Ju 88 L1+NH
 

Hi Guys.
Some of you helped me before with this Ju.
It was found at Gazala about Dec 1942, and then flown to South Africa.
I have just found that a W.Nr. of 2018 was on the nose.
I do not have any gen here in South Africa that can help with W.Nr's, so am asking if this may help you guys who have access to them provide me with further info on A-4 or A-5 and a note of it's loss somewhere.
Thx
Stefaan Bouwer

Re: Ju 88 L1+NH
 

The one taken to S-Africa was an Ju 88 A-4 (Jumo 211J engines, VS Wood props) but this number is just fitting one A-4 in my books by this time frame.

The only A-4 number fitting, produced be that time, W.Nr. (088014)2018 was 1T+KS III/KG 26 already missing (100%) near Spitzbergen 13.09.1942.

Can you post a picture of this 2018?

-Ed

Re: Ju 88 L1+NH
 

Hi Ed.
Photo included.

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/d...psgis4wry3.jpg

Re: Ju 88 L1+NH
 

I have the 142018 (as 2018) in March 1942 in the Junkers repair facility Athen (FRB). In additon, the Ju 88 A-4 in this range were A-4 trop. This fits with the LG 1. See the page of the FB.

I think the Werknummer of the loss with KG 26 is wrong.

Regards
Peter

Re: Ju 88 L1+NH
 

Hi Peter.
Fits in with our one.
At least now we have a W.Nr.
Be good
Stefaan

Re: Ju 88 L1+NH
 

I have from the NVM 142080 for the 8./KG 26 loss on 13 Sep 1942. GQM gives 2018, which seems to be wrong as Peter said.

Matti

Re: Ju 88 L1+NH
 

Hi.
Ed, on another photo I have the numbers 1905/Ju appears on the cowling.
Must have had a Ju 1905 engine on the right side. The cowling looks like it was replaced, as it is in green and the rest in Brown/green blotches.
What is NVM and GQM Matti???
Stefaan

Re: Ju 88 L1+NH
 

Hi Stefaan,
Case seems solved, altho loss report for 2018 seems not have been issued.
Airfield was Tmimi that was "Timimi" / "Gasala" / "Gazala No. 3 Airstrip" but some confusion appears to correct name..

Most likely engine number "1905/Ju" (Ju for Jumo), several cases of this xxx/J are known. J here standing for Jumo 211 J engines, and 2018 has VS Wood props fitting for Jumo 211 J. But the pilot seat seems missing, and general state of plane suggests a spares source.

NVM is the shorthand for the Parent Units (the crew belonged to) Named Aircrew Loss Report documents, GQM is the Luftwaffe Fighting Units Loss report documents (in form of dayly lists - prepared/issued in duplicates) by "4 Abt. Ge.Qu." department. This unit then issued replacement planes.

Re: Ju 88 L1+NH
 

Thx Guys.

Re: Ju 88 L1+NH
 

May I ask perhaps a very stupid question?

Why is everyone sure this is 142018 and not the old 2018 built by Henschel?
I suppose there is an earlier loss report of that one?

I also wonder how to read the FB sent by Peter. Should ALL the WNr listed then be interpreted with the digits 14 in front? If so, makes no sense to me....:confused:

Cheers
Stig

Re: Ju 88 L1+NH
 

Stig, here its experts that know. The other (088)2018 was early Ju 88 A-1 (short wings) version (A-5 if fitted with long wings, and VDM metal props that were narrower, besides other smaller details) and these were not rebuilt into Ju 88 A-4. Period. No earlier loss report is needed as that aircraft simply was not this one.

Aircraft in photo is confiirmed Ju 88 A-4 (by the engines and VS 11 Wood props, and the engine serial on the cowling), and no chance you can not see the detail difference on these two.

None in that logbook are listed in full, the 0880142018 was full number, and 088014xxxx for some, and Ju 88 A-4 088xxxx for some of the others, and there is even an Ju 88 A-5 in there - but many pilots (or FRB workers) just wrote up the short number (painted on them, as in case of 2018, there was but one A-4 2018) and Siebel workers, assemblers of this one, often painted just last two (or four) of the full serial number on them (four mostly later, in factory). The font on number 2018 is consistent with some other repair facilities, besides Athens. Note# Right engine does not have Sand paint, indicating already exchanged, altho, beeing in Greece in March, it simply could have been in "fitting out stage" for desert operations. Possibly the other engine was beiing pulled off or new one not yet installed.

So Stig, look on the bright side. Very few are experts on Ju 88´s and your questions are reasonable.

-Ed

Re: Ju 88 L1+NH
 

Thanks Ed

He, he, no not an expert on anything really, just very interested and curious about a lot of aviation related matters.:)

I had forgotten (didn't think of) that WNr 2018 (Henschel) was an old A-1...:o

Cheers
Stig

Re: Ju 88 L1+NH
 

Where?:D

Good question, Stig.

One can not rule out that the 2018 in the FB was the "old" 2018 built by Arado in 1940. The information in these documents are often very inconsistent. Some of these A-1 (later converted into A-5) flew with the IV./LG 1. Unfortunately I have no information about the fate of the Ju 88/2018.

I've found another source with our Ju 88: A list with flights of the radio operator Rosner at Athens, unfortunately again only as a 4-digit number.
You can find some Ju 88 A-5 in my two attachments.


Regards
Peter

Re: Ju 88 L1+NH
 

Thanks Peter

Not such a bad question then after all:)

My apologies for writing Henschel as the producer of WNr 2018. I started a computer list of the Ju 88 production based on Medcalf and his book.
Ed advised me that the Henschel and Arado production had been switched in the book, so I made the changes but only in the book... ,not in the computer....

Oh well, so it goes....:o

Guess that is why German aviation is so fascinating, like stepping into a Hornet's nest every time...:D

Cheers
Stig

Re: Ju 88 L1+NH
 

It was never question of Ju 88 A-1 (early) 088 2018, that was planned have Henschel made fuselage & made Arado wings, Jumo 211 B motors etc. etc., and planned built in 12.1939 (Lieferplan 8), assembled at Arado, likely in 12.1939 but delivered in 01.1940 or later. Many of them went to the new K.G. and consumed very quickly... In fact I made my (expert) observation disregarding Peters info(docs).

My apologies for nominating Peter A. as expert.
I do not know of any other, besides me... :-)
*smiles*

-Ed

Re: Ju 88 L1+NH
 

In witch time period was this block built
Junkers Ju88A-4 WNr.088 0142001 to WNr.088 0142660 Siebel (Halle/Saale)
cheers
Peter

Re: Ju 88 L1+NH
 

This is all wrong. Assembly location was Siebel Leipzig-Halle/Schkeuditz, and type only "Ju 88 A-4" (Note: no "Junkers" before - this was THE RLM standard - and spaces before and aft of 88 still is the correct spelling, nothing more, nothing less) and the numbers range (comprizing of many building "Serie" blocks) was only 0880142001 to 0880142570 (no spaces there).

The 2018 was stkz. CG+KR, and there were many A-4 "Trop", then some A-4 LT and a few A-17 Torpedo Bombers conversions much later.

(Schkauditz)* Leipzig-Mockau location also assembled numerous Ju 88 A-5, A-7 and A-12 trainer rebuilds, and still later Ju 188 A/D´s, and them last were the Ju 388 J/L seen in LIFE photograph´s (published in "Ju 388" book by Vernaleken / Handig).

-Ed

Re: Ju 88 L1+NH
 

For Google´s sake, Ed - Leipzig-Halle-Schkeuditz

Still alive and kicking:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flughafen_Leipzig/Halle

Schkauditz is an existing small village north from Jena ;-)

Regards

Roland

Re: Ju 88 L1+NH
 

Hi Roland.
Good one. Excause on the typo ;-) Of course Leipzig-Halle-Schkeuditz (EDDP).
I do know this, only Alzheimer Leitz sometimes. Too many tiny detail to remember, but that just how it is. Besides "Last + Last Last", time I saw the (only one flying) An 225 it came exactly from there, from DHL base ... Always reminds me of the Ju 390.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/351332...-8GWHkF-o5xWJU
https://www.flickr.com/photos/351332...832329/sizes/l

-Ed

Re: Ju 88 L1+NH
 

Thanks EdNorth and Roland

Re: Ju 88 L1+NH
 

No. Not one trainer aircraft was rebuilt at Schkeuditz. I think you're confusing Schkeuditz and Leipzig-Mockau also with regard to the LIFE photos. I know only from photos of Mockau.

@gogh
The block 142001 started in November 1941 und ended in mid-1943. The old block 8501 has been continued also until mid-1943.

Regards
Peter

Re: Ju 88 L1+NH
 

Peter Achs. Yes, I was just checking if you spotted "the mistake" :)

Re: Ju 88 L1+NH
 

Thanks Peter

Re: Ju 88 L1+NH
 

2018 is also reported a bit earlier, on 25.dec.41 he started from Fritzlar to integrate Kps. Reserve/X.Fl.Kps, on 29.dec it was in Kps. Reserve , nd still in Kps. Reserve declared "flugklar" on 1.jan.42, 2016 followed the same way 15 days earlier to integrate LG 1, nd 2010,2011,2013 all in Fritzlar in mid. January "zugeteilt" to the III.LG1. most probably L1+NH was the142018,

Rémi

CG+KR , quite new to me ...

Re: Ju 88 L1+NH
 

Thanks Remi

I have 142016 as crashing in the Alps on 7.2.1942 while in service with Gross Kampffliegerschule 3. Since this fits rather badly with a delivery to III./LG 1 appx one months earlier, something is wrong. Maybe it was the old WNr (88)2016 which was w/o?

Also what does Kps. Reserve mean?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Ju 88 L1+NH
 

Stig, when all "hiden" docs will be more widespread, we will make better, but for the moment we are making houses, with tits nd bits, I am aware of that loss , in original doc, its reported as 2016, I ve seen that someone complete to 142016, usually rather new aircraft dont go to training units, in fact in our case a 20xx, goes to IV.LG1, at that time, so who knows..

Rémi

Re: Ju 88 L1+NH
 

Yes Rémi, just my thought as well.

When you mentioned a 2016 going to LG 1 in Jan 1942 it feels a lot more "comfortable" to have this one as 142016 and the one which was w/o on Feb 7th as the old (88)2016.

What does our Ju 88 experts Peter and Ed think about that?

Anyone who knows what Kps Reserve means/was?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Ju 88 L1+NH
 

Probably the 142016 comes from the NVM,I could'nt find it in the Accidents doc, Wonder about the D4+ seems to be the tag for some Training unit using Ju88, even an A-6, maybe Gr.KFS 3 ....

Kps. Reserve, is Korps Reserve, so planes owned by the Korps ready to affect to units when need them

Rémi

Re: Ju 88 L1+NH
 

Thanks Remi :)
Stig

Re: Ju 88 L1+NH
 

This is what I have for the Ju 88 A-1/A-5 2016:
- 14 Nov 1940, Paris/Orly, Kurssteuerungsflug as L1+FS [8./LG 1]
- 18 March 1941 Erg.K.Gr.6, Perleberg, Bruchlandung, 10%
- 13 Sept 1941 flight Wiener Neustadt-Fritzlar [FFS C 8]
- 30 Nov 1941 flight Fritzlar-Wiener Neustadt
[- 7 Febr 1942, Gr.Kampffl.Sch.3, vermutlich Absturz in den Alpen, 100%]
- 19 Okt 1942 Wiener Neustadt [FFS C 8] Fortbildungs- und Platzflüge
- 23 Febr 1943, FFS C 8, b. Wiener Neustadt, Absturz inf. Motorstörung, Aufschlagbrand, 95%

The crash on February 1942 doesn't fit with the other data so this is probably the 142016, and of course, new aircraft went to the schools especially to the GKS.

Regards
Peter

Re: Ju 88 L1+NH
 

The one in the Alps was "Ju 88 A-1" version - Wing parts part plates indicate that : say 88.503-138 - but had no date stamped, unfortunately (but could be from wrong wreck, tie up to is not concrete). Crash place was found in Summer 1942, in Police records (found date 06.07.1942) and parts are in Private Museum locally. So I think it was A-1 2016, but part could be same on later A-4 aircraft. -Ed

Re: Ju 88 L1+NH
 

Thanks Peter (and Ed)

I have to agree. Seems like (88)2016 spent most of its life with FFS C 8 and I can't visualize it being carried piece-by-piece down to get repaired and issued to GKFS 3....

Perhaps the details Rémi has located contain a misprint by some clerc and it was not (14)2016 which was issued at that time to Kps. Reserve?

Interesting discussion, I feel like a minnow among the sharks.... :)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Ju 88 L1+NH
 

Wonder if IV.LG1 nd Gr.KFS 3 not same unit at that time ....Norm. going to Kps.Reserve are fresh planes so at that time 1420xx, nd the ones retired from the front units so A-5 like 08820xx, but as X.Fl.Kps received so much 20xx planes it's look logical to think to 1420xx serie ...

The data given by Peter seem to exclude 882016 from the alpine accident...

Rémi