Fw 190 D-9 21x 129
 

Gentlemen,

while browsing in Christer Bergströms recommendable book "The Ardennes, 1944-1945" I stumbled across a photo showing the wreck of a D-9 with the Werknummer 21x 129, (red or yellow) "9".

This photo was taken by members of the 68th Tank Batallion, 6th Armoured Division, the source is given as "The Paul Warp Collection".

Is there anything known about a D-9 with this Werknummer(n), most probably found by advancing US forces in western or central Germany (and not in the Ardennes)?

Regards,

Heuser

Re: Fw 190 D-9 21x 129
 

I do not believe I have seen this one before....at least it is not in my D-9 list.....could you post a scan of it (with the correct reference of course).

Thanks,

John

Re: Fw 190 D-9 21x 129
 

Fw 190D-9 W.Nr. 210129 suffered 20% damage when making a belly landing
at airfield no. 1693 on 13. February 1945. No casualties. Unit was IV./J.G.26.

Re: Fw 190 D-9 21x 129
 

Correct, location was Münster-Handorf a/f with Fw. Arnfried Köhler of 10./JG 54.

Regards

Heuser

Re: Fw 190 D-9 21x 129
 

Hello Heuser or Seaplanes
do you have the reason for the belly landing?

TIA
Juha

Re: Fw 190 D-9 21x 129
 

Is this the plane you mean?
Go to
http://www.stormbirds.com/recon/index.hem
and look at Fw 190D on the left side.
I have seen a better photo of this plane somewhere and think it may be W. Nr. 210127 and belong to JG 54.

Re: Fw 190 D-9 21x 129
 

Good evening Juha,
according to Urbankes "Mit der Fw 190 D-9 im Einsatz" (engl: "Green Hearts, First in Combat with the Dora 9") this a/c was damaged by own Flak (marked as "black 7").

Good evening Micke,
yes, this is the same a/c and location, thanks for the hint. At least the "... 129" is clearly visible in Bergströms book.

Regards

Alexander

Re: Fw 190 D-9 21x 129
 

Hello Heuser
thanks a lot for the answer!

Juha

Re: Fw 190 D-9 21x 129
 

I am still not convinced that the D-9 on the picture is indeed 210129.....why couldn't it be 211129? There are a couple of things that do not add up...

a) 210129 was damaged on Feb. 13th, 1945 with 10./JG 54 as black 2 at Münster - Handorf. This picture shows clearly a 9.....(red, yellow, blue?)

b) 6th Armoured Division was i.m.h.o. nowhere near Münster-Handorf....

So.....either this is not 210129 but 211129 or it shows 210129 later after repair and repainting with other unit? Possible...

Any ideas?

John

Re: Fw 190 D-9 21x 129
 

How did Fw 190D-9 W.Nr. 210129 end up in 10./J.G.54 ?? The Gen.Qu. loss list for February 1945 clearly state IV./J.G.26. Is there a NVM that give other info or was 10./J.G.54 a part of IV./J.G.26 at this time.

Re: Fw 190 D-9 21x 129
 

http://ww2.dk/air/jagd/jg54.htm
III./JG54 : On 25.2.45 redesignated IV./JG26, perhaps happened when JG54 and entered in the reports when JG26.
JG26 War Diary has Fw. Arnfried Köhler KIA on 13 & 19 MAR 45 in 13./JG26.

Re: Fw 190 D-9 21x 129
 

I'm still not sure that the W.Nr. is 210129, and I don't think it has the camouflage of a 211 series plane, so I don't believe it could be 211129 either.

I have found a better photo on Modelforum.cz, but I can't really say if it is 210127, -128 or -129. W.Nr. 210128 was Gelbe 9 from 11. /JG 54, destroyed at Lengerich, a candidate maybe? It doesn’t seem destroyed in the photo, even if it has seen better days.

What do you guys say about the light coloured band? It certainly isn’t JG 26 and JG 54 is usually said to have not used the blue band on their Dora’s, but W.Nr. 210037 from 12. /JG 54, found at Eelde airfield, did have a similarly coloured light band, could it have been light blue? Otherwise I can only see the yellow band of JG 11, but they seem to have used only a few Dora’s just before the war ended.

Re: Fw 190 D-9 21x 129
 

Has there been any more information about this aircraft?

I believe W.Nr. 210129 was most likely a 12./JG 54 machine coded Red 9. W.Nr. 210128, Yellow 9, was a different aircraft. Claes Sundin obviously based his color profile on photos of W.Nr. 210129, but W.Nr. 210128 was 100% destroyed on 29 December 1945, so it cannot have been the aircraft that was later photographed by US soldiers.

JG 11 would be possible as well if the tail band was yellow, but according to Japo Fw 190 D-9 Vol. 1 only few D-9s were delivered to JG 1 and no photographs are known that would show a yellow tail band.

Re: Fw 190 D-9 21x 129
 

Go here and scroll down to near the bottom. There is a photo of Lieutenant Paul Warp sitting in the cockpit of an Fw 190. The text above appears to be a translation or badly edited, or both.


https://erenow.net/ww/ardennes-1944-...fensive/11.php

Re: Fw 190 D-9 21x 129
 

The problem, which I have, is that it's not good to see the last number in any of the photos, which I found. It looks like 9, but it can also be 8

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...3&type=1&ifg=1
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

Re: Fw 190 D-9 21x 129
 

Thank you Ed and Matolion for these photos. All were new to me.

It's a pity that apparently there were no captions on the original photos that would reveal the location.

In the comment section of the second facebook link someone posted an image of Bf 109 'Black 16' and claims that it was the same aircraft (which it is not of course). But apparently both photos were taken by members of the same medic unit and it may well be that it was the airfield where this Fw 190 D-9 was found. The trees and surrounding fit. I have seen other photos of this 'Black 16'. If I remember correctly there is even a color shot in either one of the WOBC volumes (will check later today) or Brett Green's Bf 109 title published by Eagle Editions.

Marc-André Haldimann, if you are reading this, can you ID the location where the Bf 109 was found?

Re: Fw 190 D-9 21x 129
 

Not Marc, but Bf 109 "Black 16" was found either at Zellhausen or Babenhausen, two airfields in close proximity to each other, west of Aschaffenburg. It is rather confusing to sort out the airplanes captured at either one of them though. We have planes from JG 2, JG 4, JG 301, NJG 101, plus some unidentified. Parts of JG 54 were stationed at Babenhausen too. So there is a high chance that our Fw 190 D-9 here carried a (faded) blue fuselage band..

Re: Fw 190 D-9 21x 129
 

Thank you. Babenhausen could fit since elements of JG 54 used Babenhausen in 1945 according to ww2.dk. There was a loss of an 11./JG 54 Fw 190 on 21 February 1945 near Babenhausen, but I am not sure if he started from Babenhausen.

Re: Fw 190 D-9 21x 129
 

Any chance it was 212129? That particular machine was listed as unserviceable with 11./JG 2 on 22 March 1945, awaiting "repair of formed wing-tip member".
Source: ULTRA CX/MSS/R501(C),4

Re: Fw 190 D-9 21x 129
 

Unlikely Nick, I would say this definitely looks like "21012x"...

Re: Fw 190 D-9 21x 129
 

Regarding Bf 109G, Black 16; He 111H-16, W.Nr.161419, Black A; Fw 190D-9, W.Nr.600646, White 12+- etc. is a lot of photos. Unfortunately, airfield identifications vary: Zellhausen, Babenhausen or Merzhausen. By comparing photos, I found out that it's probably one airfield, I just can't 100% determine which one

Re: Fw 190 D-9 21x 129
 

Right, I forgot Merzhausen - another one of the "hausens" associated with these planes. (This one is located a little bit further away from the others though)

Re: Fw 190 D-9 21x 129
 

One small problem. 11. and 12./JG 54 changed to 15. and 16./JG 26 (25.2.1945). IV./JG 26 used a wavy line, which is not visible on 210128(9)

Re: Fw 190 D-9 21x 129
 

I believe it still carried the IV./JG 54 markings (blue band) and was probably damaged before or during the renaming to IV./JG 26 and then parked at the border of the airfield.

Since apparently it does not appear in the loss lists (when it was coded '9') the only chance to find out more about its history is if it appears in a JG 54 / 26 logbook. But chances are very small to find anything. One of the -hausen is probably a good hypothesis.

For the location I can only hope that sooner or later a photo with a caption appears that reveals the location.

Re: Fw 190 D-9 21x 129
 

My take is that 210129 was repaired after the belly-landing with Köhler, and then was re-marked (note the area around the number seems to sport more fresh RLM 76 than next to it) with 'Red 9' (the number is fairly dark but not black and doesn't have an outline as a black number of 10. Staffel or a yellow number of 11. Staffel would have; besides, the yellow of the fuel triangle shows up as a very bright tone on the photo from Christer's book, whilst the number stays darker - unless some magic with colour filters - that cannot be excluded - happened here, it is simply the effect of using panchromatic film) and assigned to 12. Staffel, with which it was damaged again and left in the condition we can see in the photos, with the loss/damage record not preserved.

As for the Geschwader ID band, the prescribed colour for JG 54 was light blue. Period photos show more examples of such bright bands - see the photo of 210037 mentioned in one of previous posts, or photos of IV./JG 54s Fw 190 A-8s in JFV 13/II, pp. 311, 387, 415

Re: Fw 190 D-9 21x 129
 

Maciej, I agree with your assessment. On one of the photos a hill can be seen in the background. I used google earth and compared both Zellhausen and Babenhausen. Unfortunately, similar hills can be seen from both locations. I have a photo of this aircraft that came with a group of photos that also included a Fw 190 D-9 that was mentioned in a A.I.G. report about Babenhausen. I therefore assume it was rather found at Babenhausen than at Zellhausen, but 210129 does not appear in the A.I.G. report.

Re: Fw 190 D-9 21x 129
 

Another small problem: Americans only listed Babenhausen in their lists, but Zellhausen wasn´t there

Re: Fw 190 D-9 21x 129
 

Perhaps they have it listed under another name (Seligenstadt perhaps)? The veterans did this very often, sometimes even the intelligence guys. Or they listed the Zellhausen planes together with the ones from Babenhausen. As I said, these two airfields were very close to each other, in neighboring villages even.

And what I just discovered: Two villages further to the southeast was yet a third airfield! Großostheim (or Groß-Ostheim). Some of all these photos might have been taken there too..

Re: Fw 190 D-9 21x 129
 

Something doesn't add up...

13 Feb 1945: 210129 made a belly landing at Münster Handorf on 13 Feb 1945, 20% damaged. It was with 10./JG 54 (III. Gruppe)

11 to 21 Feb 1945: a detachment of III./JG 54 was at Babenhausen. They returned north to Varrelbusch on 21 Feb 1945

Mar/Apr 1945: The aircraft was found by American troops at Babenhausen or Zellhausen. Presumably, it was part of the detachment that was sent to Babenhausen.

--> If it was indeed damaged 20% at Münster Handorf on 13 Feb 1945, I doubt that it was repaired so quickly and then flown to Babenhausen before the detachment returned on 21 Feb 1945. Also, after 13 Feb 1945 there were no missions flown from Babenhausen. It could still be that it was damaged on the ground e.g. by strafing fighters.

Could it be that the loss list recorded the W.Nr. wrongly?

Re: Fw 190 D-9 21x 129
 

You should not be amazed that the Feldwerft at Handorf managed to repair such damage within a few days.