Photograph of Willi Elstermann
 

Hi guys

I am wondering if anyone would have a photograph of this individual that they would be willing to share with me. This is intended for private use. I have come across mention of him various times, particularly regarding his service with JGr 152, ZG 52, ZG 2 and JG 6, but I have never seen a photograph of him. He had quite an interesting career so any help would be greatly appreciated.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Photograph of Willi Elstermann
 

Hello Leo,

You have a pm

Best regards, Marcel

Re: Photograph of Willi Elstermann
 

Dear all,

On the topic of Willi Elstermann -can anybody confirm how many daylight Abschüsse this pilot claimed during WWII, how many of these were made on the Eastern Front, and how many of his daylight claims were confirmed by the OKL/RLM? I have three confirmed kills whilst serving as a Zerstörer pilot with 2./ZG52 and 5./ZG2 (on 10 May, 8 August and 7 September 1940), a confirmed B-17 kill on 13 June 1943 whilst serving in the Nachtjagd, and I have one confirmed, and one unconfirmed, nighttime Abschüsse by Elstermann.

I would also be interesed in a photo of Elstermann; Marcel could you let me know if you have a photo of him?

Cheers and thanks, Theo

Photograph of Willi Elstermann
 

Hi guys

I have seen different totals given for this pilot, sometimes seven and sometimes nine. However, so far I have come across the same five that Boiten mentions and nothing more. The only night-time claim that I have for him occurred on 29 April 1942. However, any comments or corrections will be most appreciated!

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Photograph of Willi Elstermann
 

Theo

Johannes Mathews in 'Aces Biographies and victory claims' has located seven 'confirmed' and one unconfirmed victory claim by this ace. Six are taken from his log books and are only assumed as confirmed while his last (the B-17) is located in the microfilms.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photograph of Willi Elstermann
 

Hello Stig,

Cheers and thanks for these details -does Matthews give any particular details about his individual Reichsverteidigung daylight Abschüse, and did Elstermann achieve any claims on the Ostfront?

Cheers, Theo

Re: Photograph of Willi Elstermann
 

Prob nothing new Theo

13.6.43, 6./NJG 3, as Oblt, B-17 6-7 km SW Jaderoog at 10.12H.
No claims against the 'East' listed.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photograph of Willi Elstermann
 

Thanks a lot Stig for confirming these details -one last question; I have the following nighttime claim for Elstermann on 24-25.9.42, but am not sure if this is a 'falsified' claim from the Nonnenmacher listings (it does not appear in the OKL/RLM confirmed Abschussliste for 6./NJG3..); is this claim in fact listed in Elstermann's Flugbuch?:

Oblt. Willi Elstermann 6./NJG3 Lancaster 8 km. SW Viborg: 1.900 m. 01.22

Cheers, Theo

Re: Photograph of Willi Elstermann
 

Now this is a bit odd Theo

The only claim listed by Johannes on the 24th is the unconfirmed Wellington claim at Gronhoj area 122.

Since I am a bit puzzled what he means with 122, since it does not appear in the time column, it is strange it fits with the 01.22H time stated for your Lancaster claim....

The way Johannes writes his explanations, yes, all the earlier claims listed are taken from his Flugbuch(s). I suggest you send Johannes a PM. He is very helpful:)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photograph of Willi Elstermann
 

Willi Elstermann has been the subject of my research for a long time. I think I know a lot about him but his Abschüsse are indeed difficult to determine....what is documented in my opinion....

First, a few days before his death he had 7 Abschüsse in 150 Feindflüge, don't think anything was "added" until he was killed on Feb. 2nd 1945. The document does not say if all these Abschüsse were confirmed.

Furthermore I have found no record and no indication at all that he scored any victories in the RVT or in the east. I believe all his victories must have been achieved before the fall of 1943.

His FB only goes until 14.08.1942. The following four are listed in his FB;

10/5/40 Morane
8/8/40 Blenheim
7/9/40 Spitfire
29/4/42 Stirling

The FB does not say if these were confirmed or not.

There is a slight chance that he claimed something on 30/9/39 when he was with 2./JGr 152 but it is unclear.

I do not believe the claim on 24.9.1942 exists.

We have the claim on 13.6.1943 which I consider his 5th claim (until corrected otherwise....)

I believe his 6th and 7th claim are most likely achieved somewhere in the period June 1943 - September 1943.

Hope this helps,

John

Re: Photograph of Willi Elstermann
 

Hi John,

Many thanks for these elaborate details about Elstermann's career and Abschüsse, most helpful indeed. I've deleted his September 42 claim -your info strengthens me in my belief that this victory claim was a Nonnenmacher/Ring 'invention'.

Cheers, Theo

Re: Photograph of Willi Elstermann
 

John/Theo

Since Johannes seems not to be following this thread, he lists his two first victories in 1939 with 3./JGr 152
One Ms 406 on 24.9.1939
One Po 637 on 4.10.1939

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photograph of Willi Elstermann
 

Thanks for that Stig, -it would be interesting indeed if John can follow up these two Abschüsse with Elstermann's Flugbuch entries!

Cheers, Theo

Re: Photograph of Willi Elstermann
 

Not sure where Johannes got his info from, I think we need some evidence... The one for 24/9/39 is listed in Prien's work but just as an assumption.

Although I really did not need to check the FB (as these two are not in my notes..) I did fetch the FB from the archived boxes and checked it;

24/9/39....11. Frontflug (17.04-18.10 Uhr Biblis), no remarks
4/10/39....did not fly....

The flight on 30/9/39 I mentioned in an earlier post was his 23. Frontflug (15.57-17.34 Uhr) and there he reported something that could be read as "Luftsieg"....but that is really all and I am simply not sure....

John

Re: Photograph of Willi Elstermann
 

Thanks a lot John for clearing this up, much appreciated!

Cheers, Theo

Photograph of Willi Elstermann
 

Hi guys

Many thanks to all who have participated in this thread and in particular to John Manrho for his detailed post regarding the career of this pilot. I think that much of the confusion regarding any possible victories that Leutnant Willi Elstermann claimed with 2./JGr 152 is due to the fact that there was a Leutnant Horst Elstermann who simultaneously was serving with 3./JGr 152. This was the man that claimed victories on 24 September 1939 (and following the aerial combat had to perform a belly-landing near Weilerbach) and 6 October 1939. Apparently, there is some mixing of the details of the two men.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Photograph of Willi Elstermann
 

Leo,

For me than the question pops up what kind of evidence we have concerning the claims of Lt. Horst Elstermann......where documented?

Does anybody have an idea what happened to this Elstermann?

Thanks,

John

Re: Photograph of Willi Elstermann
 

No one? I would be interested to learn more about this Horst Elstermann and what kind of supportive evidence we have on the claims of this pilot.

John

Photograph of Willi Elstermann
 

Hi John

Honestly, I can be of little help as you have far better resource material available than I but his name does appear in various publications such as Fledgling Eagles by Shores and Ehrengardt as well as Die Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934 bis 1945 Teil 2 by Prien and his team. Unfortunately, information about JGr 152 and I./ZG 52 appears to be extremely fragmentary and often contradictory for what I have seen due to the loss of historical records. It certainly would be interesting to learn more about this pilot but I do wonder if that would be possible given what researchers such as Larry Hickey have stated regarding the lack of data for the Zerstörer units in 1939 and 1940.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Photograph of Willi Elstermann
 

Leo,

Ok, already started digging.....does anybody know where the name Horst was mentioned? I am looking for the original source. Trying to solve the mix up....

regards,

John