SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

The Dornier Do24 Units publication shows the loss of CM+IE with pilot Uffz Paul Losing and CM+IJ as both shot down by Split. CM+IJ is confirmed on the Do24 site as shot down on the above date but no details shown. Are crew details known for these two please, I could not find them in the GQM lists ,

Brian Bines

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

Two Do 24 Aircraft were reported lost this day, 1. November 1943.
6. Seenotstaffel lost Do 24T-3 W.Nr. 2104 KK+LQ when shot up by strafing enemy aircraft while moored in Spalato (Split) harbour. No casualties reported.

7. Seenotstaffel lost Do 24T-2 W.Nr. 991 GM+IJ. Shot Down by enemy aircraft during a rescue flight from Spalato (Split) harbour to Venice with 16 wounded personnel on board. The area was reported as Pl.Qu. 6451/14 Ost. All on board were killed:
Uffz. Paul Lösing (F), Hptm. Herbert Basse (B), Fw. Johann Sabatier (Bf), Uffz. Paul Baars (Bm), Uffz. Paul Feist (Bm), + 16 wounded personnel and one nurse,
(Herbert Basse was promoted to Hauptmann on 1. April 1943. None of the crewmembers mentioned above, is mentioned in the list of personnel of 7. Seenotstaffel in Horst Thürlings book about this unit. They probably all belonged to 6. Seenotstaffel. The aircraft was reported as belonging to 7. Seenotstaffel.

I would assume that these two accodents are linked in some way. Can someone give further details.

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

Seaplanes, thank you very much for supplying these loss details,

Best Regards
Brian Bines

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

Source http://www.dornier24.com/ has WNr.991 as CM+IE etc.

Is this an error?

Regards
Peter van Gogh

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

Ηι.
there were not GM+I...by Seenotstaffel 7 but only CM+I...

byron

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

W.Nr.991 was shot down by 1/Lt Stanley Lancaster of 57.FG. The other Do 24 was strafed by nine P-40's of 57.FG in Split/Spalato harbor.

Cheers,
Boris

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

Thank you for additional information. Do 24 W.Nr. 991 and 992 I have with St.kz. GM+IJ and GM+IK respectively. They were the first two Do 24 delivered by SNCAN at Sartrouville outside Paris (formerly the CAMS-Potez factory) assembled mainly from parts delivered by Aviolanda. W.Nr. 991 was delivered on 30. November 1942 and 992 on 7. February 1943. The first true French-built Do 24, W.Nr. 1001 GI+GO, was delivered on 17. April 1943.
I know there are different opinions about the St.kz. of 991 and 992. Some have CM+IE and CM+IF.

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

Thanks Guys for the additional information. It would seem that one Do 24 KK+LQ 2104 was strafed in the harbour and only one was shot down the aircraft of Uffz.Paul Losing. Looking at the Do24 site CM+IE wn 991(RLM 0039 ) is shown as being shot down over Spilt while CM+IS wn 996(RLM 0044) is just listed as being delivered to the Seenodienst with no other info. I could not find any other dates for incidents involving 0039 or 0044 which might have settled the matter. It would be tempting to go with CM+IE wn 991 as Losing's a/c but info. from Seaplanes is always really good ,

Regards
Brian Bines

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

Guys

The Do 24 site mentioned has basically all its production data from the book
Dornier 24 by Pieter van Wijngaarden and Prudent Staal.

In that book they list part of the CM+Ix STKZ twice, with different STKZ!

On pages 110 - 114 they say the following
Aviolanda built: AVIO 108 (RLM WNr 0035) to AVIO 116 (RLM WNr 0043) were CM+IA to CM+II
SNCAN assembled c/n 991 (RLM WNr 0044) was CM+IJ
Aviolanda built: AVIO 117 (RLM WNr 0045) to AVIO 132 (RLM WNr 0060) were CM+IK to CM+IZ.

On page 122 they say
RLM WNr 991 to RLM WNr 1000 were CM+IE to CM+IN

Both cannot be correct!
Why the site has opted for connecting the listed RLM WNr 991-1000 with the Aviolanda built examples and not the other way around, is something I don't know. No idea which is correct either.

To me it seems the two authors has not fully understood the production numbers they had access to and to solve it I think Seaplanes should see what his sources says. If Matti is around maybe he can check the NVM (if it exists)?

Cheers
Stig

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

My Sources for the French Production at SNCAN is:
Report dated 12. December 1944 by Lieut. M.A. Moit, USMC on the Production of Dornier Do 24 Flying Boat in France. This report include a "Tableau CLE des immatriculations d'appareils Do 24 suivant". This list include the internal W.Nr. by SNCAN and the corresponding RLM W.Nr.
SNCAN W.Nr. RLM W.Nr.
1-2 991-992
3-12 1001-1010
13-17 1031-1035
18-27 1056-1065
28-32 1071-1075
33-40 1101-1108
41-47 1131-1137
48-57 1151-1160
Unfortunately the St.kz. are not listed.
The second main Source is the KTB's of Gen.d.Lw.b.Ob.d.M./O.Qu
monthly from september 1939 up to June 1944.

In addition to the book by Wijngaarden and Staal, there is another book containing an Aviolanda production list "Verkennen en Bewaken, Dornier Do 24K vliegbooten van de Marineluchtwaartdienst" by N. Gweldhof, s'Gravenhage 1979. Both books contain a number of clear errors.

Finally, the St.kz. in the series CM+IA to CM+IZ was used on the RLM W.Nr. 0035 to 0060, all produced by Aviolanda. I have no knowledge from contemporary documents about the internal W.Nr. apparently used by Aviolanda, or if this was made up by somebody decades ago.

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

Post#7: I have WNr 1001 as CI+GO not GI+GO. The block GI+G_ are Ju 88 G-6 as far as I know.

To muddy the whole issue: for KK+LQ I have WNr. 2126; WNr. 31047 and WNr. 1047 what is correct?

Regards,
Norbert

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

Thanks Björn

Very valuable information indeed. Thanks for the SNCAN numbers and the corresponding RLM WNr!!

Indeed I have also wondered why there would be any connection between Aviolanda and SNCAN (why would RLM issue two WNr for the same aircraft (ie 0044/991). As you quite rightly say, the so called c/n of Aviolanda is now really put into doubt and I am not sure what to do with them.
If Nico Geldhof is correct in his book, Aviolanda used their own c/n up to 73 (the last Do 24 accepted by MLD). Possibly someone then made an educated guess and assumed Aviolanda continued to issue such numbers. If they did, no idea, but the listing in Wijngaarden/Staal's book now seems rather suspect.

Thanks also for confirming the STKZ batch CM+IA to CM+IZ and that it had nothing to do with the SNCAN production.

Moving over to the SNCAN production.
It seems to me the first ones (WNr 991-1001) were CI+GE to CI+GO.
Norbert seems quite adamant that he's got it right....:)
Any comments on those?

Cheers
Stig

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

Hi Norbert and all others In the KK+L? block I have also many conflicts.
To me its looks like that the RLM has given some blocks for the Do24 but that a clerk of the factory used them 2 times, or an attempt tho confuse the enemy perhaps ?
Cheers
Peter

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

Thanks!
Those darn clerks.....

Regards,
Norbert

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

The KK+L series of St.kz. was split on two different production runs.
First the KK-LA to KK+LE was used on W.Nr. 1031 to 1035 produced by SNCAN in France. Then there is a gap from KK+LF to KK+LM to which I have no references. Then KK+LN to KK+LZ was used by Fokker-assembled Do 24T-3 aircraft from W.Nr. 2101-2105 (KK+LN - KK+LR), 2111-2113 (KK+LS - KK+LU), 21?? (KK+LV) and finally W.Nr. 2132 - 2135 (KK+LW - KK+LZ).
Hope this will clear the matter.

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

Friends

Scrap my theory about CI+GE to CI+GN being WNr 991-1000.
Were making a SNCAN list and of course then noticed 993-1000 are missing from the document compiled by Lt M.A. Moit. I feel it unlikely they were issued anywhere else, so can I assume those WNr were not built?

According to Jean Pierre Dubois 52 SNCAN built Do 24 were delivered to Luftwaffe (22 in 1943 and 30 in 1944). I have asked him if he has found any STKZ details in French archives and await his answer to that.

With regard to M.A. Moit's list, at least I have a problem, and that is WNr 1100.
This is stated to have had STKZ DT+HB but is not included by him. Does anyone have anything on that aircraft or should we consider it to be a red herring?

As usual Björn, thanks for your KK+Lx listings. Anyone else who knows anything about KK+LF to KK+LM? The old LEMB listings seems to be based upon old information....

Cheers
Stig

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

Hi Stig, I have the following info to your questions:
1. W.Nr. 993-1000 were never used in the Do 24 production by SNCAN or anyone else.
2. The total number of French built Do 24 differ in the two sources I have.
In the RLM Aircraft Production program Nr. 227 of 15.12.1944, the total number of French built Do 24's are given as 47 aircraft. In the US Navy report by Lt. M.A. Boit, the total number is quoted as 54 aircraft. However, two of these crashed before being accepted by the Luftwaffe, leaving the total to 52 aircraft.
3. W.Nr. 1000 was never built. I have 1101 as DH+HC, 1102 as DH+HD and 1103 as DH+HE.

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

The KK+LM is mentioned twice:
1.) FB Wodrig with W.Nr.1003, flights in Schellingwoude and note "SNCAN"
2.) FB Erdmann with Seenotstaffel 9

Regards
Rasmussen

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

post 17 DH+HD source expired Ebay

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/attach...1&d=1438972064

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

Many thanks for info.
To Rasmussen: Can you give any dates for the log-book entries.
I consider two log-books as good evidence for the existence of a KK+LM.

To Gogh: That photo should rule out the DH+H-- as Do 24 St.kz.

best regards to you both
Seaplanes

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

FB Erdmann:
12.02.1944, Blindflug, Start: Selent 09.50 - Landung: Kiel 11.30, Pilot: Erdmann, Begleiter: not readable

FB Wodrig:
03.03.1944, Einflug, Start/ Landung: 16.10-16.20, 16.28-16.31, 16.35-16.42, Start/ Landung in Schellingwoude, note: 1003, SNC... (the not readable part I completed to SNCAN), Pilot: Gundermann, Begleiter: Flieger Wodrig

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

Hi all

In FB Wodrig I read WNr. 1063 for KK + LM !
The number "6" wasn't clear, but it is a "6" !

The right SKZ for Do 24 / WNo. 1001-1003 was DT + HC - DT + HE.

best wishes
JoMe

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

Thank you Jo-Me. W.Nr. 1063 for KK+LM fits in perfectly.
The same goes for the St.kz. 1101-1103 with DT+HC - DT+HE.
Initially I also had DT+ but years ago someone pursuaded me to change ti DH+.
Thanks again.

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

Post 21 WNr.1003
post 22 WNr.1001-1003 DT+HC to +HE
post 23 WNr.1101-1103 DT+HC to +HE

Confusing

And a remark: Wodrig book was sold on Ebay and on the pages where numbers (serials) wrote with a different pen and handwriting. Could this be added post war with possible faults then ?

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

If you read the postings again there isn't so much confusing ...

post 21: I've read "1003" (my interpretation) ... it could it be "1063" too (like JoMe wrote isn't clear to read and it seems "1063" fits better).

post 22 and 23: They have to say who is correct ...

Of course it's possible that's an after war add but it could be an war add from another clerk at the same time too ... who know it ...

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

All

My apologies for not getting back on this interesting topic. The autumn bird-watching season is now in full swing and with juveniles and rutting parents all around, also that much more difficult....:o... and interesting! ;)

Again, thanks very much for the additional STKZ details and also the additional explanations regarding SNCAN.

Seaplanes, I will send you a private message.

Cheers
Stig

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

Hi Seaplanes
I want to thank you for the info on the SNCAN production very interesting. Are you certain of the Stkz GM+IJ - GM+IK for 991 - 992? I have this Stkz block with Go 242A production. Is it not possible that the CN+IJ often quoted as being the Stkz for 991 as being the most likely. This was allocated to W/Nr 44 this was not assigned to the Lw but was sent to SNCAN at Sartrouville as a pattern a/c and according to the list given in a Dutch publication assigned the W/Nr FS 1. As 991 & 992 were all built using parts from the Fokker plant could W/Nr 44 (FS 1) be the 1st production a/c at Sartrouville W/Nr 991 still retaining it's original Stkz CN+IJ.
The CIOS report also gives the interesting details that 127 a/c were planned to be built there until Sept.1945 it gives the further W/Nrs up until construction no 102
58 - 64 - 1178 to 1184; 65 - 72 - 1201 to 1208; 73 - 76 - 1221 to 1224;
77 - 86 - 1231 to 1240; 87 - 89 - 1253 to 1255; 90 - 97 - 1271 to 1278;
98 - 102 - 1301 to 1305;
This includes the 2nd contract order for 50 aircraft to be built up to April 1945. The rest were 21 a/c up until August 1945 with the last order of 6 a/c to be completed Sept.1945.
Lastly I am trying to find the W/Nr for the Stkz DT+HB. DT+HA is 1075 with DT+HC to DT+HE as W/Nr 1101 to 1103. Also I have a reference that BJ+FE has the W/Nr 1104 but cannot find the source for this. Has anybody any ideas? Plus you have KK+LV without a W/Nr? It is most likely that this was W/Nr 2131.
If anybody can add anything then please do. Many Thanks
Regards - Tom Willis

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

Tom

Interesting stuff. However I don't follow you regarding the double WNr issue you list. Can you explain them?

I always thought those you list as 58-102 were the RLM issued ones (0058 to 0102), but now you introduce 1178-1305 (with black out blocks). What are they?

Cheers
Stig

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

Hi Stig
Thanks for the reply - I was always under the impression that the topic under discussion was the SNCAN production of the Do24 at Sartrouville. The list that I gave for the numbers 58 to 102 are the SNCAN factory contruction numbers and the 1178 to 1305 were the projected RLM W/Nrs. These were never built (at least under German control) as the factory was overun by the Allied advance. The French continued building these and at least 40 were built. The SNCAN 1st order was for 52 a/c and the 2nd order was for 50 a/c (102 in total) to be completed by April 1945. Two a/c crashed before delivery so 54 were built for the 1st contracted order. Is this okay? There can be a lot of confusion with factory construction numbers and the RLM numbers associated with them. The Fokker/Aviolanda built a/c the RLM 0001 had the Dutch c/n as 74.
The first part of my enquiry was about the RLM W/Nr 044 with the Stkz of CM+IJ shipped in parts to the SNCAN factory as a pattern a/c for the rest of the Do24s to be built there. My argument was that the Aviolanda construction numbers from 108 to 116 (RLM W/Nrs 035 to 043 - CM+IA to CM+II) follow in consequetive order as c/n 117 to 132 (RLM W/Nrs 045 to 060 - CM+IK to CM+IZ). W/Nr 044 - CM+IJ is listed as being shipped to Sartrouville as FS 1 (I think this was 991) as the original W/Nr 044 was assigned the Stkz CM+IJ this was retained when it was given a different W/Nr as being French built but using Dutch components. I can't put in any simpler.

Cheers - Tom Willis

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

Thanks Tom

Sorry, no I did not understand you were back solely on the SNCAN production.
Since these double WNr-c/n-msn are very confusing, you, so to speak, put me a bit offside...:o

I have to start make my own production list of the Do 24 since the one in Wijngarden/Staal's book is now so full of corrections/amendments that I have trouble following what I really mean....:confused:

Cheers
Stig

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

Your not the only one Stig

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

"rutting parents"? Wow, that must be interesting to see! ;)

Stig, I just returned from a 3 week cruise on the Danube, Main and Rhine. Great trip.

I saw my first Goshawks in years and a bunch of Bustards (SP?). The latter are weird birds. Big as our Red-tailed Hawks, but they were just sitting in a field, watching the ground. It had been recently plowed and dragged. Do not know what they were looking for: Voles or mice?

All the ducks, mostly Mallards, know what the river boats mean: food!, and as soon as we slowed down or docked, there they are, begging! They like raisin/oatmeal cookies.....

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

John

Yes birds are interesting. Never seen a European Great Bustard, but plenty of related species in Africa. It eats everything it can swallow, both vegetables and insects, mice and so on. Probably not snakes though...

There are more Mallards around us humans than wild in nature (or so it seems).
The very duck which all of us see. It is interesting to see the rutting male and how look-a-like he becomes the female, but you can tell by his beak and also his/her sound. :)

Redtailed Hawks were plentyful in Yellowstone this summer and we learned the difference between male, female and juveniles. Sometimes very tricky if you ask me...

Cheers
Stig

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

Come! Come! Gentlemen

If we're not discussing aviation, let's talk gentlemanly - how do you find the cricket?

Cheers
Brian

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

Brian

Since I am a gentle man, I simply refuse to discuss such a topic.
I would be banned immediately...:D

Cheers
Stig

Re: SeenotSt.6 Losses 1-11-1943
 

All

Anyone interested can get my WNr list of the Do 24 (for what it may be worth :o )
Send me a private message and your e-mail address and I will forward it to you. Hopefully you have comments with regard to WNr and STKZ

Note, it is a very simple listing with no units or fates except for the Dutch ones.

Cheers
Stig