16 GIAP 31.05.1944 Jassy
 

According to the Osprey P-39 history this unit, with flights led by Rechkalov and Klubov lost 5 P-39 in a dogfight over Jassy. Apaarently Rechkalov was at fault and was reprimanded. Can anyone tell me more about this action. What pilots were lost and which Axis unit was involved. I know JG52 made nearly 30 claims for p-39s on this date at various times and location so assume they were the culprits.

best regards

Keith

Re: 16 GIAP 31.05.1944 Jassy
 

I know about 3 missing and 1 killed 9 GvIAD, 16 GvIAP pilots this day:

гв.мл.л-т Петухов Владимир Сергеевич (MIA, 1922-31.05.1944)
гв.л-т Карпов Николай Павлович (MIA, 1922-31.05.1944)
гв.мл.л-т Барышев Илья Павлович (MIA, 1923-31.05.1944)
гв.л-т Чистов Николай Александрович (KIA, 1923-31.05.1944)

I hope this helps.
Gabor

Re: 16 GIAP 31.05.1944 Jassy
 

Please keep in mind that 16 GIAP weren't the only unit to lose Airacobras that day. I have been able to turn up the following:

129 GIAP Leytenant Nikolay Fedorovich Burgunov POW and returned postwar

508 IAP lost Viktor Aleksandrovich Sandalinov and Ml.Lt. Vasily Demianovich Shkondin KIA

It goes at least some way toward explaining some of the numerous claims put in for P-39s that date...

Nick

Re: 16 GIAP 31.05.1944 Jassy
 

Thanks chaps. I wish I had more information about the combat. I will try and see if Klubov or Rechkalov can be linked to more details.

Re: 16 GIAP 31.05.1944 Jassy
 

16th GvIAP lost on that day near Iasi 13 P-39's. 508 IAP two. Russian side claimed 44
enemy planes downed not clear if this figure can be verified nor the claimed
types. If the 39 Luftwaffe claims were related to P-39 then this claim is totally
exagerated. The Soviets seems to have lost 27 fighters and one PE-2. Retchkalov
was reprimanded and probably also demoted from Major to Senior Lt thanks to his
old 55 IAP friend Pokrishkin who discussed the matters with Podgorney and Utin.
I am however not sure if the demotion was effective on that day or later .

Re: 16 GIAP 31.05.1944 Jassy
 

16th GvIAP lost on that day near Iasi 13 P-39's. 508 IAP two.

The Soviets seems to have lost 27 fighters and one PE-2.



Are you able to provide details of these losses?

Re: 16 GIAP 31.05.1944 Jassy
 

Gabor

I knew you was going to come back on this

16th GvIAP

Malenkov forced landing damage beyond repair
Ivanov -fate unknown
Baryeshev POW , first declared MIA , then KIA and finally POW
Burgunov- POW Stalag Luft II .Victim of the Soviet system on post WWII era, 8 victories may still be alive ( downing date not clear)
Volkov ( fate uknown )
Gurov Iasi area ( possible 30.5.44)
Myronov ( fate unknown ,possible POW)
Eryomin
Kamensky
Karpov ( Rediul ) bailed out chute didn't open
Osypov ( fate uknown )
Petuhov
Rudenko ( belly landing , P-39 beyond repair)
Tschistov
Yazov near Vulturul initially reported near Serpeni
Duritzkin ( landed on Rumanian / German occupied territory fate unknown,possible POW )
Naumov or Nahumov forced landing on Soviet occupied area , no details
Turjansky - (Ryadovoy) possibly demoted to PvT,P-39 trainee , missing , fate unknown possibly killed on ground or non
flying circumstances or local training flight
Irina Alexandrovna -suicide -aircrew/trainee - unknown circumstances ( non flying incident ) rank unknown
Tagyltzev Nikolay Petrovitch - Captain- details uknown , missing , pilot ,possibly non combat related,possibly
on also training flight along with Turjansky

PE-2 Dyadov & crew near Balti , 511 recon sqd , possible Lipfert's victim though no clear details , HSU Hero

Maybe some one can ident the attached shot as into the P-39 IAP or GvIAP it belonged to.

Note some details may not be available on OBD

Re: 16 GIAP 31.05.1944 Jassy
 

Fascinating. It's odd because tying up the claims of JG52 I would have expected a correlation between claims for P-39 and the IL-2 they were escorting indicating a large aerial battle, but I can't find one. The various groups make several claims, especially Willi Batz and his stab, but there's no obvious time and place unless two or more groups meet the same enemy formation within a 30-45 minute time frame. I will try and marry up the times and places.

best regards

Keith

Re: 16 GIAP 31.05.1944 Jassy
 

Hi,

Kpt. Pawel K. Eryomin 06.30 hrs combat with Fw 190, his P-39 crashed near Zacharka
Lt. Karpow 09.50 hrs shot down by enemy fighters in the area of Redinu-Metropolij
Lt. Czistow, Lt. Baryszew, Lt. Pietuchow - all FTR after combat with enemy fighters at approx. 09.50 hrs.
P-39 of Lt. Rudenko was damaged by 4 Fw 190s in the same combat and belly-landed outside the airfield. Pilot was slightly wounded and aircraft was written off.

Regards

Robert

Re: 16 GIAP 31.05.1944 Jassy
 

Robert

The locations are mispelled , also got some questions

Based on what documents did you determine Eryomin crashed near Zahorna
and Karpov the Rediul area ? If D.Hazanov was your source,then this publication
containing some errors as into same crash sites and some events.

Keith as previously discussed both Russian and Luftwaffe claims are mismatching
the reality. Going through Batz , Chavchanidze,Kryukov and Marinsky memoirs they too
containing numerous errors , additionally Aviamaster Russia despite interesting
stuff published in there it carries numerous errors one of which is the tactical sketch
of Maj.Borschevsky Hdq 5th VA dated 8.6.1944.

Re: 16 GIAP 31.05.1944 Jassy
 

Anyone can make mistakes, including researcher111. No need to ascribe to the loss of 16 GIAP all losses 9 GIAD. About reprimand will not speak, but the Order of the Red Banner was Rechkalov including fighting 05/31/1944

Re: 16 GIAP 31.05.1944 Jassy
 

Hi,

do you speak Russian? I do so I don`t see Zahorna but Zaharka. His aircraft crashed near Zaharka and he touched down 4 km S of Zaharka after bailing out of his crippled aircraft.
Between 10.55 and 11.55 hrs the P.39 aircraft of Ml.Lt. Stacienko was attacked and badly damaged by Bf109s and badly damaged. Pilot was unhurt.
Between 13.50 and 14.50 hrs the fighter aircraft of Lt. Iwanow was shot down by German fighters crashing in flames in the area of Szetredenij.
Between 17.50 and 18.50 hrs the last combat took place in the area of Redinu-Metropolij and aircraft of Lt. Oniszenko returned with 3 bullet hits.
On the same day 100 GIAP lost 3 pilots and 104 GIAP one pilot.

Regards

Robert

Re: 16 GIAP 31.05.1944 Jassy
 

Actually you didn't answer my questions, yes I speak fluent Russian since my school time and daily with my wife in addition to Romanian and German , also and again the locations were mispelled by Aviamaster author or just if you think otherwise maybe can point them out for me on google map

Re: 16 GIAP 31.05.1944 Jassy
 

Hi,

well I have a big Russian book on 16 GIAP but there are any footnotes. I can send you scans of the relevant pages.

Regards

Robert

Re: 16 GIAP 31.05.1944 Jassy
 

Robert

I think you misunderstood my post , I don't doubt what u're saying but the spelling of the Russian author , whats the name of that book and the author ?
just for the rest of us yes please post the scan

Thanks
Alex K

Re: 16 GIAP 31.05.1944 Jassy
 

Kirche, if you live in Moscow then your Russian language is better than mine as such u can read all facts on Russian Internet . However I don't understand what you are trying to say. Keith stated already he was reprimanded which is totally correct . If you saying his awards were taken back , I am not aware of all that. Sometime after July '44 he was demoted from Major to Captain maybe later even to Starshey Lt and it remained this way till 1945 or later. Then the ranks and titles were reinstated though unlike his other prominent front comrades he ended his career as Brigadier General only . Left shot still Major sometime after July 1944 , middle as St Lt or Captain victory parade 1945 right as Captain sometime 1944/1945

Re: 16 GIAP 31.05.1944 Jassy
 

Alex,
You wrote a list of names that are associated with the loss of 16 GIAP 31.05.1944. But, out of 20 names I found in the documents of the 9 GIAD or 205 IAD only 13 names. Only 7 people were in the 16 GIAP. Perhaps the other names are incorrect?
______
Malenkov – ???
Ivanov – ? гв. мл. л-т Иванов Сергей Макарович (16 GIAP 9 GIAD) - Was at war with Japan in 1945. Was alive in 1985.
Baryeshev – гв. мл. л-т Барышев Илья Павлович (16 GIAP 9 GIAD)
Burgunov – гв. л-т БургОнов Николай Федорович (129 GIAP 205 IAD)
Volkov - гв. мл. л-т Волков Семен Иванович (100 GIAP 9 GIAD)
Gurov (possible 30.5.44) - гв. мл. л-т Гуров Василий Николаевич (100 GIAP 9 GIAD) – MIA 30.05.1944
Myronov– ???
Eryomin – гв. капитан Еремин Павел Кузьмич (16 GIAP 9 GIAD) – 31.05.1944 burns of the face 1 degree. Survived the war.
Kamensky - гв. мл. л-т Каменский Алексей Павлович (100 GIAP 9 GIAD)
Karpov – гв. л-т Карпов Николай Павлович (16 GIAP 9 GIAD)
Osypov – гв. ст. л-т Осипов Георгий Яковлевич (100 GIAP 9 GIAD)
Petuhov – гв. мл. л-т Петухов Владимир Сергеевич (16 GIAP 9 GIAD)
Rudenko - гв. мл. л-т Руденко Иван Степанович (16 GIAP 9 GIAD) – Survived the war.
Tschistov - гв. л-т Чистов Николай Александрович (16 GIAP 9 GIAD)
Yazov - гв. мл. л-т Язов Леонид Александрович (104 GIAP 9 GIAD)
Duritzkin – ???
Naumov or Nahumov – ???
Turjansky – ???
Irina Alexandrovna – ???
Tagyltzev Nikolay Petrovitch – ???
_______
Photographs 1 (Maior) and 3 (Capitan) made in the period between 2 July 1944 (2nd «Gold Star») and November 1944 (no 3-th "Order of the Red Banner").
According to some data 20.07.1944 - Rechkalov was commander of 16 GIAP already as a guard Major. But 2nd "Gold Star" received by him as guard Captain. According to other sources he could be a guard Сaptain to 25.09.1944. The third photo was taken earlier than the first.
The second foto ("Capitan-Parade of 1945") - maybe it's not G. A. Rechkalov?

Rechkalov was removed from his post of commander (or VRIO commander) of 16 GIAP twice:
- 20.05.1944 (after 10.05.1944 - the death of Olefirenko I. K.)
- 09.03.1945 (after 28.02.1945 - death of squadron commander Tsvetkov V.P.)
Awards Rechkalov G. A. no one is deprived - on the contrary including the battle 31.05.1944 (shot down 1 FW-190) he was awarded the 3rd "Order of the Red Banner".

regards,
Kirill

Re: 16 GIAP 31.05.1944 Jassy
 

Kirche

1. The complete Russian names you added is just a repetition,thanks anyways
2. What is the complete name of Olefirenko in Kyrilik ?
3. I agree regarding the squadron removal dates u've mentioned
4. Rest of the names/events are available on Chavchanidze memoirs
5. All photos posted are of Retchkalov

6. regarding rank demotion dates I don't want to comment because I have no
relevant info

Regards
Alex K

Re: 16 GIAP 31.05.1944 Jassy
 

Alex,
1. I wrote all the names that were actually in the 9 GIAD. Other names you have written in documents 31.05.1944 no. Especially in the documents of the 16 GIAP. I know the name is of each pilot of each flight on the 16 GIAP on 31.05.1944. Rechkalov made two flights (out of 5 sorties regiment) and the group facilitator it was only in the last mission, in which there were no losses. Reprimand Rechkalov 31.05.1944 is a story from the memoirs.
2. the commander of the 1st squadron, 16 GIAP Olefirenko Ivan Konstantinovich - disaster 10.05.1944. But the fact of guilt Rechkalov not confirmed the documents. Rechkalov not fulfilled duties of the commander. The commander of 16 GIAP 10.05.1944 was Chavchanidze Arkady Serapionovich and he was in the regiment. But Rechkalov was not (the second time) appointed him as commander of 16 GIAP.
4. I think in the memoirs Chavchanidze Arkady Serapionovich there is an inaccuracy. He was commander of 16 GIAP only 1 month (then was one of the Vice-commander of 9 GIAD). Memoirs in General are not a reliable source (can be confused dates, names, facts).
Regards,
Kirill

Re: 16 GIAP 31.05.1944 Jassy
 

It seems to me , u're using the Google translator which makes rather hard to
understand what you are trying to say. Suggest you use Russian language for
that purpose.

Невозможно ответить на Ваше сообщение, потому что Вы используете переводчик
на английский язык. Если Вы не говорите по-английски, то пишите на русском языке.

В моем предыдущем сообщении я спрашивал Вас - что случилось с
Олеференко на аэродроме Ямполь(какой вид авиакатастрофы?) , потому что
Вы говорили, что имеете книгу о 16 гвиап.

Re: 16 GIAP 31.05.1944 Jassy
 

Hello Kirche
I have found your messages very informative and I generally understand what you mean but now I would like to clarify a sentence. When you wrote “and the group facilitator it was only in the last mission, in which there were no losses.” Did you mean that Rechkalov was the formation leader only during his 2nd sortie of the day and that during that mission there was no VVS losses?

And one other question. What happened during Rechkalov’s 1st sortie on 31 May 1944 and in what capacity he participated, was it mission of the whole regiment during which Rechkalov acted as a squadron leader or what?


TIA
Juha

Re: 16 GIAP 31.05.1944 Jassy
 

Sorry, I try to speak clear. Everyone has flaws)) But the language of this forum is English.

I didn't see this question.
Airfield "Gal'zhbievka", 8.32 - training mission, 8.50 - at an altitude of 3000 meters entered in a flat spin and crashed 2-3 km northwest of Dzasovka. The pilot parachuted out at low altitude and died.

Re: 16 GIAP 31.05.1944 Jassy
 

OK , thank you Gal'zhbievka is some 5 miles NW of Yampol this as far as the OBD is being concerned something I was aware about , though in what respect is this connected to Retchkalov's fault and him being reprimanded ? Was Grigory Oleferenkos's wingman ? which publication cited the P-39 flat spin at 9000 feet ?

Re: 16 GIAP 31.05.1944 Jassy
 

Hello Juha,
That's right - it was. Only "aircraft of Lt. Oniszenko returned with 3 bullet hits" (by Robert)

Combat mission around 9:00 16 aircraft (troops undercover).
Flight 1 squadron - the leader of the attacking group Clubov, the leader of the ensure group Trofimov, leader of the cover group Chistov.
Rechkalov-Vakhnenko - "free hunt".
The battle at 9.40-9.50.
MIA Karpov, Petuhov, Baryshev (attacking group), Chistov (cover group); emergency landing Rudenko (cover group).
Rechkalov-Vakhnenko fight in the side - shot down 1 FW-190.
Cause of loss is listed as: "a cover group was fascinated by the pursuit of the bombers and did not complete the mission + other errors interaction ("attacking group" - "cover group" and inside)"
Rechkalov was Deputy commander for flight training (he watched the action groups and led a "free hunt"). Team battle is a task of the squadron.

Best regards,
Kirill

Re: 16 GIAP 31.05.1944 Jassy
 

Hello Kirill
thanks a lot for you informative answer!

Juha

Re: 16 GIAP 31.05.1944 Jassy
 

Gents, I like this thread... In the link below to my Homepage you find a part of a German map :
http://yogysoft.de/Bessarabia_5-1.htm

I assume that Zaharka is a Russian mis-spelling / Russian Name of Zahorna.

Here is the map:
http://yogysoft.de/images/Katja_Sonja.jpg

Re: 16 GIAP 31.05.1944 Jassy
 

Gents, you can find a map of the (ground) fighting area on my homepage:
http://yogysoft.de/Bessarabia_5-1.htm

I assume that "Zaharka" is russian version of Zahorna. Who knows how the ROmanians call it today...

Re: 16 GIAP 31.05.1944 Jassy
 

Re: 16 GIAP 31.05.1944 Jassy
 

It was the single training flights.
8.25 with airfield Gal'zhbievka flew on a reconnaissance mission Pokryshkin (commander of 9 GIAD), Chavchanidze (commander of 16 GIAP) and Fedorov (Navigator 16 GIAP). Rechkalov (Deputy commander of 16 GIAP) was to serve as commander of 16 GIAP.
7 minutes later flew to the training Olefirenko (the sixth), after 18 minutes crashed. The source of about "flat spin at 3000 meters" - "Book losses 16 GIAP"
The reprimand was not - it was a random tragedy. The story of the reprimand is in some memoirs after the war.

Re: 16 GIAP 31.05.1944 Jassy
 

Thanks for your update, ca you tell me the Russian name of that book on 16 GvIAP ?

Re: 16 GIAP 31.05.1944 Jassy
 

"Книга учета боевых и небоевых потерь", TsAMO RF, archive 16 GIAP (21990)

Re: 16 GIAP 31.05.1944 Jassy
 

Thanks again for the update, with great certainty under this title I won't find
and info on the Net and if you say is a TsAMO stuff then the chances of getting
this book are very low.