5 October 1944 - claim for a P_38/F-5 C
 

Gentlemen,

on 6 October 1944 a reconnaissance F-5 C, serial 42 67128, "Dot & Dash", was shot down over the Ijseelmeer, acc. to a private note by an Me 262, which - if this was true - could only have belonged to Kdo. Nowotny that was just in the process of its build-up, the first known claims being filed one day later on 7 October 1944.

Has anybody out there reliable information concerning this claim and is willing to share it with me ? Any help would be gratefully appreciated.

KR

Jochen Prien

Re: 5 October 1944 - claim for a P_38/F-5 C
 

Jochen,
MACR 9254 covers the loss of F-5C-1LO 42-67128. The loss is dated October 6, 1944. Pilot was 2nd Lt Claude C Murray, Jr. He took off at 1253, flying with another F-5 as far as Munster, where they were to split up. Near Arnheim they started to drift apart. About 1410 the other pilot was jumped by an enemy fighter (type not stated or described). After warning Murray, he evaded the fighter, but was unable to contact Murray again. Murray is listed as a POW on Oct 6, released at the end of the war. They were flying at 27,500 feet.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: 5 October 1944 - claim for a P_38/F-5 C
 

Many thanks, Frank !

So the question remains - who or what shot him down ? I know of no German claim for a P-38 / F-5 under this date.

Cheers

Jochen

Re: 5 October 1944 - claim for a P_38/F-5 C
 

Hi Jochen,

On October 6, 1944, Georg-Peter Eder of Kommando Nowotny claimed a P-38 according to the Luftwaffe Victory Claims on the Asisbiz.com site.

regards,

Jim Geens

Re: 5 October 1944 - claim for a P_38/F-5 C
 

Jochen,

This is not my area of study but I have long been interested in the P-38 and Me 262.
The very fine 7th PG history 'EYES OF THE EIGHTH' by Patricia Fussell Keen records the other pilot, Lt. Robert W. Hall, on return stated he (Hall) had been attacked by a "fast twin-engine fighter" and that 'Intelligence' (sic) "confirmed that the plane was a jet-propelled Me 262". Murray at some later time described his experiences at length of being shot down and especially as an evader. Murray indicates he was shot down by 'jets' rather than piston-engine fighters, but in no great detail.

'THE ME 262 COMBAT DIARY' (2nd edition) by John Foreman and S.E. Harvey is somewhat unclear. They state Murray was shot down by a Me 262, possibly Eder, "who is known to have claimed a Lightning early in the month" and "However, another source suggests that it may be a rare kill by I./KG(J)51". In a list of Me 262 pilot claims Eder is shown under 6 October 1944 claiming a Lightning. The same list has him claiming two B-17s on October 4th, but his unit is given as 'Ekdo 262'. Perhaps he was still with the latter unit on October 6th ?
I have no idea of the author's source material for the above, but they certainly researched the subject for many years.

One small correction. The F-5C-1-LO 42-67128 was named 'Dot + Dash' with very elaborate paintwork to go with it. (A photo of this aircraft appears in 'LIGHTNING STRIKES', July 2011 in a piece by Steve Blake describing the history of this very machine).

Regards,

Martin Gleeson.

Re: 5 October 1944 - claim for a P_38/F-5 C
 

Dear Jim, dear Martin,

many thanks for your valuable contributions; I will first try to follow the Eder lead before diving into - at least for me - totally unknown depths of KG(J)/51.

From all we have so far it is clear that Murray was shot down by an a/c, very likely an Me 262, the identity of which remains unclear and all the more so since we have no German claim for this F-5.

Thanks again and

best

Jochen

Re: 5 October 1944 - claim for a P_38/F-5 C
 

Jochen,

Maybe this helps.
7-10-44 Heinrich A. Haeffner. Aus meinem Tagebuch bei der 2./KG 51
Wir hatten heute wieder öfters myo. Oblt.Cziruski und Obfw.Kaiser fliegen einige Einsätze gegen Jäger und Aufklärer.
Bei ihren Angriffen hatten sie oft Ladehemmungen mit ihren 4 MK 108 im Kurvenkampf.
Die Geschosse verklemmten sich durch ihre Schwere in den Gurten!! Die Y-Führung hatte aber gut geklappt.
Oberstleutnant Meister, Kommodore des KG.51, schulte heute Offiziere vom Geschwaderstab auf Me 262.
Uffz.Kroll machte mit der "Anton" bei der Landung einen bösen Bruch.

Jaap

Re: 5 October 1944 - claim for a P_38/F-5 C
 

Jochen,

In support of the above mentioned a page from Jan Horn's Fluhrschaden Geschwader.

Jaap.

Re: 5 October 1944 - claim for a P_38/F-5 C
 

post #7 and #8 are referring to a P-38 kill of Oblt. Georg Czurusky south of Würzburg on 7.10.44. Czurusky led the 1./KG 51, which was still under training at Lechfeld during early October 1944.

This could not be the P-38 shot down over the Ijseelmeer on 6.10.44. This kill could have only been achieved by a pilot from 3./KG 51 based at Rheine-Hopsten or rom Kommando Nowotny based at Rheine.

Re: 5 October 1944 - claim for a P_38/F-5 C
 

To John Manrho:

John,

many thanks for your message which was sent to an old account; please contact me through my current e-mail address: jochen@kjprien.de

Looking forward to Hearing from you.

KR

Jochen

Re: 5 October 1944 - claim for a P_38/F-5 C
 

Looking at the MACR, it gives two positions for the loss of 2/Lt. Murray: "AAF 234" (on the report form) and "somewhere very near Arnheim" (in the witness statement). In that statement, 2/Lt. Hall says "suddenly I was jumped by an enemy fighter about 500 feet distant." No mention of a jet, nor did he see Murray attacked.

He called out over the radio: "… 'Murray, boogies, boogies' but did not have time to say more. I heard him say 'Where?'. In about five minutes I called him again and told him I was going home. He said 'OK'. That was the last I head of him. We were flying at 27,500 ft in clear but slightly hazy weather. The time was approximately 1410 hours."

(Presumably this was British Summer Time, GMT+1).

The II. Jagdkorps report for the day in ULTRA does not include any claim for a Lightning.

Attached is an ULTRA which looks like it is I./KG 51's report for 6 October (number of aircraft operating, bombs dropped on Allied airfields). As corroboration, an Allied report confirms that two Me 262 dropped canisters (=AB containers) in the Nijmegen area. Again, no mention of a Lightning.

Re: 5 October 1944 - claim for a P_38/F-5 C
 

Thank you Nick.

So where does this all leave us ? Fact is that said F-5 C was lost on 6 October 1944, its pilot Murray becoming a POW. It seems quite certain, that both F-5s were attacked by (fighter) aircraft and that the loss of Murray's a/c has to be attributed to aerial combat (even if he hadn't much chance to fight back according to his report). There are hints that the assailant was an Me 262 jet, but there is no hard proof for this.

I have done some digging myself and have come to the conclusion that Kdo. Nowotny can be ruled out as from all I can see this unit saw its first action only the next day, i.e. 7 October 1944. Hptm. Eder in particular did not file a claim on this day, the P-38 that was mentioned earlier on as an "early October claim" was the result of an erronneous reconstruction of an interview he gave many years ago, the correct date of this claim being 18 November 1944. As a matter of fact there is no evidence whatsoever, that a pilot from Kdo. Nowotny filed a claim on 6 October 1944 at all and in particular that this pilot was Hptm. Eder.

The only other jet-equipped unit in the area was 3./KG 51 which was in fact active over the Dutch battleground on this day. However, there is no trace at all of one of its Me 262s being involved in aerial combat, let alone of a shot down P-38/F-5. Heavy flak and fighter opposition encountered over the target area is all that was reported and no mention of one or two lone P-38s flying at 27.500 ft.

No other Luftwaffe piston-engined fighter unit is known to have filed a claim for a P-38 either, so that the issue must remain unsolved for the time being, not the only one by far.

Many thanks again for the time and kind assistance of all who have contributed to this thread. Perhaps some day someone might come up with the solution (usually one or two weeks after the publication of the next volume). I'd be delighted.

KR

Jochen Prien

Re: 5 October 1944 - claim for a P_38/F-5 C
 

Unlikely I know, but could this F-5 loss be a case of 'Friendly Fire' ? A 140 Squadron Mosquito was shot down near Helgoland by USAAF P-51s of the 4th FG this day and claimed as a 'Me 410' ('2nd TACTICAL AIR FORCE', Vol. 2 by Chris Shores and Chris Thomas). I do not have the relevant volume of USAAF fighter claims by Frank Olynyk, but perhaps someone might comment on this.

Regards,

Martin Gleeson.

Re: 5 October 1944 - claim for a P_38/F-5 C
 

Martin,

Victory List no. 5, page 146:
100644 11.00 Me-410
10-20 m. NW of Heligoland Island
2/Lt Ralph E. Lewis 0,5
1/Lt Elmer N. McCall 0,5
335 Ftr. Sq.

Jaap

Re: 5 October 1944 - claim for a P_38/F-5 C
 

Sorry to barge in here, but the P-38/F-5 must have been one of the most easily regognized airplanes on the Western Front.

At the height we are talking about as well, nothing looked like that.
I doubt very much a friendly fire.

It is more likely that the German pilot just maybe never realised he had inflicted any damage to the Lightning. The Me 262 was new and if, on top, the aircraft was from a Bomber Unit, the pilot was probably not very comfortable doing air combat and that might account for no victory claim (s) being filed.

Mistaking a Mosquito with a Me 410 is one thing (I buy that) but mistaking a P-38 with a Lightning, no I can't accept that. Sorry.

Cheers
Stig

Re: 5 October 1944 - claim for a P_38/F-5 C
 

Jaap,

Yes, those were the pilots who shot down the Mosquito. I should have been clearer in my comments as I was really wondering if there were any other claims by USAAF pilots for twin-engine aircraft that day over NW Europe.

Stig,

You are probably correct about the bomber unit, etc. but there were many, many instances of misidentification by aircrew during the war.

Regards,

Martin.

Re: 5 October 1944 - claim for a P_38/F-5 C
 

Agree Martin

Friendly fire was (and is) a nasty business.
Anything is possible, but was ever a P-38/F-5 hit by friendly fire?
I am not talking about AAA-fire but in air-to-air combat.

Best
Stig