USAAF losses in June-August 1944
 

I am looking for details of these combats where JG54 claimed significant victories over their USAAF opponents. I believe the times recorded are German so they will be an hour or so out in Allied records.

10.06.44 1420hrs Over Caen 5 P-47
12.07.44 1430hrs Conches 3 P-47
23.07.44 1917hrs SW Paris 8 P-38
06.08.44 1220hrs Pontoise/NW Paris 7 B-24

regards

Keith

Re: USAAF losses in June-August 1944
 

Keith !

British time was equal to German time from April 4th, 1944 until September 17th, 1944.

As it was it in most periods in WW 2 since British double-summertime was most times equal with the German single-summertime

Perhaps, the french governement made changes in the times after the first euphoria following D-day.

Best wishes !

Horst Weber

Re: USAAF losses in June-August 1944
 

Hello Keith,

Re: 10/06/44 - 5 P47's there were in total some 31 P-47 MACR for this date ( 15 at least for the 9th AAF ) not counting accidents and not lost( down in friendly territory).
Re:12/07/44 - 3 P47's
I could only find these three -
42-25718 - O'Reagan, Michael R.
42-76373 - Koslow, Stanley L.
42-76466 - MACR 6879. Blevins, Edward P.
not counting accidents and not lost( down in friendly territory).
Re:23/07/44 - 8 P38's
I could only find the following 6 -
42-67975 - MACR 7021 - Thompson, Carleton E.
43-28411 - MACR 7022 - Gaignat, Charles A.
43-28348 - MACR 7023 - Green, Arthur L.
42-67986 - MACR 7024 - Moirs, Lloyd (NMI).
42-67456 - Burr, Marvin F. Isle of Wight.
42-67943 - Murphy, Leonard (NMI). Isle of Whight.
not counting accidents and not lost( down in friendly territory).
KU report lists give next to nil for the fighters for the above dates as far as I could find.

Good Hunting
Alex

Re: USAAF losses in June-August 1944
 

For the 23 JUL 1944, here is a link to a PDF in french :
www.limours.fr/IMG/pdf/AOUT_1944_2.pdf
14 P-38 bombed the Limours railway station, then between 19.15 & 19.28 combat with 10 Fw 190, losses 4 P-38 & 1 Fw 190.
9th USSAF 370th FG 485th FS
Carleton E. THOMPSON O-758104 P-38 42-67975
Charles A. GAIGNAT, O-26279 P38J-15-LO 43-28411
Arthur L. GREEN, O-758799 P-38 43-28348
Lloyd C. WEINS, O-759133 P-38J-10 42-67986.

Re: USAAF losses in June-August 1944
 

Thanks chaps, interestingly both Koslow and O'Meagher of 510th FS are shown in my source as being involved in taxiing accidents on 12 July rather than air combat so it's not them. Could it be that JG54 got it very wrong?

Re: USAAF losses in June-August 1944
 

Just found an old post by Leo that indicates the 366th FS/358th FG lost 3 P-47s on 12 July 1944 but to JG26 not JG54 and checking my copy of Caldwell's history of JG26 confirms this and that the claims of both groups were at the same time and same location.

Re: USAAF losses in June-August 1944
 

Looking again at the evidence it appears the B-24s claimed by JG54 were Lancasters and Halifaxes on a daylight bombing raid. Can anyone identify the RAF squadrons?

regards

Keith

Re: USAAF losses in June-August 1944
 

Hello,
Thank you UDF OO for the correction re pilot of 42-67986.
I looked again at the MACR and the name Moirs(page 2) is questioned within the report and Weins (page 5) is recorded along with the service number O-759133.

Also for the change from American to RAF for the daylight raid on the 6 Aug 44.
Taken from W.R.Chorley's RAF Bomber Command Losses vol 5, pages 370/1.

6 Aug 44
50 Sqn Lancaster I W4824 "VN-Z" Op: Bois de Cassan.
T/o 0945 Skellingthorpe to raid a flying-bomb storage depot. Crashed near Pontoise in the department of Val d'Oise, where those who died rest in the towns communal cemetery.

83 Sqn Lancaster III ND930 "OL-Q" Op: Bois de Cassan.
T/o 0906 Coningsby to destroy a flying bomb storage site. Shot down by fighters in the vicinity of Pontoise ( Val d'Oise) where all rest in the towns communal cemetery.

83 Sqn Lancaster III PB140 "OL-H" Op: Bois de Cassan.
T/o 0908 Coningsby similarly tasked. Leaving the target area, engaged in running battle with an Fw190 whose repeated attacks inflicted serious damage to the engines, control surfaces and rear turret, wounding P/O Duggin (RAAF) and starting a fire. In the confusion some of the crew baled out. W/O Lester (RAAF) is commemorated on panel 259 of the Runnymede Memorial. Onreaching the south coast Lancaster crash landed 1415 at Ford airfield, Sussex.

93 Sqn Lancaster III ND840 "OF-J" Op: Bois de Cassan.
T/o 0918 Coningsby similarly tasked. Hit by flak which incapacitated F/O Bucknell (RAAF) and crashed at Eaubonne ( Val d'Oise), a small town roughly 14Km ESE of Pontoise. Those who died now lie in Clichy New Communal Cemetery.

From The Bomber Command Bomber Command War Diaries by Middlebrook & Everitt
Page 556
6 August 1944 Flying Bomb Supply Sites
222 aircraft - 107 Lancasters, 105 Halifaxes, 10 Mosquitoes of 4,5 & 8 Groups attacked the Bois de Cassan and Forét de Nieppe sites. 1 Lightning accompanied the Bois de Cassan operation.
Not helpful for us as it does not make clear if this was an AAF Lightning or one of the few used by the RAF, or what happened to it ?

Alex

Re: USAAF losses in June-August 1944
 

Excellent, thanks Alex. I suppose the pilots of III.JG54 weren't used to seeing British 4-engiine bombers and the Halifax and Lancaster tails look a bit like B-24' Apparently several bombers were also heavily damaged, but it does seem like the LW fighter pilots had a bit of a feeding frenzy and imagined they'd done a lot more damage than is evident from RAF records.

Re: USAAF losses in June-August 1944
 

This may have been the first daylight battle between Luftwaffe single-engine fighters and RAF four-engine heavy bombers since 1942.

ADI(K) Report No. 109/1945: Attack on RAF Day Bombers: 12th December 1944, 19 February 1945 [US National Archives RG 165 Entry 79 Box 21] stated that the 12 December events were the first such daylight combat involving Bf 109s and RAF heavy bombers since 1942.

Re: USAAF losses in June-August 1944
 

Hello,

Lancaster III ND840 (F/O G C Bucknell RAAF), was a No.97 Sqn a/c., not 93 Sqn.

The Lightning ?

From Chris Ward's 5 Group Bomber Command: An Operational History (p.93):

The target for the Davey's crew's eleventh operation on the 6th (August 1944), was the storage site at Bois-de-Cassan. The Master Bomber for the occasion was the former 619 Squadron commanding officer, W/C Jeudwine, who favoured a P-38 Lightning as his mode of transport. Unfortunately, communications problems between him and the main force led to confusion, and half of the 200-strong force retained their bombs. The Davey crew were in LM650 KM-T, which took them to the target and back in five minutes short of four hours.

Col.

Re: USAAF losses in June-August 1944
 

Keith you are correct. All pilots in WWII had bad recognition problems. An ME-410 was a Ju 88, Halifaxes were B-24s, ad infinitum. Comes from not studying the photos and silhouettes. Unlike us latter day experten with all kinds of time, they only had 2-5 seconds to get the ID right.

Re: USAAF losses in June-August 1944
 

I would have though the pilots would have seen a similarity between the Halifax and the B-24 but the Lancaster is a bit more unusual. I believe several Halifaxes suffered damage and one was hit by bombs from the formation. According to 2nd TAF Vol.2 a total of 4 Halifaxes, 4 Lancasters, 9 B-24 and a B-17 were claimed by JG26, JG54 and JG5 despite only 4 Lancaster FTR. The veteran Eastern Front groups seem to be most inaccurate in their claims - something that seems to occur a lot with JG54.

Re: USAAF losses in June-August 1944
 

Hello Col,
Thanks for correction, yes it is 97 Sqn, Must have got mixed with the earlier 83 Sqn and thus typo.

Alex

Re: USAAF losses in June-August 1944
 

Hello Keith,
There were other RAF BC losses on the 6th.
BCL Losses/vol5/Chorley.
A Halifax III of 51 Sqn, LW546 "MH-R" Op: Hazebrouck.
T/o 1910 Snaith to attack the railway cemtre. Lost without trace. All are commemorated on the Runnymede Memorial.
AND
From "Though Without Anger" by Colin Cummings page350.
A Halifax III of 298 Sqn, LL334.
Engaged in "Diplomat 9" in support of SAS ops. The a/c was intercepted by an enemy night fighter and shot down, crash landing some 60 Mi SE of Rheims.

Alex

Re: USAAF losses in June-August 1944
 

Keith, it was the 509th FS / 405th FG that lost three P-47Ds to JG54 on 22nd June 1944.

The 509th FS was tasked with providing top cover for the rest of the Group.
During the course of the mission Captain F. B. Kinne leading ‘A’ Flight, as escort to the 511th FS, turned his Flight back towards Dreux to investigate some unidentified aircraft, which turned out to be other P-47Ds. However on their return to catch up with the 511th FS, his Flight was ‘bounced’ by two Focke-Wulf Fw190s which dived to attack from 6 o’clock high, closely followed by a further fifteen plus aircraft from the same Staffel. In the ensuing melee three of the 509th pilots were shot down; Lt E.G. Wilk became a Prisoner of War, Lt F.J. Boryczka avoided capture and returned to his unit on 26th August 1944 but Lt L.G. Zahn was killed. Only Captain Kinne returned, to report what had happened. III/JG 54, claimed these P-47Ds as downed near Dreux-Evreux-Chartes, at exactly the same time as the 509th FS were in the area. Claims were made for the three Thunderbolts by Uffz. Erwin Schleef of 9/JG 54 near Bernay at 21.12 hrs, Ofhr. Gunther Zilling of 9/JG 54 near Bernay at 21.12 and Uffz Otto Venjakob of 7/JG 54) near Evreux 21.22.

A further claim for a P-47D was made by Lt. Hans Dortenmann of 2/JG54 near Rouen at 21.20 but this was further north than the others so almost certainly relates to another action with Allied fighters.

Re: USAAF losses in June-August 1944
 

Hi blokes,

just to help out here from my database...

10.6.44. Believe these were claimed against 78th FG, with at least JG 26 and JG 27 also involved. Massive overclaiming: all up there were about 12-13 claims for only 5 losses. If it helps: 42-23519/HL-S of 83rd FS, 78th FG. Lt. Vincent J Massa KIA is attributed to Hermann Sewerin of 3/JG 27 and 42-76505/HL-V of 83rd FS, 78th FG. Maj. Donald W McLeod evaded is attributed to Ernst Duellberg. Both claims at 1430 German time. The JG 54 claims take place circa 10mins before that.


12.7.44. 366th FS, 358th FG. Overclaiming - only one loss: 42-76466/IA-M of Edward P Blevins KIA over Mesnil-sur-l'Estree. 2 claims by Weiss and one by Dietrich Peuss whereas Heinz Kemethmueller of 4/JG 26 claimed 3 all on his own. Every other P-47 loss that date was not due to enemy action.


23.7.44. 485th FS, 370th FG. 4 losses attributed to fighters. Includes P-38J-15-LOs 42-28348 of 2/Lt. Arthur L Green and 42-28411 of 1/Lt. Charles A Gaignat plus P-38J-10-LOs 42-67975 of 2/Lt. Carleton E Thompson and 42-67986 of 2/Lt. Lloyd O Weins (also given as Lloyd C Weins by some sources). All KIA


6.8.44. I acknowledge that these losses have been very well covered elsewhere in this thread...


Nick

Re: USAAF losses in June-August 1944
 

Excellent, thanks gang. I have Bazi Weiss shooting down a Mustang 1a of 268 Sqn RAF on 22 June 1944 and a P-38 of an unidentified unit on 8.8.44 as well as a B-17 of another 8th AF unidentified unit on 27 May 1944.

Re: USAAF losses in June-August 1944
 

The B-17 is one of 7 lost on 27 May 1944 in the Colmar region at around midday.Possibly of the 351st or 457th BG both of which lost aircraft on that date.

Re: USAAF losses in June-August 1944
 

Not surprising, actually. Multiple gruppen with many inexperienced pilots making attacks on the same bomber 'stream' & probably the same bombers. I'm sure some of the returning bombers were fit for 'scrap'.