Researching Bf-109 Crash in Sth London
 

My father saw a Bf-109 crash in Sep 1940 near his home (now my home) in Wickham Street, Welling in Kent and he told me the story of how the plane came down on fire in a flat spin.

The pilot bailed out but his parachute caught fire and sadly he was killed. The fire went out before the plane struck the ground and was not badly damaged. He says there were no guns protruding from the wings so I presume it was an E-1 and it had the yellow cowling.

Anyway, I wrote to my local cemetery to find out if they had any records of the pilot and I received this reply:

***
'The record we have is that Albert Friedmann 2nd Lieut German Air Force aged 26 on the 20.10.1940 Place of death Gibsons Farm Wickham Street.

And W Krohn pilot in German Air Force who died on 4.11.1940 at Coldblow Bexley.

They where both Exhumed in 1962 and where re-interred in German War Cemetery Cannock Chase Stafford.'
***

So Leutnant (is this 2nd Lieut?) Albert Friedmann is the unfortunate pilot my father saw.

I am interested in finding out more about him, but obviously want to do this in a sensitive manner. Where can I look?

Thanks.

Re: Researching Bf-109 Crash in Sth London
 

I am afraid Friedmann is not the man you are looking for, as his aircraft exploded in the mid-air. Interestingly, on the very same day Uffz. Maierl of 3./LG2 was killed in similar circumstances to the ones you describe but the place of crash is Chapel Farm, Lenham Heath. This is a question for someone with a ready database of 109 crashes.

Re: Researching Bf-109 Crash in Sth London
 

Craig,

You can almost certainly identify the Bf 109 you are searching for by examining Winston Ramsey, ed., The Battle of Britain Then and Now (After the Battle Publications, ca. 1980) and Ramsy, et al., The Blitz Then and Now, Vol. I (After the Battle Publications, ca. 1985). Each of these references offers a comprehensive day-by-day calendar of Luftwaffe losses during the Battle of Britain with salient facts such as aircraft type, markings, time of day, aircrew names, place fallen, etc. The information was drawn by highly reputable British researchers from primary sources such the Luftwaffe's daily materiel loss reports and its Verlustmeldungen, or personnel casualty reports, as well as Br. A. Min. Crashed Enemy Aircraft Reports based on first-hand examination of the fallen aircraft. I suggest consulting The Blitz Then and Now, I, first as it is slightly more up to date. But I strongly suspect that either of the two works will tell you what you want to know.

For various reasons that don't need to be opened up here, I recommend avoiding any edition of Francis Mason, The Battle of Britain, which also offers a day-by-day calendar of Luftwaffe losses.


RA

Re: Researching Bf-109 Crash in Sth London
 

Welcome Craig,

Glad you accepted the invitation.

Any chance you can narrow down the date?

Re: Researching Bf-109 Crash in Sth London
 

The aircraft was Bf109E-4 (2780) that exploded under attack by P/O Draper of No.74 Sqdn. & fell apart over Welling at 1.45 pm on Sunday 20 October 1940. The pilot 65167/6 Oberfw Albert FRIEDEMANN of 6./JG52 fell dead & was originally buried in Service Grave E492 in Bexleyheath Cemetery on 29 October before reinterrment in Cannock Chase.

Re: Researching Bf-109 Crash in Sth London
 

I believe this to be, Oberfeldwebel Albert Friedemann, EM B65167/6, Bf 109E-4, Werk Nr 2780, 6/JG52, Born, Meusdorf 25.11.1913, died 1345 hrs 20.10.1940, now buried Cannock Chase, Block 1, Row 7, Grave 256.
Regards
Joe.

Re: Researching Bf-109 Crash in Sth London
 

Peter
The fact the aircraft exploded rules out it was the one seen by Craig's father.
Craig noted.
I presume, this aircraft may have not crashed at Welling but in a nearby village, unfortunately my knowledge of English geography disallows me a quick search.

Re: Researching Bf-109 Crash in Sth London
 

Franek,

In my experience you shouldn't place too much importance on eye-witness accounts. And certainly those quoted at second-hand at a distance of almost half a century. I stand by what I have said & published in BoBT&N back in 1980. The aircraft that fell at Wickham Street, Welling, was FRIEDEMANN's. The fact that it exploded doesn't mean that it disintegrated. The engine, forward fuselage, cockpit section, & wings fell as a complete unit, landing inverted off Plumstead Road, in Woolwich. Other wreckage being scattered over neighbouring areas of South London.

As to the question of armament, I quote the RAF Intelligence A.I.1.(g) Report on the incident that described the armament as '2 20mm. shell guns, 2 M.G.17's'. Photos of the incident confirm this statement.

Re: Researching Bf-109 Crash in Sth London
 

Nah, Peter, that is a convincing argument! I have checked Blitz, as well as had been suggested by a disintegrated remains of yet another Messerschmitt.
Importance of witnesses' accounts - well it does work both ways, depending on circumstances and the men involved. I think in this particular case, memories fit just perfectly.

Re: Researching Bf-109 Crash in Sth London
 

Franek,

Thank you - most gracious. Yes, of course, I accept that eye-witness accounts have their place, but if I was believe all those I have heard over the years, every Bf109 was yellow-nosed, & (this will amuse you) they were invariably shot down by a Polish pilot. In this particular case, as you say, the eye-witness account is accurate in most important respects.

In signing-off on this subject I must say 'thanks' to Rabe Anton for his remarks which are appreciated.

Re: Researching Bf-109 Crash in Sth London
 

Craig,

Perhaps you can show these pictures to your father, he may be able to recollect more based on the visual evidence.

Also if we have established Oberfw Albert FRIEDEMANN of 6./JG52 as the pilot, perhaps we can find out more about him, his career and final f(l)ight: exploded under attack by P/O Draper of No.74 Sqdn. & fell apart over Welling at 1.45 pm on Sunday 20 October 1940?

Re: Researching Bf-109 Crash in Sth London
 

According to Prien et al in JFV 4/II p. 161, WNr.2780 was marked Yellow 1 this is in accord with Barbas in II/JG 52, p. 301, incl possibility he was shot down by 74 Sqn.

Here's a profile of how the a/c may have looked, from:

SAM colours
Combat Colours Number 1
The Messerschmitt Bf 109E on the Western Front - 1940
by Peter Scott

p.42

Re: Researching Bf-109 Crash in Sth London
 

Wow. Great response - thanks everyone! And thanks for the invite Ruy.

I found the photo of the 109 that crashed in Woolwich a while ago in a book and showed it to dad. He said that it wasn't the one he saw crash at the entrance to Gibson's farm in Wickham Street - the one he saw didn't look badly damaged.

But it does sound like Friedmann was the pilot as dad told me he read in the local paper that the pilot that landed in the Gibson's farm crash was buried in Bexleyheath cemetery.

Dad was young when he saw the crash and is getting on a bit now but I know he is very observant so his recollection shouldn't be totally discounted.

He recalls that the plane was on fire when he first saw it falling and the fire had extinguished before it struck the ground. His friends started cheering when they first saw it and he told them to shutup as it could be one of 'ours'. (Typically thoughtful of dad :))

Anyway, I'll show him the picture again (and the profile - thanks Ruy).

I'll let you know his resonse.

Re: Researching Bf-109 Crash in Sth London
 

Finally got to talk to Dad about this.

I showed him the photo of the crashed 109 and he said that was not the one he saw on the ground at Gibson's farm. He is convinced that the aircraft he saw was the right way up and much more intact.

He told me that he was scrumping for apples and it was a sunny and clear day and is pretty sure it was September. He saw the plane falling for a couple of minutes in the clear sky. He pointed out that the people in the photo were wearing warm clothing and the sky looks overcast.

Also, the profile has the name Walter Friedmann?

None of this seems to support that the plane was Albert Friedmann's. If my Dad's recollection is accurate, then the records must be wrong. I might stick something in the local paper and see if anyone else recalls the crash.

Re: Researching Bf-109 Crash in Sth London
 

Craig's latest post merely affirms my earlier comments on the fallibility of human memory. The correct name was Albert FRIEDEMANN & my previous posts refer. Herewith reverse of an original Press photo taken at the scene (which I posted earlier) showing the caption.

Re: Researching Bf-109 Crash in Sth London
 

Perhaps your father is mistaken in location, but not in the other details, which could indicate another crash.

We are currently forcing the Friedemann crash into the mold of your father's account, mainly based on location.

Personally I think we should give more credence to his September date and the conditions of the wreck.

As for the Profile. Don't pay too much attention, it is not exact science.

Looks like the SAM people made a mistake in the pilot's name, but the a/c is an interpretation / guesstimate.

Re: Researching Bf-109 Crash in Sth London
 

I'm convinced by the evidence everyone has kindly provided, especially the photograph from Peter. Thanks again for everyone's help :)