Top Bf 109 aces
 

Dear gentlemen

this list compiles all aces with 150 or more Bf 109 kills. Enjoy.
I would be very intrested in the exact Bf 109 score of Stotz.
Michael

1. Hartmann 352
2. Barkhorn 301
3. Rall 275
4. Batz 237
5. Graf 212
6. Lipfert 203
7. Ehrler 200
8. Schuck 198
9. Krupinski 195
10.Kirschner 188
11.Brändle 180
12.Bär 179
13.Weissenberger 177
14.Reinert 174
15.Schmidt 173
16.Steinhoff 169
17.Stotz ~163
18.Wilcke 162
19.Sturm 158
20.Marseille 158
21.Düttmann 152
22.Beisswenger 152
23.Hafner 151

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

Michael

have you done any (recent) reading around the subject ?

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

What do you mean ?

M

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

Hi Michael

Only Hartmann, Weissenberger, Krupinski and Schmidt are listed correctly with Bf109 confirmations. Schuck had only a total of 181 plus 25 unconfirmed, the others slightly less in each case, in my opinion! Düttmann had some 1945 panzers counted as aircraft!!!

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

Good evening Johannes,

very intresting.
What is your source ?

Michael

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

Michael, you're obviously very new here so I will explain. You never ask Johannes what his source is, because Johannes IS THE SOURCE. Think of it like this: You wouldn't question Zeus on where Mount Olympus was would you? It's kind of the same thing. First, there was the Luftwaffe. Now, there is Johannes.

Trust me on this: he is correct. Also, don't bug him too much. He doesn't post often, and we don't want to waste his time with posts about very basic information.

Thank you,

Bronc

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

If I may... I remember upsetting a TOCH member greatly because I dared to try and discuss an issue further with a member under nickname Seaplanes, who posted reply to my initial query on the He 51 designation. Part of the problem was that I just did not know who I was conversing with. And I still don't know it to this date. And... that is perfectly fine. It is a privacy issue, I do not need to know.

However, in order to try and avoid misunderstandings like these, can the individuals who made (far) greater contribution in the field than the rest of us, be given some elevated status (irrespective of the number of their posts) on the TOCH, so they can be approached with a healthy respect thereby avoiding (petty) queries on their sources, or the like?

This is just a proposal for consideration. There might be certain limitations in the software that runs the TOCH that I am not aware of, or the proposal itself cannot be given the green light, or ...

Regards,
Sinisa

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

There are dozens, maybe 100, serious, respected, (renown) world-class researchers, resources and authors on TOCH. Many of them don't post all that often, and it's best not to waste their time with posts about very basic information.

The archives contain vast stores of knowledge, and they should be consulted.

It's an honor and a privilege to be here. This should never be forgotten.

Thank you,

Bronc

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

Thanks for the complement Bronc

Michael

You base your totals on the old accepted totals, these are sometimes including unconfirmed claims, sometimes like Kurt Tanzer I just cannot see how their totals are given. My source is the micro films listing Staffel/daily Luftwaffe claims, these have few mistakes, have areas missing, but are consistant. They run-out in late 1944.

Regarding Stotz, we all previously all led to believe a total of 189. In the Oetersen air museum a total of 183 is given. On the micro films 182 + 1 unconfirmed. Last 173 in the East. Personally I do not have access to the Russian losses, however other specialist enthusiasts have perused his claims and concluded that Stotz was a honest claimer until he crossed-paths with Hans"Assi" Hahn, then his claims like his Gruppenkommandeur are spectacular and rather dis-honest, then upon Hahn's capture they return to a normal
claim pattern and honesty.

My friend Bernd Barbas knew Heinrich Sturm's wingman. We quizzed this wingman when we couldn't find the 150+ claims for Sturm, his wingman told us that a total of around 130 was more realistic.

If you or anybody else would like "my" list of all claimers i.e any Luftwaffe pilot claiming at least one confirmed kill, then drop me a personal e.mail . I have found so far 7600 claimers, of which 2600 were 5+ aces.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

Dear Johannes,

thanks for the information.
Do you think there is a common reason or tendency for the widely printed wrong totals or do we have to consider each case differently ?

Have a nice week,

Michael

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

Good afternoon Gentlemen,

the Bf 109 was a real multi-national fighter.
The top aces of

• Germany (Erich Hartmann)
• Finland (Ilmari Juutilainen)
• Rumania (Alexandru Serbanescu)
• Croatia (Mato Dukovac)
• Slovakia (Jan Reznak)
• Hungary (Dezsö Szentgyörgyi)
• Bosnia (Safet Boskic)
• and Slovenia (Albin Starc)

scored most or all of their kills in that aircraft, respectively.
I wonder if we can add Danish top ace Peter Horn.
Did he score his most kills in the Bf 109 or the Fw 190 ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

I think that 33.090 Bf109's were built:

1. 23.363 Bf109G's - top ace: Erich Hartmann
2. 3.707 Bf109E's - top ace: Werner Mölders
3. 3.278 Bf109F's - top ace: Gordon Gollob
4. 1.597 Bf109K's - top ace: Günther Landt
5. 647 Bf109D's - top ace: Walter Oesau & Otto Bertram & maybe Wilhelm Ensslen
6. 350 Bf109B's - top ace: Harro Harder & Peter Boddem
7. 70 Bf109T's - top ace: any ?
8. 58 Bf109C's - top ace: Werner Mölders
9. 20 Bf109A's - top ace: any ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

and italian Hugo Drago of ANR?? no? top ace with bf.109

Michel

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

Good evening Michel,

Drago flew the Bf 109 but he wasn't the top ace of his nation unlike the other eight guys of that list.

I've found an interesting candidate for the Bf 109T top ace rank: Alfred Jakobi
Does anybody how many kills he scored in that subtype ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

Good evening,

in Le Fana de l'Aviation N°546 there's an article by Xavier Méal "La Luftwaffe rends les armes" that indicates on p24 that Erich Hartmann achieved his last kill in a Me109K-4.

Michael

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

Now all you need to do is establish the source for that statement.

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

I would not put Erich Hartmann to the top for sure. I can imagine that he wasn't even among the top 5 or 10. (I mean if you are interested in real victories, not just in old, fancy legends, or LW propaganda.) Old story, no time to go through it again.

Gabor

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

Gabor,

Certainly a huge thanks from me for opening my eyes to that fact. As far as the destruction of REAL enemy aeroplanes is concerned, Hartmann is absolutely nothing special

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

It would also be nice to have it proven that the victory was not just another overclaim

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

Thanks Nick, you are welcome ;-))) I must add that I never stated that Hartmann did not hit those enemy aircrafts, what I say is that most of his official 'kills' were probably just damaged planes which cannot be verified from the soviet/allied losses at all. Hartmann openly talked about his tactics of diving on the enemy AC with full speed and opening fire just in the final moments. It is not hard to see that in such circumstances the actual crash in many cases could not be seen, only some hits on the opponent. I think Hartmann gave the most headache to the soviet ground crews patching up the damaged soviet planes after their missions. ;-))))

Gabor

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

Please not another discussion about validity of claims.
This has been abundantly discussed in scores of other threads.

Here I simply want to find out if Hartman flew a Bf190K (and not a Bf109G) on the last day of the war in Europe.

Michael

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

Then you will have a lot of research to undertake in different archives and even then you may never resolve the question.

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

'simply' is not a word to be taken lightly when it comes to WWII air war.:)

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

Hello Stig,

the word 'simply' refers to the question for Hartmann's last plane being very prosaic compared to talking about the validity of scores which always stirs up the emotions of several forum members.

Michael

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

Please not another discussion of who shot down the most planes in the Bf109G based on painstaking meticulous research of the appendices in the backs of John Weal's little golden book of 109 Aces, that got old ages ago too

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

According to the last researches by Dénes Bernard (French magazine "Avions" 209-210 January/April 2016), Rumanian top ace is Cantacuzino with 45 confirmed victories (1 shared), Serbanescu is credit with 44. I don’t know how many claimed with Bf109.

Flavio

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

Hello Nick,

I like John Weal's work and I wish I had more books written by him.
I consider your cynisms against John Weal and his readers like me, presumptuous.
Feel free to just ignore my threads, I wouldn't be cross with you.

Michael

Hello Flavio,

thanks for the hint. Indeed ,Cantacuzino was the top Rumanian ace by Rumanian standards.
But if you apply the standards of the of Axis nations to the Rumanian aces (unconfirmed not counted, shared as decimals...), Serbanescu is the man.

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

Back in the earlier incarnation of this forum, a far more creditable author (not that you'd own any of his works...) called John Weal out for plagiarism.

But say, Kunsel speaking of presumptuous, did you ever apologise to Nick Beale for your initial criticism of him way back when you first joined this forum....? Something about the world's most brilliant researchers... ...and a guy called Nick Beale

And as for ignoring your threads... ...getting them closed down is a lot of fun

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

The criticism you will find here about John Weal's work is far from presumptuous, it is based on years of actual research into wartime sources. His books do offer a useful overview at a comparatively low price but, however much you like them, they are not necessarily accurate.

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

Oh, I already guessed that this is your primary intention but I'm really surprised that you admit it.
That makes not answering your posts a question of keeping the thread open. Good to know.

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

I think Donald Caldwell's epithet for him was very apt and accurate: John "Toxic Waste" Weal. That was back when the forum consisted of more than just Weal's fans...

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

Aggressive, discriminatory and not witty. Just a failed joke-attempt.

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

Don Caldwell's words, not mine....

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

And how much new information has come to light since he wrote his books?

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

A fair bit actually, Peter. When Caldwell wrote his 2nd volume there was a lot less known about I. and 7./JG 26's Soviet opponents from their tenure on Russian Front in 1943. Nowadays an update of that info would be possible for most days that the units were in combat. This is an ever-evolving subject.

But the issue Caldwell had with Weal was that Weal had used Caldwell's material without any kind of citation and he gave vent to his feelings on this very forum and thereafter made his opinion of Weal quite known...
Knusel might take that as a "failed attempt at a joke" but Don Caldwell had every right to be angry. After all, he had done the hard yards of finding and interviewing veterans. Hence, whereas Weal's earlier works did not have bibliographies, most of his later works did.

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

Hi Michael,
according to Dénes Bernard, Cantacuzino's 45 (44+1) were all confirmed, same way as were Serbanescu's 44+0; his u/c and probable kills are kept in a separate list.
I hope Dénes can add further detail.

Flavio

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

Hello Flavio,

I have his Mr. Bernad's book at home.
In the evening I can have a look, too.

Here you go:
"Rumanian Aces of World War 2" by Dénes Bernád, p86
-Constantin Cantacuzino: 42+1 confirmed, 11 unconfirmed
-Alexandru Serbanescu: 44 confirmed, 8 unconfirmed

Kind regards,

Michael

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

Hi Michael,

please refer to my previous post, "according to the last researches by Dénes Bernard (French magazine "Avions" 209-210 January/April 2016)".
Dénes wrote "Rumanian Aces of World War 2" in 2003; after that he made further researches and he found two more confirmed victories credited to Cantacuzino (23/7/44 one Yak-9; 21/8/44 three Yaks (instead two), making him the Rumanian top ace.

Flavio

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

Good morning Flavio,

very interesting.
I've already started working through French aviation journals.
Many of them are really excellent.

This website should be updated as well.
http://www.cieldegloire.com/012_cantacuzino_c.php

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Top Bf 109 aces
 

The JG 26 War Diary books were published 20 years ago. A lot of work has been done since, of course on the Russian side with the opening of archives and a lot of works by Russian authors, but also on the Luftwaffe side with for example exploitation of tons of flightbooks.