Peter Jenne & Rudolf Zwesken
 

Hello,

have Peter Jenne or Rudolf Zwesken scored more Jagdgeschwader 300 kills than Konrad Bauer ?

Michael

Re: Peter Jenne & Rudolf Zwesken
 

Perhaps Rudi Zwesken. You can research it on the WWW.

Rgds,
Kaczmarek

Peter Jenne & Rudolf Zwesken
 

Hi guys

I have Jenne with at least seven victories with JG 300, Zwesken with at least 24 victories with JG 300 and Bauer with at least 31 victories with JG 300. I hope this helps.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Peter Jenne & Rudolf Zwesken
 

...I was wondering if Bauer might be the top JG 300 ace...
I wish someone could reveal the definite score of Jenne who is credited with 12 Viermots in Osprey's "Luftwaffe Viermot Aces".

Michael

Re: Peter Jenne & Rudolf Zwesken
 

If you doubt what is in the book then perhaps it is time for you to do some research of your own. I am sure that many here will be interested to know what you discover.

Re: Peter Jenne & Rudolf Zwesken
 

This claim is some confusion to me , no b-17 crash in this area on this day.
There is a police-report of this area wich claims there were parts found of a plane ,but no crashsite
.- 20.12.43 Oblt. Peter Jenne 1./ZG 26 B-17  Rolde b. Assen: no height 13.25 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.61. 20.12.43


regards harrie

Peter Jenne & Rudolf Zwesken
 

Hi guys

My impression is that the leading ace of JG 300 was Klaus Bretschneider who is listed with a total of 41 claims, four of these as damaged, in JG 300 Wilde Sau by Lorant and Goyat. I hope this helps and any comments or corrections will be appreciated.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Peter Jenne & Rudolf Zwesken
 

Hello Leo,

you may be right. I learned from Johannes the following:
-Bauer total ~38 kills, of these 21 in JG300 +10 unconfirmed
-Bretschneider total 22, all of these in JG300 +18 unconfirmed

Does some kind of official JG300 account exist ?

Have a nice Advent weekend,

Michael

Re: Peter Jenne & Rudolf Zwesken
 

Jagdgeschwader 300," Wilde Sau" a complete History. Volume One June 1943 to September 1944.
Volume two October 1944 to May 1945. Purchased on AMAZON

Re: Peter Jenne & Rudolf Zwesken
 

Knusel,

YES, there are the 2 volumes of "JG 300" by Goyat and Lorant: http://www.amazon.com/300-Wilde-Vol-.../dp/0976103400
I do not remember where I read that, most probably on the book itself, that it took those Historians 25 years of researches and contacts, to finish that work...so a magnificent book, which I fully recommend you.
Yours,
Adriano

Re: Peter Jenne & Rudolf Zwesken
 

...sounds intresting.

Do these volumes pronounce the one an only JG300 top ace ?

Michael

Re: Peter Jenne & Rudolf Zwesken
 

...this website says, it was Bretschneider:
https://asisbiz.com/luftwaffe/jg300.html

Re: Peter Jenne & Rudolf Zwesken
 

Good evening Leo,

damaged ? Do you mean HSS ?

Cheers from Switzerland,

Michael

Re: Peter Jenne & Rudolf Zwesken
 

Hi Michael

Could be Walter Dahl, need to establish with what unit/units he was flying with in 1945, as General of the fighters he claims many "Kills" by simply it would appear turning up at a unit, sometimes it was EJG 2(nine claims) where he flew the Me262, other times his witnesses suggest Stab./JG 300 or JG 301. I am sceptical he states "132" victories in his 1964 book(of which twelve would appear not to have been confirmed) however his 1945 claims come from his Leistungsbuch, which "HE" could simply have made-up between 1945 and 1964. His witnesses were a Leutnant Meyer, Werner Bohnenkamp and Kurt Loos. I have simply listed the unit for them as General der flieger !, there are forty of them, plus twelve the mikrofilms confirm for 1944, so possibly fifty-two.

Otherwise Rudolf Zwesken probably is your man, depends of how successful he was during 1945, but he is rather a vague figure, even his death usually stated as suicide, but he could well have been murdered after his release by U.S soldiers at a bar, and it being covered-up. He may well have made many more than the twenty-one confirmed claims I have for him i.e mikrofilms end 01/01/1945.

Konrad Bauer total thirty-eight (nr18-38 with II./JG 300)many unconfirmed, sixteen with 10./JG 51 and Stab./JG 51, one with 2./JG 3.
Klaus Bretschneider all twenty-two with JG 300 many unconfirmed.
Peter Jenne all we can say is twelve post mid 1942, five with JG 300. Likely more prior to mid 1942.
Kurt Gabler fourteen all with JG 300, plus some unconfirmed.
Ernst-Erich Hirshfeld one with 5./JG 54, seventeen with II./JG 300, quite a few unconfirmed.
Kurt Welter twenty with JG 300 (nr.11-30) but known fraudster.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Peter Jenne & Rudolf Zwesken
 

Good evening dear Johannes,

thanks for your post. Yes, if Walther Dahl's claims after he rose to higher command had been counted towards JG300's total (like Richthofen's claims towards Jasta 11 after he took over command of Jagdgeschwader I), Dahl could certainly be pronounced the top scorer of that unit. That would be suitable because he was its most famous pilot. However, usually the unit designation is usually rather indicated as "General der Jagdflieger".

Do you have the Leistungsbuch page that covers his claims 105-116 ? (If you don't have the scans at all I can send you the pages for 93-104 and 117-130).

I wish you a good start into the weekend, sincerely,
Michael

Re: Peter Jenne & Rudolf Zwesken
 

Hi Michael

Send me a private message with you email address. Pretty sure I have all.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Peter Jenne & Rudolf Zwesken
 

This is a question for Russian loss experts.

Dahl's 1945 Russian claims often have exact crash-site details, is somebody willing to take on the task of matching them to actual losses?

He uses Walter Loos as a witness several times, but it's impossible as Loos wasn't even flying at the time. But Loos was certainly known to him.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Peter Jenne & Rudolf Zwesken
 

Hello Johannes,

so many threads have been ruined by those who press the overclaiming issue into them unquestioned.

But now, when you ask for info about that explicitly, nobody answers.

I wish you a good weekend,

Michael

Re: Peter Jenne & Rudolf Zwesken
 

We can't pretend that overclaiming didn't happen as there are far too many primary and secondary sources that show that it did.
Listings compiled by those who ignore that one basic fact and the fact that the age of taking aces' claims completely and utterly at face value is well and truly past, are only of much real use to those compiling them.

For the 20th February 1945, I have no knowledge of losses that would match his claim. But there are losses that match claims by Josten and Brendel.

For the 21st February 1945 there is at least one IL-2 loss but is probably not applicable to Dahl's claim (it it more likely to have been downed by JG 54 pilots).

Re: Peter Jenne & Rudolf Zwesken
 

Hi Nick

Brendel, Josten along with Günther Schack are the three leading JG 51 aces I have long thought honest, and JG 51 overall better than most large units.
If I list Dahl's 1945 claims would you have a go at matching them. Bear in mind that I suspect they are not even over-claiming, I suspect Dahl just made them up slightly post-war !
I do accept I might be corrected on this, but firstly his witnesses are not flying when he stated them as witnesses, secondly surely as "Head of the fighters" he would be banned from combat. He mentions his huge total in his "rammjäger" book, but his Leistungsbuch might have been faked by somebody else.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Peter Jenne & Rudolf Zwesken
 

Hi Johannes

Politely, I would say Brendel, Schack, Josten AND Hafner.

I believe I posted a listing of Dahl's claims on an earlier thread.
Either way, this is what I have compiled so far:

Walther Dahl

22.6.41/0430
"I-18"
W of Lemberg @ 1500m
23 or 28 IAP. Details pending

8.8.41/1330
DB-3
E of Majewo
11 DBAP? They suffered at least 5 losses, crews of Ml.Lt. A I Pykhtin, Serzhant A Evdokimov, Ml.Lt. P T Krashenninikov, Ml.Lt. Nikolay Ilyich Alimbarashvili and Serzhant N I Mineev all failed to return. Another possibility is 8 DBAP, crew of Lt. Ivan Yakovlevich Korovin which was definitely lost to fighters

24.8.41/0855
"I-180"
S of Zaporozhe
162 IAP? They lost Ml.Lt. Andrey Panteleevich Tsaplagin KIA this date

14.9.41/0605
I-153 "Tchaika"
Jelesawetowka/Mironovka area
44 IAD Staff. This was probably claimed against Leytenant Grigoriy Kotscha. Overclaiming, as he managed to escape (also appears to have been claimed by Gollob)

19.9.41/1357
SB-3
Kotschubjewka
Possibly 316 ORAP. Crew of Ml.Lt. Yaroslav Leonidovich Bratolyubov

Unconfirmed
2.4.42/1530
Hurricane ("Spitfire")
Malta
BV174 of 229 sqn. P/O Andrews returned to base with damage

26.8.42/0830
Yak-7B
NW of Stalingrad @ 800m
(Wilcke and Wessling claimed as well)
Were these claimed against 900 IAP? They lost Lt. Viktor Alekseyevich Saburov KIA

7.9.42/1536
La-5
SW of Achtuba (PQ 49283) @ 2500m
3 GIAP or 27 IAP, 287 IAD, 8 VA. Definitely 3 La-5s lost this date

19.9.42/1144
Yak
1km SE of Kotluban @ 500m
8 VA (1 Yak-7B lost) or 16 VA (6 Yak-1s and 1 Yak-7B lost) or 102 IAD/PVO. 16 VA losses include Pavel Nikolaevich Bulaev of 520 IAP KIA and Ivan Yakovlevich Buldygin of 581 IAP

24.9.42/1103 and 1109
2 x Yak-1s
Stalingrad – Dubovka
8 VA (no known losses) or 16 VA (8 Yak-1s lost) or 102 IAD/PVO. 16 VA's losses include Mikhail Stepanovich Bubnov of 43 IAP, Serzhant Peter Korneevich Sednev of 520 IAP and Ilya Mikhaylovich Yuzhakov (AE CO) of 812 IAP. All KIA

27.9.42/1603
Stalingrad @ 4500m
8 VA (1 IL-2 lost this date) or 16 VA (no known losses this date). 8 VA's loss was 944 ShAP, Serzhant Pavel Vasilyevich Sytov
(Wilcke also claimed, so one must be an overclaim)

14.10.42/0707 and 0715
2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
20-25km NW of Stalingrad
Likely 245 ShAP. Losses include Evgeny Filippovich Baranov POW (liberated in January 1943). 954 ShAP lost Kapitan Arkady Ivanovich Buzev (AE CO) KIA
There were about 5 claims in total

17.10.42/0915
Yak-1
50km NE of Stalingrad @ 2000m
512 IAP. Starshiy Leytenant Ignatiy Biryukov

25.10.42/1039 and 1421
2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
Krasnoarmejsk – Stalingrad
686, 807 and 945 ShAP, 206 ShAD? (definitely in action this day). Losses include MSgt Sudarkin of 945 ShAP, forcelanded 5km S of Prishchevka (already damaged by Flak, finished off by a Bf109). 944 ShAP lost St. Serzhant Nikolay Sergeevich Smirnov KIA

26.10.42/1402, 1407, 1408 and 1412
4 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
Stalingrad – Beketovka
Day's IL-2 losses include 206 ShAD's Sgt. Malyshev KIA over Sarpinskiy Island. 686 ShAP, 807 ShAP, 811 ShAP and 945 ShAP all in action this date. 505 ShAP lost Serzhant Alexei Nikolaevich Sipigin KIA this date 807 ShAP lost Pavel Dmitrievich Shurigin in an alleged taran this date

27.10.42/1000
Yak-1
12km E of Krasnaja Sloboda
Day's losses in the Stalingrad sector include 11 IAP's Vitaliy Vasilievich Serkov KIA. Same unit lost Serzhant Vasily Ivanovich Titov on IL-2 escort mission and definitely to fighters was Nikolay Aleksandrovich Shershilov baled out failed to return

30.11.42/0810 and 0812
2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
Pitomnik – Kotluban
622 ShAP, 214 ShAD, 8 VA definitely in action over Pitomnik in the morning losing 6 planes and 5 crews including Kapitan Dobrokhotov and Serzhant Pyatiletov. 5 more were seriously damaged

15.4.43/1629 and 1630
2 x LaGG-3s
Kuban bridgehead
At least 9 LaGG-3s lost this day. 4 from 267 IAP, 2 from 979 IAP, 2 from 926 IAP and 1 from 269 IAP more specific info is impossible due to large number of claims/losses

29.1.44/1107
B-17 Flying Fortress
Mannheim-Bastogne
Definitely lost to fighters around this time was 42-31486 of 612th BS, 401st BG. 2/Lt. John Tannahill Jr and 7 others KIA, remaining 2 crewmen both POW

24.2.44/1312
2 x B-17 Flying Fortress HSS
One of these was very likely B-17G-25-BO Flying Fortress 42-31666 "Poncho Thalken" of 96th BS, 2nd BG (damaged by fighter, ditched in the sea)

24.2.44/1320
P-38G-5-LO Lightning
30km SE of Steyr @ 5000m
Likely 42-12815 of 95th FS, 82nd FG. George Milton Gearhard baled out near Windischgarten after combat with fighter identified as Fw190

24.4.44/1330
B-17F-115-BO Flying Fortress
Augsburg area @ 6500m
Most likely one of several claims for 42-30730/WW- of 369th BS, 306th BG. 2/Lt. David B Ramsey and crew all POW

24.4.44/1345
P-51B-5-NA Mustang
near Muenchen @ 6500m
This one likely one of several claims for 43-7103/OS-O of 357th FS, 355th FG. 2/Lt. Howard K Hillman KIA

15.8.44/1145
B-17 Flying Fortress
Daun-Kyllberg area (PQ PO to QO) @ 6500m
First one to be attacked was 42-31183/VK-Y "Bad Penny" of 358th BS, 303rd BG. 2/Lt. Arthur L Goss and one other KIA, remaining 7 crewmen all POW
(this appears to be one of at least 6 claims for her)

15.8.44/1146
B-17G-5-BO Flying Fortress
Koblenz area (PQ PP-PO-QO) @ 6500m
Definitely down at 1146 was 42-31224/VK-F "Helen Heaven" 2/Lt. Samuel C Smithy and 4 others POW, remaining 4 crewmen all KIA

13.9.44
B-17 Flying Fortress (rammed)
Believed to be overclaiming, possibly fiction. No known loss by ramming

6.10.44/1205
B-17G-40-VE Flying Fortress
Naunen-Brandenburg (PQ FF-FG-GF) @ 8000m
551st BS, 385th BG. Was this 42-98010/Q of2/Lt. Deloy Taylor and crew all KIA except one man POW. Or possibly 43-38217/P of 2/Lt. Raymond W Tuley and 5 others KIA, 3 POW or 43-38430/N of 1/Lt. Donald J Andreas and 3 others KIA, 5 POW

26.4.45
P-51D Mustang
Near Dilligen
Was this 44-72967 of 354th FG? - Appears to be last Mustang lost in ETO, apparently attributed to Flak


...for any additions, corrections or updates, I would be most grateful.

Re: Peter Jenne & Rudolf Zwesken
 

Hello gentlemen,

At 16:10-16:30 the Germans claimed 9 planes: 5 LaGG-3, 2 Kittyhawk, 1 Yak-1 and 1 Airacobra.

The real losses during this timeframe were:

1. st.lt. M.G. Petrov (Airacobra, 45.IAP): according to his report, he was damaged in air combat, on the way home in the Kholmskaya area was attacked and shot down by a LaGG (friendly fire), baled out, received burns. According to WD of 45.IAP, it was not LaGG but FW190 (as far as I know, there were no claims of II./SchG1 at that timeframe).

2. st.sgt V.A. Bezbabnov (Kittyhawk, 45.IAP too): FTR

3. starshina G.M. Potanin (LaGG-3, 979.IAP): according to his report, was downed by Soviet AAA during his attack on Ju88 in the Abinskaya area, baled out, received a burn.

4. st.lt I.I. Protasov (Yak-1, 6.GIAP VVS ChF): slightly damaged in air combat.

That is all.

I have studied this day, so I know the details. For other episodes, only someone who has studied the respective days in detail on the respective areas can tell about the results.
Obviously, in many cases (maybe most) the answers will be about the same - we can say something about the ratio of claims to actual results, but hardly about the success of a particular pilot.

And this is a very time-consuming task. Unlike the German ones, too many Soviet documents survived the war, although in some cases they are still not enough.

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: Peter Jenne & Rudolf Zwesken
 

Andrey,

May I ask if there were local police reports or newspaper reports from the period.

Best,
Ed West

Re: Peter Jenne & Rudolf Zwesken
 

Hello Ed,

newspaper reports - yes, with photos of distinguished pilots, anti-aircraft gunners, downed German planes, etc. Unfortunately, the quality of newspaper images at that time left much to be desired.

local police [militsia] reports - certainly yes, but I have never worked with them. Firstly, air defense reports are usually sufficient, secondly - I think militsia reports are less accessible and scattered in local archives.

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: Peter Jenne & Rudolf Zwesken
 

Thank you Andrey.

Re: Peter Jenne & Rudolf Zwesken
 

To me it seems that Klaus Bretschneider is the most promising candidate for the JG300 top scorer rank.