/017100.html



If you search for "le Parc de la Mare" on that page, there is this statement:

"Also, the coast artillery batteries of H.K.A.A.
1260 were under control of ARKO 474 at Le Parc de la Mare (Monts-en-
Bessin, 20 kilometers southwest of Caen)."

Now Monts-en-Bessin is a little further south of Lingevres, but in the same area.

What strikes me is the statement that the ARKO 474 is the command unit for some of the coastal artillery batteries.
That would seem a worthwhile target. Perhaps "Chateau le Parc" is a miss-statement of "Le Parc de La Mare."


The other thing odd about all of this is that I cannot find any references from the German point of view of these two Typhoon attacks on the morning of June 6. That makes me wonder if the attacks actually hit the "right" targets.

Re: 197 Sqn, D-Day - target reference?
 

Interesting! I've found a reference to Parc de la Mare in the book 8th Battalion Durham Light Infantry 1939-1945, which mentions it being about a mile to the south-east of Lingevres.

They took the Lingevres-Tilly road for 3/4 mile, then south along a minor road to Parc del Mare. There they encountered a pary of germans, who took cover in a large house known as the Chateau du Cordillon.

Regards

Simon

Re: 197 Sqn, D-Day - target reference?
 

James Kyle seems to have had a ball!!

{Target near Bayeux}

Tim

Did I ever mention that, in his book - Typhoon Tale - he had a cross over my head in the squadron photograph. So I invited him to lunch. In the second edition of the book the cross was replaced with a tick!!

Re: 197 Sqn, D-Day - target reference?
 

Hello Tim

A little off-topic, but what dates were you with 197 Squadron?

Regards

Simon

Re: 197 Sqn, D-Day - target reference?
 

Simon,

I have done a little digging to try and make sense out the 2nd attack, supposedly on the Gen Marcks headquarters. I think I have found where the bombing actually took place and it was not his headquarters. It was a chateau used by the Germans, located at La Meauffe, called variously Chateau St Gilles or Viel. You can copy/paste these into Google Maps and in satellite view zoom right into the location.
49.174621, -1.114393

General Marcks headquarters (or at least where he lived) was in a townhouse just in or outside of St Lo at this location. The headquarters were actually in a bunker, which may have been on the property.

49.120298, -1.094143

You can put the above into Google Maps and if you switch to street view by moving the little yellow man to that exact location you can see the gate exactly is it is shown in this 1944 photo. You may need to move a little in street view to get the right view. In particular, try to get on the west side of the street and look east toward the gate. The Gate is to the east. Compare the Gate from 1944 to today. A few changes (the top "balls" have been removed) but clearly the same gate with the 3 "plaque" decorations on the right side and house roof in the background.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/photos...ie/9631605212/

The description on the photo is of a GI just outside of Gen Marcks headquarters in St Lo. You can click the photo to enlarge.

This all makes sense as when you look at the "diary" of the headquarters for D-day, there does not seem to be a mention of any fighter-bomber attack. Also the fact that many people visit the headquarters "in" St Lo during the 6th seems to place the headquarters nowhere near La Meauffe. It certainly was not a "smoking ruin" on the 6th.


I think maybe? La Meauffe may be where Rommel stayed during one of his May inspections. The Resistance would have reported that visit to the Allies. There has to be some reason it was hit.

Re: 197 Sqn, D-Day - target reference?
 

The reason I'm alive, Simon, is that I was only with 197 from February to September 1943.

Tim

Re: 197 Sqn, D-Day - target reference?
 

I have searched what documentation I have to hand and can find no other reference to the target other than "GHQ SE Bayeux".

I have a 1:25000 map of the area which reveals quite a number of chateaux, non named "le Parc". However, there is a group of buildings, arranged in a rectangle and at the end of a drive, at the western edge of Le Mesnil-Patry, about 15 km SE of the centre of Bayeux and labelled "le Parc". Looks good to me.
CT

Re: 197 Sqn, D-Day - target reference?
 

"8 Typhoons. 197 Squadron. Dive-bombed chateau in France (076752) 15 x 500 M.C. from 200 ft. 2 hits."

Reference 076752 should help pin-point the location.

Stephen

Re: 197 Sqn, D-Day - target reference?
 

Stephen that seems like a legitimate reference but when I run it through the likely grid squares, (probably on French Lambert Zone 1, or even Nord de Guerre) see
http://www.echodelta.net/mbs/eng-overview.php

I cannot get any square to give a "good" location SE of Bayeux. Perhaps others will have better luck. Where did you find the reference?

Re: 197 Sqn, D-Day - target reference?
 

Thank you once again foer the replies everyone.

Stephen - I too am having trouble pinning down the reference you gave. Can you let us know the source?

Regards

Simon

Re: 197 Sqn, D-Day - target reference?
 

Daily intell reports as submitted by the squadrons.

Re: 197 Sqn, D-Day - target reference?
 

Just for grins, I tried running vT876752 on the French Lambert Zone 1 grid. (Maybe an "8" got changed to a "0"). This comes up with a location roughly SE of Bayeux, but more interesting are the Street Names and related names in the area. "Le Grand Parc". Coincidence? Perhaps but very interesting. There is a hotel/ (maybe a B&B) there called "Le Grand Parc"


The area is here 49.240036, -0.580697 on Google Maps.

Re: 197 Sqn, D-Day - target reference?
 

Ha, I tried that method without success, but didn't think to change the 0 to 8!

La Cuilette du Grand Parc certainly looks quite Chateau-esque:

http://www.bienvenue-a-la-ferme.com/...0x600/5718.jpg

http://www.bienvenue-a-la-ferme.com/...00/gite_31.jpg

http://www.bienvenue-a-la-ferme.com/...0x600/5717.jpg

Regards

Simon

Re: 197 Sqn, D-Day - target reference?
 

I suspected there might have been an issue with the coordinates. After-all a lot was going on during the early morning of the 6th, but all of the fighter-bomber squadrons were given targets to attack so somewhere, the correct info for 197's target exists.

Re: 197 Sqn, D-Day - target reference?
 

I sent off a speculative e-mail to La Cuilette du Grand Parc yesterday, and received this reply, translated from the French:

"Indeed Le Grand Parc was a German communications center. There are two bunkers there and foundations of a transmitting antenna and a receiving antenna. It was a goal [target?] of 6 June. The English arrived on 7th."

Simon

Re: 197 Sqn, D-Day - target reference?
 

Simon, that is most interesting.

Since they seem to be willing to respond, I guess you could ask them very specifically if the place was attacked by fighter bombers (Typhoons) around 8:00 am on June 6th. I wonder if they have any photos of how the place looked before or just after the attack?

Re: 197 Sqn, D-Day - target reference?
 

I'm busy gathering some information to send them, and was going to ask those very questions, amongst others. I'll let you know how I get on.

I've had no reply from the Museum at Bayeux so far, by the way.

Regards

Simon

Re: 197 Sqn, D-Day - target reference?
 

Simon,

I gather no news on any of this? I think that this area was the "goal" of the 69th Infantry Brigade on June 6th. After landing on Gold Beach, they were suppose to take Saint-Leger (on the Bayeux-Caen road) by the evening of June 6th, but only made it to Coulombs. They took the area on June 7th. Perhaps that is all the Grand Parc people meant to say.

Re: 197 Sqn, D-Day - target reference?
 

No, no news as yet. It's a busy time for the owners of La Cuilette, but they tell me they have documents about the ground attack in the area, and will scan them when they get some spare time.

Regards

Simon

Re: 197 Sqn, D-Day - target reference?
 

A quick update. I sent off an e-mail to the RAF Museum, asking if they had any info. They replied that they didn't, but helpfully suggested that the information may lie within the AIR 37 series of files at the National Archives.

The owner of 'La Cueillette du Grand Parc' also sent over some documentation, including some aerial photos. They're taken sometime just after the war by the look of them, and show the remains of a German barracks, some destroyed buildings and the foundations of an incomplete bunker.

He also sent over some pages from the War Diary of the 7th Gordon Highlanders, in which it describes the unit being fired upon from a 'Fortified Farm' at Le Parc, and gives the reference 878752. The 7th G.H. withdrew, and Le Parc was 'successfully engaged by H.M.S. Orion.'

Another document from May 1944 describes the Le Parc with the reference 8775: 'A double wire fence has been thrown around these farm buildings (probably with mines in between) and inside the enclosure a pillbox and fire posts have been made. The position is presumably designed to cover the nearby D.F. Station.'

One more item he scanned and sent over was an extract from the book 'Gold Beach' by Simon Trew, describing the actions of the Green Howards of June 7th(?), who met opposition at a 'German radio station south of Coulombs...[a] well fortified position...[with] a garrison of 50 Luftwaffe personnel.'

Regards

Simon