Walther Dahl
 

Good evening,

what plane was Walther Dahl flying when scoring his kills #86-125 ?

Michael

Re: Walther Dahl
 

..who knows! He was awarded the Eichenlaub in February 1945. This was for 92 victories. Apparently, and by his own account, he scored his 100th victory on 1 March 1945, barely two months before the end of the war. The historians of JG 300 found no evidence at all for victories 100-125

http://falkeeins.blogspot.co.uk/2014...g-300-his.html

Re: Walther Dahl
 

I know people who would say that there is no evidence at all for victories 40-100...

Seriously...

Bronc

Re: Walther Dahl
 

..its a shame in a way most enthusiasts can't read his memoir 'Rammjäger' - there is of course a very good reason why it has never been translated. It's probably the worst Luftwaffe memoir ever compiled. That said, there are one or two areas where he's probably not too inaccurate ... but the historians of JG 300 produced nearly 500 pages of text without quoting once from it..

Re: Walther Dahl
 

Does this dreaded book give a hint what he flew in the period Jan-Mar45 ?

Have a good Sunday evening

Michael

Re: Walther Dahl
 

Walther Dahl was "Inspekteur der Tagjäger" from January to May 1945 and flew most probably a Storch.

Re: Walther Dahl
 

Haha.
Seriously...what piston-engined fighter did he claim to have used ?

Michael

Walther Dahl
 

Hi guys

As can be seen this is another one of those pilots whose late war career is very murky. Definite statements are therefore very dangerous but it would appear his final claims were recorded with the Geschwaderstab of JG 300 equipped with the Fw 190 A-8 and A-9 and the remainder with III./EJG 2 equipped with the Me 262 jet fighter. Caveat Emptor.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Walther Dahl
 

Thanks Leo, this is of help.
Also for the new English vocab Caeveat Emptor

Michael

Re: Walther Dahl
 

...from Johannes I learned that Dahl may have scored his last 7 kills in the Me262. Is this his highest possible jet total ?

Michael

Re: Walther Dahl
 

Good morning Gentlemen,

I'm still trying to find evidence for Dahl having or not having scored 128 kills.
Also if his maximum Me262 score is 7.
This website says it is 9.
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/dahl.html

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Walther Dahl
 

We now know a lot more than when I helped work on that "frozen in time" website:

Walther Dahl

22.6.41/0430
"I-18"
W of Lemberg @ 1500m
23 or 28 IAP. Details pending

8.8.41/1330
DB-3
E of Majewo
11 DBAP? They suffered at least 5 losses, crews of Ml.Lt. A I Pykhtin, Serzhant A Evdokimov, Ml.Lt. P T Krashenninikov, Ml.Lt. Nikolay Ilyich Alimbarashvili and Serzhant N I Mineev all failed to return. Another possibility is 8 DBAP, crew of Lt. Ivan Yakovlevich Korovin which was definitely lost to fighters

24.8.41/0855
"I-180"
S of Zaporozhe
162 IAP? They lost Ml.Lt. Andrey Panteleevich Tsaplagin KIA this date

14.9.41/0605
I-153 "Tchaika"
Jelesawetowka/Mironovka area
44 IAD Staff. This was probably claimed against Leytenant Grigoriy Kotscha. Overclaiming, as he managed to escape (also appears to have been claimed by Gollob)

19.9.41/1357
SB-3
Kotschubjewka
Possibly 316 ORAP. Crew of Ml.Lt. Yaroslav Leonidovich Bratolyubov

Unconfirmed
2.4.42/1530
Hurricane ("Spitfire")
Malta
BV174 of 229 sqn. P/O Andrews returned to base with damage

26.8.42/0830
Yak-7B
NW of Stalingrad @ 800m
(Wilcke and Wessling claimed as well)
Were these claimed against 900 IAP? They lost Lt. Viktor Alekseyevich Saburov KIA

7.9.42/1536
La-5
SW of Achtuba (PQ 49283) @ 2500m
3 GIAP or 27 IAP, 287 IAD, 8 VA. Definitely 3 La-5s lost this date

19.9.42/1144
Yak
1km SE of Kotluban @ 500m
8 VA (1 Yak-7B lost) or 16 VA (6 Yak-1s and 1 Yak-7B lost) or 102 IAD/PVO. 16 VA losses include Pavel Nikolaevich Bulaev of 520 IAP KIA and Ivan Yakovlevich Buldygin of 581 IAP

24.9.42/1103 and 1109
2 x Yak-1s
Stalingrad – Dubovka
8 VA (no known losses) or 16 VA (8 Yak-1s lost) or 102 IAD/PVO. 16 VA's losses include Mikhail Stepanovich Bubnov of 43 IAP, Serzhant Peter Korneevich Sednev of 520 IAP and Ilya Mikhaylovich Yuzhakov (AE CO) of 812 IAP. All KIA

27.9.42/1603
Stalingrad @ 4500m
8 VA (1 IL-2 lost this date) or 16 VA (no known losses this date). 8 VA's loss was 944 ShAP, Serzhant Pavel Vasilyevich Sytov
(Wilcke also claimed, so one must be an overclaim)

14.10.42/0707 and 0715
2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
20-25km NW of Stalingrad
Likely 245 ShAP. Losses include Evgeny Filippovich Baranov POW (liberated in January 1943). 954 ShAP lost Kapitan Arkady Ivanovich Buzev (AE CO) KIA
There were about 5 claims in total

17.10.42/0915
Yak-1
50km NE of Stalingrad @ 2000m
512 IAP. Starshiy Leytenant Ignatiy Biryukov

25.10.42/1039 and 1421
2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
Krasnoarmejsk – Stalingrad
686, 807 and 945 ShAP, 206 ShAD? (definitely in action this day). Losses include MSgt Sudarkin of 945 ShAP, forcelanded 5km S of Prishchevka (already damaged by Flak, finished off by a Bf109). 944 ShAP lost St. Serzhant Nikolay Sergeevich Smirnov KIA

26.10.42/1402, 1407, 1408 and 1412
4 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
Stalingrad – Beketovka
Day's IL-2 losses include 206 ShAD's Sgt. Malyshev KIA over Sarpinskiy Island. 686 ShAP, 807 ShAP, 811 ShAP and 945 ShAP all in action this date. 505 ShAP lost Serzhant Alexei Nikolaevich Sipigin KIA this date 807 ShAP lost Pavel Dmitrievich Shurigin in an alleged taran this date

27.10.42/1000
Yak-1
12km E of Krasnaja Sloboda
Day's losses in the Stalingrad sector include 11 IAP's Vitaliy Vasilievich Serkov KIA. Same unit lost Serzhant Vasily Ivanovich Titov on IL-2 escort mission and definitely to fighters was Nikolay Aleksandrovich Shershilov baled out failed to return

30.11.42/0810 and 0812
2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
Pitomnik – Kotluban
622 ShAP, 214 ShAD, 8 VA definitely in action over Pitomnik in the morning losing 6 planes and 5 crews including Kapitan Dobrokhotov and Serzhant Pyatiletov. 5 more were seriously damaged

15.4.43/1629 and 1630
2 x LaGG-3s
Kuban bridgehead
At least 9 LaGG-3s lost this day. 4 from 267 IAP, 2 from 979 IAP, 2 from 926 IAP and 1 from 269 IAP more specific info is impossible due to large number of claims/losses

29.1.44/1107
B-17 Flying Fortress
Mannheim-Bastogne
Definitely lost to fighters around this time was 42-31486 of 612th BS, 401st BG. 2/Lt. John Tannahill Jr and 7 others KIA, remaining 2 crewmen both POW

24.2.44/1312
2 x B-17 Flying Fortress HSS
One of these was very likely B-17G-25-BO Flying Fortress 42-31666 "Poncho Thalken" of 96th BS, 2nd BG (damaged by fighter, ditched in the sea)

24.2.44/1320
P-38G-5-LO Lightning
30km SE of Steyr @ 5000m
Likely 42-12815 of 95th FS, 82nd FG. George Milton Gearhard baled out near Windischgarten after combat with fighter identified as Fw190

24.4.44/1330
B-17F-115-BO Flying Fortress
Augsburg area @ 6500m
Most likely one of several claims for 42-30730/WW- of 369th BS, 306th BG. 2/Lt. David B Ramsey and crew all POW

24.4.44/1345
P-51B-5-NA Mustang
near Muenchen @ 6500m
This one likely one of several claims for 43-7103/OS-O of 357th FS, 355th FG. 2/Lt. Howard K Hillman KIA

15.8.44/1145
B-17 Flying Fortress
Daun-Kyllberg area (PQ PO to QO) @ 6500m
First one to be attacked was 42-31183/VK-Y "Bad Penny" of 358th BS, 303rd BG. 2/Lt. Arthur L Goss and one other KIA, remaining 7 crewmen all POW
(this appears to be one of at least 6 claims for her)

15.8.44/1146
B-17G-5-BO Flying Fortress
Koblenz area (PQ PP-PO-QO) @ 6500m
Definitely down at 1146 was 42-31224/VK-F "Helen Heaven" 2/Lt. Samuel C Smithy and 4 others POW, remaining 4 crewmen all KIA

13.9.44
B-17 Flying Fortress (rammed)
Believed to be overclaiming, possibly fiction. No known loss by ramming

6.10.44/1205
B-17G-40-VE Flying Fortress
Naunen-Brandenburg (PQ FF-FG-GF) @ 8000m
551st BS, 385th BG. Was this 42-98010/Q of2/Lt. Deloy Taylor and crew all KIA except one man POW. Or possibly 43-38217/P of 2/Lt. Raymond W Tuley and 5 others KIA, 3 POW or 43-38430/N of 1/Lt. Donald J Andreas and 3 others KIA, 5 POW

26.4.45
P-51D Mustang
Near Dilligen
Was this 44-72967 of 354th FG? - Appears to be last Mustang lost in ETO, apparently attributed to Flak

Re: Walther Dahl
 

Good morning,

these piecemeal bits are not sufficent to prove that the 128 are or are not a hoax.
The best assessment of this topic that I ever read is the article that falkeeins linked in post2.
I've also worked through this Dahl biography:
https://www.amazon.de/RITTERKREUZTR%...s=walther+dahl
but despite being enjoyable to read it rather uncritically features a 128-kill-list.
I hope one day we will find a contemporary statement or a rudder photo or another primary document that clarifies the matter totally.

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Walther Dahl
 

Maybe not, but when you are prepared to uncritically accept aces tallies without acknowledging overclaiming, I am surprised that actually bothers you

Re: Walther Dahl
 

Gentlemen,

First of all let me suggest to Michael "Knusel" not to trust this very "unreliable" Czech site.
I prefer the rigor of the list proposed by Hector.
When I asked him specific questions about his book "Rammjäger" in 1979, Walther Dahl advised me to read it again, making sure everything was correct. I had good reasons to doubt. A little later, in discussion with Walther Loos and especially Günther Ritzka, my doubts proved to be well founded.
Walther Dahl's voluntary collision with a B-17 on September 13, 1944 is pure fiction, none of his wingmen remember this event, there is no material loss to the Stab./JG 300 on that day. This voluntary collision does not appear in his "Leistungbuch" which Hans Ring gave me the copy, a document written during the war and therefore theoretically more reliable than his colourful autobiography . He nevertheless inverted the dates of September 11 and 13, 1944 in this document, the writing of which might have been entrusted to a not talented secretary. This Leistungbuch poses many other problems because it is often difficult to find allied losses at the places and times indicated. Unfortunately, I did not access Walther Dahl's logbook of the 1945 war missions, which may have dispelled some of my doubts because even the presence of both Fw. Walther Loos and Fw. Werner Bohnenkamp is an insoluble problem.


Finally, I find it very surprising that the impetuous Inspekteur der Tagjäger was able to perform as many war missions in 1945 and reach a total score of ... 133 aerial victories (see Leistungbuch's last page). But one thing is sure: "Ramm-Dahl" never rammed !


Regards
Jean-Yves Lorant

Re: Walther Dahl
 

Cheers, M. Lorant

I am amazed that anyone in the year 2018 still thinks that the mere listing of names with unsubstantiated "victory tallies" written alongside them comprises anything that might deserve the title of "research."

Re: Walther Dahl
 

Nick,

I have to say I really appreciate the detailed contributions you and others make on the Eastern Front air war. I do not research it but am very interested in it. All the more so when we finally see the Soviet losses and especially when we see names of real people.

Keep it up and thanks again.

Regards,

Martin Gleeson.

Re: Walther Dahl
 

I am also interested in Dahl's claims, and looked through the info you provided for 37 of his claims in detail. From what I can see, there are maybe 5 claims which are likely overclaimed or false. Another 2 or 3 where several pilots may have claimed the same a/c shot down. Several where we can't make any decision one way or the other because of the number of losses and the number of claims made by other pilots.
So of 128 claims, with the info you provided we could be down to 120. Hardly a difference to get worked up about. But what of the other 97 claims?
I have a note in my list that another thread on 12OCH has his total as 103,
but unfortunately, I couldn't readily find that thread again.
Johannes' research has his total as 89. If I was going to accept a figure, I'd probably go with that one.

Not sure what makes you think that, Nick. Who are you referring to? Are you sure that's not just your imagination and bias running riot in your own mind?

Peter

Re: Walther Dahl
 

Let us all interpret Nick's point as a clear reference to the reliability of the information given by www.luftwaffe.cz and continue with a peaceful, courteous discussion.

Re: Walther Dahl
 

Not sure what makes you think that, Nick. Who are you referring to? Are you sure that's not just your imagination and bias running riot in your own mind?

Peter[/quote]

Peter,

Yes, let's talk about imagination and bias for a moment, shall we?

Once again you try to paint me as somebody with psychological issues because I make a stand against Knusel's use of sources that are almost good enough to be called dodgy and the fact that he volunteers to ignore the simple concept that if (for example) Hartmann's tally consists of a disproportionate amount of overclaims, then does he really deserve the title of "top ace". Which then brings the question:

So what is the POINT of all these lists he is "meticulously, painstakingly" compiling?

In an age when we finally CAN compare the victories and losses of both sides, the mere listing of men's names with numbers beside them
Hartmann 352
Barkhorn 301
Rall 275... etc....

Is utterly obsolete.

This is a concept that the moderator, Nick Beale, has also expressed his agreement of yet you never challenge him on that point, Peter. Nor does Knusel answer that question satisfactorily. In fact, Knusel gets quite rude and speaks down to people that challenge him on it. Kind of belies his "good evening gentlemen / have a nice Friday" act. More fool anyone hoodwinked by it.

I say to you, not for the first time, that you have walked in halfway into the discussion, picked a side and been blinded to the issues of that side...

The pair of you dare to wonder why Knusel feels discriminated against. It's as easy as this, if you talk down to a moderator, only ever milk the forum for as much as info as you can get for free, never answer anyone else's query and volunteer to give people the "internet version of the silent treatment" when they call you out on it (I say again, including moderators)... ....you can't expect them to defend you when somebody stands up to you and has given up on being polite about it.

Take the time to read and spend the money on a decent book that looks at BOTH sides of an aerial campaign instead of engaging in endless "What do you think of this Wikipedia article, Michael? "Oh I googled it and Osprey says this Peter" discussions.

And you know what, I'll risk a ban rather than leave all this unsaid because this crud is the slow death of a once great forum. The pair of you are asking professional authors and dedicated researchers to give you information that they have spend valuable time and money on.... ...for free. And when you are not doing that, you are discussing sources that do indeed contain the information but in plagiarised form.
What about the profit the authors and researchers deserve for their hard work....? You're asking for their help here and all the rest of the time undermining their hard work and profits.

So yes, think what you like. And yes, Nick Beale and John Beaman, go ahead and ban me if you wish. It's time these two were bloody well told.

Re: Walther Dahl
 

Martin, you're very welcome

Re: Walther Dahl
 

Most probably truth is in-between, Dahl was a bit "liar" like the other aces, maybe a bit more than some others, in-between his 133 victories nd the only plane flown by him , a Storch, even at some special period !!!
He didn't received the RK for nil
What deserve a lot Dahl, are his activities after the war, I met him in Munich at a moment where he spent all his time on bed, wrote some kind words on my copy of his book...
About sites like the Cze one, at least they made first compilation available to everybody, not everybody can spent a whole live to search for one soldier career or an unique unit , a handful , for thousand of aces.

Rémi

Re: Walther Dahl
 

I definitely acknowledge your point here on luftwaffe.cz, Rémi. You will see my name in the acknowledgements on the home page of that site. At the time it was compiled it was indeed ground-breaking in some ways.

Yet I am perfectly prepared to own the fact that the site is is very much out of date and has been so for a long time now

Re: Walther Dahl
 

Good evening Mr Lorant,

wow !
Thanks a lot for your post and for sharing this document.
Can you tell me if he flew an Fw190 for his claims #105-116 ?

Sincerely,

Michael

Walther Dahl
 

Hi guys

Just a point about www.luftwaffe.cz - yes, the information by now is out of date and much new information has come to light since the web site was last updated in August 2007. However, at the time it was based on the best information available and had the input of some very serious researchers. Some of the people involved have dedicated immense amounts of time and money in their research and still do to this day. It is a shame that Kacha has not updated his web site but if he ever does many of us will be more than willing to help once again.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Walther Dahl
 

I would gladly give of my findings. My latest:

Heinrich Graf von Einsiedel

1st and 2nd claims
12.2.42/1347 and 1350
2 x Swordfish TB 1s
Into sea 10km N of Gravelines/Off Dunkirk
825 sqn FAA. Includes W5984 of Lt. Cdr. Eugene Esmonde VC, Lt. Williams and PO Clinton all KIA; W5983 of SubLt. B W Rose WIA, SubLt. E Lee (both rescued by MTB) and LAM A G Johnson KIA, W5907 of SubLt. C M Kingsmill, SubLt. Samples and LAM D A Bunce all WIA and all rescued by MTB; V4523 of Lt. John Chute Thompson, SubLt. Wright and LAM Tapping all KIA; W5985 of SubLt. Cecil Ralph Wood, SubLt. Parkinson and LAM Wheeler all KIA plus W5978 of SubLt. Peter Bligh, SubLt. Benyon and LAM Smith all KIA
(versus 9 claims)

3rd claim
29.6.42/1850
IL-2 Sturmovik
Day's IL-2 losses include 874 ShAP, St. Serzhant Vikentii Vasilievich Turetskii KIA
(either Einsiedel or Wessling downed him so far as I can tell)

5th claim
4.7.42/1800
Pe-2 (given as a “P-2”)
2 VA. Was this from 723 BAP? They lost WOP/Gunner Ml.Serzhant Ivan Philipovich Khilko KIA this date

6th and 7th claims
9.7.42/1925 and 1927
2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
Voronezh @ low altitude
Believe this was the engagement in which 525 ShAP lost Serzhant Viktor Andreevich Tihankin KIA on Voronezh Front

9th claim
22.7.42/0925
I-16 “Rata”
Earlier info indicated 40 IAP, 217 IAD, 4 VA. But certainly 483 IAP (temporarily assigned to the 238 ShAD from the 265 IAD) lost 2 I-16s this date, pilots' names pending

12th claim
27.7.42/1740
MiG-1
NE of Kalatsch @ 2500m
8 VA. Total of 11 losses this day. Definite losses near Kalatsch were St. Lt. A N Azarov of 6 IAP KIA and St. Serzhant Alexander Semenovich Angelov of 148 IAP KIA. 929 IAP lost Mayor Farit Muhametzjanovich Fatkulin KIA

19th and 20th claims
9.8.42/0610
2 x MiG-3s
E of Kalatsch
8 VA. A likely JG 3 victim was Lt. Stepan Stepanovich Stovba of 20 IAP KIA this date near Abganerovo

21st and 22nd claims
12.8.42/0445 and 0452
2 x LaGG-3s
Stalingrad
235 IAD, 8 VA. Seven fighter losses in total, details pending

26th claim
19.8.42/0520
MiG-1
S of Rachinka
Possibly Vasilij Artemyovich Kolesnik of 88 IAP, WIA by Bf109s

27th claim
20.8.42/0530
MiG-3
8 VA. Day's fighter losses over Stalingrad include 515 IAP's Serzhant Aleksey Stepanovich Serov KIA and 20 IAP lost Kapitan Sergey Semenovich Tarasov (AE CO) KIA. 148 IAP lost one pilot baled out safely

28th – 31st claims
20.8.42/1621, 1623, 1625 and 1627
4 x Pe-2s
SE of Stalingrad
86 BAP and 779 BAP, thirteen losses to fighters and one to flak. Boris Davydovich Spicarev was a gunner/navigator on one of the 86 BAP aircraft. One of the pilots was Andrey Petrovich Tanchuk as was Lt. Petr Konstantinovich Shurov

32nd claim
21.8.42/1800
IL-2 Sturmovik
E of lake Ssarpa
Probably the engagement in which Vladimir Yakovlevich Shpilevoy of 621 ShAP was KIA

33rd claim
23.8.42/1240
Yak-7? ("I-180")
N of Stalingrad
8 VA. Their Yak losses to fighters include 12 IAP's Kapitan Grigorii Dmitrievich Yudin and Alexei Pavlovich Bochakov KIA. 515 IAP lost Ml.Lt. Ivan Ivanovich Toninskij KIA and 296 IAP lost Ml.Lt. Sergey Ivanovich Furgalev KIA

34th claim
24.8.42/1353
Yak-1 ("MiG-1")
N of Leninsk airfield (Zaplavnoye)
269 IAP, 288 IAD, 8 VA. St.Lt. Vladimir Balashov ORB, ORS KIA
(Also appears to have been claimed by Karl-Heinz Langer)

Walther Dahl
 

Hello Nick

Yes, I am sure that you will. I believe that one of the reasons that Kacha abandoned work on his web site was that he began a family, if I am not mistaken. I must say that I have found your posts regarding the identification of the various opponents of Luftwaffe aces to be of great value and immediately update my aces thumbnail biographies with it as soon as possible. Many thanks for your efforts!

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Walther Dahl
 

Thank you, Leo.
Since, in a conversation about Walther Dahl, we are talking a JG 3 pilot....
...Here's another.

Wilhelm Lemke

3rd claim
27.6.41/1520
DB-3
Lemberg
Day's DB-3/IL-4 losses include 3 from 96 DBAP alone: crews of Lts. Konstantin Vasilevich Spirin, Petr Grigorievich Romanenko and Mikhail Savelievich Minikaev all failed to return. 53 DBAP suffered one damaged crew of Lt. Nikolai Andreevich Bulygin made it back with 100 bullet holes. 21 DBAP lost WOP/gunner Yakov Ruvimovich Khaikin KIA

4th claim
29.6.41/1905
IL-2 Sturmovik (“V-11”)
4 ShAP? Many losses to Flak and fighters. 1 AE lost 1860902 StLt V T Filippov, 1861701 of MlLt G P Chukhno, 1864903 of Lt N D Konov and 1861501 of Lt M Shakirdzhano. 2 AE lost 1861504 of Lt I A Gritsevich. 3 AE lost 1861503 of StLt A D Kuz'min and 1864604 of StLt S Ya Gottel'f. 4 AE lost 1862502 of Lt M S Varfolomeev and 5 AE lost 1862803 of Lt A M Pushin, 1860402 of MlLt E P Sosnik and and 1861304 of Lt V D Baranov all MIA. Bellylanded were 1861601 of StLt S V Pleshkov at Mogileva and 1860404 of Lt S R Sorokov at Rogacheva (both 5AE) and 1864204 of MlLt K I Krotov (AE and location unknown) Other losses this date include 215 ShAP, St. Lt. Vasily Nikolaevich Frolov KIA near Witebsk

13th claim
25.7.41/1840
SB-3
Possibly the engagement in which 209 BAP lost gunner Lt. Vladimir Ivanovich Tomillo KIA

Unconfirmed claim
9.8.41
DB-3
Only loss I have found for this date is 21 DBAP, crew of Lt. Nikolay Gavrilovich Ozeranin brought down by flak and fighters. There were at least 11 claims additional to this one

20th claim
31.3.42/1510
“I-301”
Tschertowschina @ 300m
This may actually have been a Hurricane from 157 IAP, Major Vyacheslav Georgiievich Turenko KIA

21st, 22nd and 23rd claims
4.4.42/1805, 1810 and 1815
3 x “I-61s”
VVS Northwestern Front. Day's losses include Mikhail Aleksandrovich Balashov of 238 IAP WIA in aircombat whilst 295 IAP lost Ivan Petrovich Boyarovich

24th claim
5.4.42/1310
“I-61”
3km S of Meshinski @ 200m
VVS Northwestern Front. Day's fighter losses include Serzhant Viktor Vasilyevich Snegirev of 291 IAP KIA. 21 IAP lost Lt. Stepan Demyanovich Stel′mahov KIA

26th claim
19.5.42/1645
N of Kosewedenyan (Korunschenyan) @ 200m
Said to have come from 429 IAP but definitely lost near Izyum was 23 IAP, Vladimir Vasilievich Basov carrying Vasily Fyodorovich Serdyuk as a passenger both KIA

27th claim
27.5.42/0415
IL-2 Sturmovik
3km S of Chuguyev @ 20m
431 ShAP (attacked Chuguyev airfield this day). Likely overclaiming as the Russians claimed to have downed two Bf109s that tried to attack and no losses were mentioned

29th claim
24.6.42/1813
Pe-2 ("Yak-4")
NE of Schtschignoye @ 2000m
723 BAP. 4 losses: Kapt. Mikhail Fedorovich Migal' (AE CO), St. Lt. Nikolay Sergeevich Ligusha, Ml. Lt. Vladimir Dmitrievich Popov and St. Serzhant Petr Vasil'evich Diribin all MIA
Bitsch claimed 2 and Schopper claimed another, 4 losses and 4 claims, legitimate victories

30th and 31st claims
24.6.42/1817 and 1819
2 x “MiG-3s”
Possibly the engagement in which Starshiy Serzhant Fedor Petrovich Babichev of 31 IAP was KIA in a LaGG-3

36th claim
27.7.42/1815
LaGG-3
NE of Kalatsch @ 2000m
8 VA. Total of 11 losses this day. Definite losses near Kalatsch were St. Lt. A N Azarov of 6 IAP KIA and St. Serzhant Alexander Semenovich Angelov of 148 IAP KIA. 929 IAP lost Mayor Farit Muhametzjanovich Fatkulin KIA

40th and 41st claims
29.7.42/1745 and 1750
2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
Tschirskaya – Loschki
8 VA. One of these was possibly from 66 ShAP (or 568 ShAP), Sergei Alekseevich Feoktistov forcelanded in Russian territory WIA and sent to hospital

44th and 45th claims
13.8.42/1745 and 1805
2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
Were these the losses suffered by 568 ShAP, 226 ShAD, 8 VA? Pilots V K Solej (baled out) and N A Kulikov (bellylanded) in Dmitrovka/Voropanovo sector, I G Kulakov baled out as well, Lt. Viktor Mikhailovich Bolshakov KIA. 688 ShAP lost Lt. Iosif Zakarovich Sitnik (AE CO) KIA

46th – 48th claims
21.8.42/1738 - 1755
LaGG-3, IL-2 Sturmovik, LaGG-3
Zazza sector
The LaGGs:
8 VA. Day's fighter losses include Yak-1 of 515 IAP, Starshiy Serzhant Mikhail Ivanovich Beshagin KIA. Day's likely losses to JG 3 include Yakob Vasilievich Chizhov of 6 IAP KIA
The IL-2:
8 VA. Day's IL-2 losses include Vladimir Yakovlevich Shpilevoy of 621 ShAP KIA

49th claim
23.8.42/1510
“MiG-1”
Srednaja @ 1800m
8 VA. Their Yak losses to fighters include 12 IAP's Kapitan Grigorii Dmitrievich Yudin and Alexei Pavlovich Bochakov KIA. 515 IAP lost Ml.Lt. Ivan Ivanovich Toninskij KIA and 296 IAP lost Ml.Lt. Sergey Ivanovich Furgalev KIA

51st claim
28.8.42/0630
"I-180"
Stalingrad @ 3000m
8 VA. Was this claimed against Mikhail Trofimovich Shaboltas of 437 IAP KIA in crash back at base after combat with fighters escorting Ju88s? (very likely one of JG 3’s claims in the morning)

52nd and 53rd claims
30.8.42/0922 and 0928
2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
Ravkovo – Samydovo sectors
228 ShAD, 8 VA. 618 ShAP lost Serzhant Valentin Filoppovich Titov KIA, 783 ShAP lost Lt. Sabur Muhamedzyanovich Hajrov KIA

54th and 55th claims
30.8.42/1700 and 1705
2 x “MiG-3s”
Tundutov sector
8 VA. 867 IAP lost Vladimir Petrovich Skachko KIA. 126 IAP lost Lt. Vladimir Yevgenyevich Shumilov KIA and 237 IAP lost Lt. Sergei Mikhailovich Yakovlev KIA

59th claim
11.9.42/1045
IL-2 Sturmovik
4km N of Stalingrad @ 50m
This one likely an overclaim. 8 VA does not appear to have actually lost any IL-2s this date

60th claim
13.9.42/1235
“MiG-1”
20km NE of Stalingrad @ 2000m
Likely a misidentified Yak. 8 VA lost 2 Yak-1s and 7 Yak-7B and 16 VA lost 4 Yak-1s. One of the 8 VA losses was 274 IAP, 288 IAD's Aleksiy Samoylovich Babich KIA. 16 VA lost 867 IAP, 220 IAD's Serzhant Alim Shahrustamovich Bammatov KIA

62nd claim
18.9.42/0544
IL-2 Sturmovik
near Kotluban Railway Station
228 ShAD or 291 ShAD. Losses include a whole formation of 6 IL-2s from 245 ShAP. Losses in total: 8 VA (2 IL-2s lost this date) and 16 VA (12 IL-2s lost this date including that of Maj. Konstantin Vasilyevich Yarovoi and St.Serzhant Vasily Ivanovich Tuzukov, 688 ShAP. 954 ShAP (16 VA) lost Ml.Lt. Tikhon Ivanovich Khudyakov KIA
Strongly believe this is one of the 245 ShAP losses because of all the claims around this time

64th claim
28.9.42/0535
“MiG-3”
5km NNW of Akhtuba @ 500m
Day's fighter losses include Starshina Georgi Trofimovich Berezhko of penal squadron, 268 IAD KIA. 563 IAP lost Pavel Nikitovich Tokman′ KIA

65th claim
28.9.42/0540
IL-2 Sturmovik
3km E of Stalingrad @ 700m
8 VA (3 IL-2s lost) or 16 VA (6 IL-2s lost). 8 VA's losses include Kapitan Ivan Stepanovich Balakin of 285 ShAP, 228 ShAD KIA

68th claim
9.10.42/1310
“MiG-3”
8km NE of Baskowskoye @ 100m
Possibly the engagement in which 520 IAP lost Serzhant Georgiy Georgievich Cherkasov failed to return

70th claim
21.10.42/0845
LaGG-3
Possibly 512 IAP, Batalyonnyy Kommissar Ivan Mamykin KIA (their total losses were three aircraft, and he was the only pilot lost). 237 IAP also lost its CO Mayor Mikhail Mordvinov

71st claim
27.10.42/1505
“MiG-3”
20km NNE of Leninsk
Day's losses in the Stalingrad sector include 11 IAP's Vitaliy Vasilievich Serkov KIA. Same unit lost Serzhant Vasily Ivanovich Titov on IL-2 escort mission and definitely to fighters was Nikolay Aleksandrovich Shershilov baled out failed to return

73rd claim
8.11.42/0710
LaGG-3
2km N of Akhtuba airfield @ 100m
There were several claims for “MiGs” and “LaGG-3s” throughout the day, was one of these actually the La-5 of 27 IAP, Anatolij Dmitrievich Bilyukin KIA?

74th claim
10.11.42/1020
Pe-2
5km SE of Kalschalinskaya @ 7500m
Probably 8 ORAP, St. Lt. Pyotr Ivanovich Rozhkov and crew all KIA. However, definitely KIA by Bf109s was gunner Anatoli Ilyich Bogomolov of 324 ODRAE

86th claim
27.12.42/1000
LaGG-3
12km NE of Miljatorskaya (Milintinskaya?)
Possibly St.Serzhant Boris Sergeevich Shiryaev of 508 IAP KIA

93rd claim
10.2.43/1420
Boston
15km N of Artemovsk @ 2000m
Was this from 45 BAP? They suffered some losses this date. Details pending

94th claim
11.2.43/1035
Boston
12km E of Kramortskaya @ 7000m
Despite the altitude suggesting PR aircraft, was this from 57 BAP? Ml.Lt. Vladimir Vasilyevich Cherkasov and crew all MIA-KIA
(note that von Boremski also claimed a Boston this date. Either he or Lemke caused the loss it would seem)

104th claim
2.6.43/1350
LaGG-3
W of Kursk @ 4000m
Likely a misidentified Yak. Day's Yak losses in Kursk region include Yak-7B of Starshiy Serzhant Stepan Yakovenko, 487 IAP KIA (allegedly in parachute) by Bf109; Yak-1 of 519 IAP St. Lt. Vasiliy Grigor'evich Mikhalev (AE CO) KIA; Yak-1 of 56 GIAP Gv.Ml Lt. Aleksandr Pavlovich Konov KIA; Yak-1 of 563 IAP (St. Lt. Nikolay Alekseevich Naydenov (AE CO) returned to base, damaged; Yak-1 of 55 GIAP Gv.Lt. Stepan Safronovich Tkachenko (deputy AE CO) KIA; Yak-1 of 54 GIAP Mayor Aleksey Petrovich Kichigin (AE CO) KIA; Yak-1 of 54 GIAP Gv.Ml.Lt. Vladimir Mikhaylovich Berezin KIA; Yak-1 of 53 GIAP Gv.Ml. Lt. Arkadiy Grigor'evich Degtyarev (deputy AE CO) KIA; Yak-1 of 53 GIAP Gv.Serzhant Vladimir Vasil'evich Laktin KIA. Additionally, 565 IAP were definitely in action this date, Gennadiy Georgievich Syrejshikov committed a taran and baled out

111th and 112th claims
20.6.43/0348 and 0350
2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
NE of Yeysk @ low altitude
3 AE, 47 ShAP ChF. Ml. Lt. Kirill Efimovich Gerasimov and Serzh. Nikolay Viktorovich Borisenko both KIA

114th and 115th claims
5.7.43/1812 and 1830
2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
Korotsche – Belgorod
2 GShAD (2 losses) and 299 ShAD (14 losses, of which 217 ShAP alone lost 6 IL-2s in a single mission and 3 in another (one bellylanded and the other 2 returning with gunners WIA, one of which DOW)

116th claim
6.7.43/0935
La-5
NW of Belgorod @ 600m
Day's La-5 losses include Nikolay Ivanovich Sagan, CO of 1AE, 927 IAP (part of 4 VA) KIA near Zadol'noye. Same unit lost Serzhant Viktor Mikhailovich Shchupletsov also KIA

119th claim
8.7.43/1203
LaGG-3
N of Belgorod @ 2000m
Day's LaGG-3 losses include Major Moisei Stepanovich Tokarev, HSU, 2 x OL, ORB, OPW 1st class and Medal for Courage of 40 GIAP, KIA

126th and 127th claims
17.8.43/1715 and 1726
2 x P-47 Thunderbolts
NE of Liege @ 9000m
56th FG. P-47C-5-RE 41-6398/LM- of 62nd FS, Lt. Robert Stultz KIA (crashed at Vreren) and P-47D-1-RE 42-7891/LM-M of Lt. Voorhis Day KIA (crashed at Warsage)

129th and 130th claims
14.10.43/1439 and 1445
B-17F-40-DL Flying Fortress
20km W of Schweinfurt @ 7000m
Both of these claims appear to tie in with 42-3269/FO-U "Piccadilly Willy" of 527th BS, 379th BG. Capt. Walter F Carnal Jr and 7 others POW, remaining 2 crewmen all KIA. Came down 1445hrs UST at Machtilshausen, 10 miles W of Schweinfurt

131st claim
30.11.43/1125
P-47D-5-RE Thunderbolt
Neerpelt @ 10500m or Tilburg (PQ KL-8) @ 9000m (came down at Oirschot)
42-8411/PZ- of 486th FS, 352nd FG. Lt. Robert M Brown KIA

Re: Walther Dahl
 

Hello to all

A substantial amount of information being presented, for which I for one am most appreciative. I wonder if Jean-Yves Lorant, could post the page of Dahl's Lesitungsbuch covering claims 105 to 116, otherwise there is a nice big gap on what Dahl was up to in that period and I have not seen anything covering these claims anywhere and certainly as not as comprehensively as the pages before and after..

Thanks in advance

Russell

Re: Walther Dahl
 

Hi Michael,

Except for his inexplicable lie about the September 13 voluntary collision, the victories claimed by Walther Dahl during the year 1944 (he confused however November 2 and 5) are consistent and credible. The discomfort settles as soon as he takes over as Inspekteur der Tagjäger at the end of January 1945, as apparently continues to fly regularly with his wingmen from the Stab./JG 300. I would like to know from what airfields it happened. Assigned to the Stab./JG 300 at the fall of 1944, Unteroffizier Günther Ritzka was certain never have seen his former Kommodore again from February to May 1945.
Claims 105-116: Dahl was flying Fw 190s. He flew again a Me 262 on 24 and 26 April 1945.
The analytical work done by Nick Hector about Wilhelm Lemke and Heinrich Graf von Einsiedel is very impressive, my congratulations. When I visited Wolfgang Ewald in the 1980s, he was still angry about his former wingman von Einsiedel, who had joined the communist theses during his captivity in the Soviet Union and came to boast of the advantages of the "Soviet paradise" to a stunned Wolfgang Ewald. As always in this kind of conversion, we may wonder if this was not a strategy to shorten the captivity duration ...


Regards
Jean-Yves Lorant

Re: Walther Dahl
 

we may wonder if this was not a strategy to shorten the captivity duration ...

Or reflect the fact that at that time , communism was not only a paradise , but also the future for Europe nd the whole world, but events , with help of Franco nd WW II, bias the trend ..

Rémi

Many thks for all the facts regarding the achievments of Walther Dahl, I always thought that Dahl, was not the bad boy depaint after the war

Re: Walther Dahl
 

Good evening Mr. Lorant,

thanks a lot for the additional info.
I keep trying hard to identify the date indicated for claim #100.
I remember having heard Dahl said his 100th kill was achieved on 1March.
However, the date in your Leistungsbuch looks more like a 4March...(?)

Best greetings from Brandenburg,

Michael

Re: Walther Dahl
 

[quote=Jean-Yves Lorant;258017]
As always in this kind of conversion, we may wonder if this was not a strategy to shorten the captivity duration ...

Even after the fall of the Berlin wall he was appearing in Guido Knopp documentaries stating what a great idea his defection had been. That's not exactly boasting about the communist paradise but he certainly seemed to miss the point that the Soviet system was as murderous as the Nazi one

Re: Walther Dahl
 

Important issue but not connected with Dahl.

Can you identify the date of Dahl's 100th claim on Mr. Lorant's document ?

Re: Walther Dahl
 

Dahl and Einsiedel both served in III./JG 3 during the Stalingrad fighting. As two men who served beside each other in the same unit, it is interesting to contrast the accuracy of their claiming and how their political beliefs played out. One remained fiercely National Socialist, the other embraced Communism

Re: Walther Dahl
 

IMHO, I believe Einsiedel only embraced Communism because he did not believe Hitler would win the war and he wanted to have a better existence after he was shot down.
I have his book and don't find any whole hearted support for Communism.
Remember, he came from an aristocratic family and these generally don't turn into communists

Also, we can look at the case of Graf who also became more Communist leaning after becoming a Russian POW

Re: Walther Dahl
 

Interesting to know, is his book fairly available?

Re: Walther Dahl
 

Here is a brief but interesting study of Dahl at 2:39 in the sunglasses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9ATh-7nQZk

Don Pearson and G.R. Morrison provided the pilot IDs in this film.

This weekly newsreel was in the cinemas on 4 June 1944.

At 2:32 - Kemethmüller
2:35 - Lt. Dieter Zink, posing in front of 'Tutti' Müller's Kommodoremaschine of the JG 3*
2:39 - Walter Dahl
2:43 - 'Tutti' Müller with Dahl
2:46 - Moritz

Re: Walther Dahl
 

Hello Jean-Yves,

Yes, I agree, there was never any evidence (aside from his book!) of Dahl's intentional crash into a B-17 on September 13, 1944. Most telling, there is no mention of the "ramming" on that date in his flugbüch. However, Dahl did record claims for an Abschuss & Herrausschutz against B-17s on September 13. Attached is the relevant page from Dahl's FB.

Regards,

Russ

Re: Walther Dahl
 

Good morning Russ,

thanks for posting this interesting document.
However, as far a I can see the Flugbuch entry for 1+1HSS kills is for 13Sep.
Is there an according entry in his Leistungsbuch ? (Mr Lorant mentioned above that there is no ramming documented in the latter.)

Best autumn greetings from Germany,

Michael