Seeking info on P/O Roi Leonard Saunders KIA May 22nd 1940
 

Hello Everyone,

I'm currently doing some research on the crew of 57 Sqn Blenheim L9184, shot down at Haucourt, France on 22nd May 1940. The Pilot was P/O Roi Leonard Saunders; his service number is given as 70602 on the CWGC website, and yet his AIR78 entry (AIR78/140 pge 468) specifies 800420.

References to an 'R L Saunders' can be found in 'Flight' on July 20th 1939 and November 9th 1939, under the RAFVR Admin & Special Duties Branch heading, being promoted first to P/O, the F/O with honorary F/Lt rank.

Can anyone help to clarify when this Officer was commissioned? whether he was RAFVR or not? whether I'm dealing with another officer with the same initials in the 'Flight' entries quoted above? and where the AIR78 number comes from?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Ian

Re: Seeking info on P/O Roi Leonard Saunders KIA May 22nd 1940
 

Different men or possibly the same man but different periods of service.

AIR 78 is an index to service records of Other Ranks/NCO not Warrant/Commissioned Officers.

Other Ranks/NCO had service numbers allocated in a different manner and numeric sequence to those of Warrant/Commissioned Officers.

When an OR/NCO was Commissioned they would be issued with a new personal number in the Commissioned numeric series.

For Gradation dates and Branch/Service for any Commissioned Officer you need the entry from The London Gazette or the repeat in periodic Air Force List or Flight.

Ross

Re: Seeking info on P/O Roi Leonard Saunders KIA May 22nd 1940
 

Pilot Officer on probation Roi Leonard Saunders (70602) is confirmed in his appointment 28 November 1939. Gazetted 9 January 1940.

Other number provided (800420) comes from a block of numbers issued to Auxiliary Air Force members after December 1925.

Dave

Re: Seeking info on P/O Roi Leonard Saunders KIA May 22nd 1940
 

Thanks Ross/Dave,

The name Roi Leonard Saunders is too unusual for there to have been 2 in the service, so I think that the AIR78 entry must be the same person, in which case Roi Saunders must have been in the RAuxAF prior to 1939. As I understand it members of the RAuxAF were civilians who learnt to fly at their own expense, so presumably all such pilots with service numbers in the 800000 to 874806 range would have been recorded on AIR78 cards, as they weren't actually commissioned officers. When the RAuxAF squadrons were incorporated into the RAF at the outbreak of war then each man would have had a new service number allocated (70602 in Roi Saunders' case).

The R.L. Saunders mentioned in Flight in the RAFVR section must have been another individual entirely.

604 squadron RAuxAF flew the Mk1(F) version of the Blenheim, so I guess this might possibly explain how Roi Saunders ended up flying Blenheims with 57 Sqn.

Looks like I need to do some more digging. Thanks for the help guys.

Ian

Re: Seeking info on P/O Roi Leonard Saunders KIA May 22nd 1940
 

First the AAF did not become the RAuxAF until after the war and AAF was not incorporated as it was always a seperate reserve service with special rules. AAF service numbers were retained post Sept 39.

Next the service number 800420 suggests that the AAF OR Saunders was the 420th airman to be enlisted in that service (it records all AAF airmen not just pilots).

Since enlistment in the block commenced in 1925 his entry would have been in the late 1920s

If you look at the age of P/O R L Saunders killed with No.57 Sqn you will see that it is very unlikely that they are the same person.

Instead of guessing the best way to get full details of his service career is to apply to the MoD for a copy of his service record.

This will reveal all without shadow of doubt.

Ross

Re: Seeking info on P/O Roi Leonard Saunders KIA May 22nd 1940
 

Hello Ross,

Yes, I think that you're right.....the only way to be sure is to apply for the MOD records. It just seems so unlikely though to have 2 people in the service with such an unusual name.

Thanks for your insights.

Ian

Re: Seeking info on P/O Roi Leonard Saunders KIA May 22nd 1940
 

Checking Air Force Lists shows that P/O R L Saunders was serving with No.57 Sqn from Nov 1938,

Checking furher back in 1938 he is listed as RAFO (Reserve of Air Force Officers)

So service prior to 1938 as either Commisioned RAF/AAF/RAFVR regular or direct Commisioned entry to RAFO,

Transfer from P/O RAFO to P/O RAFVR and new personal number issued.

Searching futher in The Gazette

He was Commissioned into RAFO 21st Dec 1936
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/...e/171/data.pdf

Confirmed
19th Oct 1937
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/.../8139/data.pdf

Ross

Re: Seeking info on P/O Roi Leonard Saunders KIA May 22nd 1940
 

This was a prewar accident wuth No.57 Dqn

The second page shows wings date and flying hours

http://www.rafaircraftaccidents.com/...9/00801345.JPG
http://www.rafaircraftaccidents.com/...9/00801346.JPG
F1180 Copyright RAF Museum

Ross

Re: Seeking info on P/O Roi Leonard Saunders KIA May 22nd 1940
 

Hello again Ross,

Many thanks for this information, I appreciate you taking the effort.

Regards,

Ian

Re: Seeking info on P/O Roi Leonard Saunders KIA May 22nd 1940
 

Ross I am not sure this is correct. He would be the 420 person enlisted in 600 Squadron

601 Sqn started at 801000

So it could be the same person based on age

800000 800999 RAuxAF UK 600 Squadron
801000 801999 RAuxAF UK 601 Squadron
802000 802999 RAuxAF UK 602 Squadron
803000 803999 RAuxAF UK 603 Squadron
804000 804999 RAuxAF UK 605 Squadron
805000 805999 RAuxAF UK 606 Squadron
806000 806999 RAuxAF UK 606 Squadron
807000 807999 RAuxAF UK 607 Squadron
808000 808999 RAuxAF UK 608 Squadron
809000 809999 RAuxAF UK 609 Squadron
810000 810999 RAuxAF UK 610 Squadron
811000 811999 RAuxAF UK 611 Squadron
812000 812999 RAuxAF UK 500 Squadron
813000 813999 RAuxAF UK 501 Squadron
814000 814999 RAuxAF UK 502 Squadron
815000 815999 RAuxAF UK 504 Squadron
816000 816999 RAuxAF UK 612 Squadron
817000 817999 RAuxAF UK 613 Squadron
818000 818999 RAuxAF UK 614 Squadron
819000 819999 RAuxAF UK 615 Squadron
820000 820999 RAuxAF UK 616 Squadron
821000 879999 RAuxAF UK Balloon squadrons of the AuxAF

I think I got this list from Aces High...

Re: Seeking info on P/O Roi Leonard Saunders KIA May 22nd 1940
 

Hi Paul,

As I progressed with AFL I wondered about this and considered if it was vestiage of paper transfer using a unissued/free service number.

The possible senario was enlistment into AAF, service as either ground or Sgt Pilot then commission.

The F1180 shows date of wings as April 1937 and The Gazette as Commission to RAFO Dec 1936. This negates the possibility of AAF service as Sgt Pilot and age would make any reasonable service time as OR groundcrew before selection for pilot training an outside possibility.

In addition progress to Commission via AAF structure would have a more likely result in AAF appointment rather than Class A in the RAFO.

I did also consider the senario of pre war service in RAF then re-enlistment into AAF as OR but the AIR 78 card lacks the normal Class F marking. AFL also shows continuous service from 1936 to advent of war and posting to No.57 Sqn from Nov 1938.

All a bit contrived to link the 800420 to 70602 but possible that for admin/attestation he attended the local AAF unit at Hendon for short induction while waiting for Commission appointment and course commencement at FTS. If he undertook any prolonged on unit training it would have steered a career towards AAF.

Edit:
More AFL diving brings up posting as APO 16 Jan 1937 to No.8 FTS under instruction.

Ross

Re: Seeking info on P/O Roi Leonard Saunders KIA May 22nd 1940
 

Ross

Thanks - It appears he was from St Albans, Herts area (actually Bricket Wood) so entirely feasible he could have been at 600 Sqn in Hendon especially as it is just a drive down A5 (Watling Road)

Paul

Re: Seeking info on P/O Roi Leonard Saunders KIA May 22nd 1940
 

Hello Paul,

This really is turning into a can of worms isn't it!!

The whole RAF service numbering system is a bit of a minefield. Thanks for coming up with this particular quirk of the system, which as you point out seems to suggest that Roi Saunders was a pre-war AAF flyer with 600 Sqn. This sqn would have been equipped with the Mk1F Blenheim immediately prior to the war, so would explain why P/O Saunders ended up flying Blenheims with 57 sqn.

Many thanks to Ross, Dave and yourself for moving my understanding of this chap forward.

Regards,

Ian Marchant

Re: Seeking info on P/O Roi Leonard Saunders KIA May 22nd 1940
 

Sorry, I hadn't read Ross's last entry before my previous reply. So it's not conclusive that Roi Saunders flew with 600 Sqn prior to his commission in the RAFVR? and his initial service number may just have been an administrative expedient?

If there's an ORB for 600 sqn perhaps that would yield some information.

Regards,

Ian

Re: Seeking info on P/O Roi Leonard Saunders KIA May 22nd 1940
 

Ross/Paul,

I have now had the opportunity to review the 600 Sqn ORB for the period 1925 to late 1939, and can confirm that the name Saunders does not appear in any entries. That being said, there were 14 unnamed civilian OR entrants in January 1935, and so I'm wondering if Roi Saunders could have been one of these. He would have just turned 18 at this point, so the sort of age that you might expect him to be taking such a step.

Would it be possible for him to have served as OR with 600 sqn? perhaps even to have subsequently applied for an AAF commission, been rejected.....and then applied for a reserve commission instead? Looking at the ORB it is clear that 600 Sqn had a high rejection rate, presumably the result of "pre-war gentlemans' club" type thinking. Roi Saunders was from a working class background, so not necessarily the right 'type' for 600 Sqn at that time.

Any further thoughts appreciated.

Ian

Re: Seeking info on P/O Roi Leonard Saunders KIA May 22nd 1940
 

The answer is in his service records - apart from facts from published primary sources all is "typically", "probably", "normally", "usually" etc.

Between the wars (early 30s) there were three main formations that made up the Air Force = Regular, Auxiliary and Reserve.

To prevent the regular force stagnating with long term personnel who were not competent in increasingly technical eqypment and warfare methods a system of short service commissions was used. Most officers served for a period of not more than five years then were obligated to spend a defined number of years on the reserve list. The few who showed an aptitude for higher command were offered permanent commissions and joined the small numbers of Cranwell trained long termers.

The contraction of service after the great war had resulted in a very small regular service, mostly occupied in policing duties in the middle east and a large reserve that by the late 20s lacked current training on newer service types.

All the abpve was mainly concerned with Commissioned Officers, OR ground trades were not considered generally for reserve service of any length, only a few individuals being marked for reserve cadre.

In the mid 1930s the RAF embarked on the various expansion schemes which initially resulted in the regular force being expanded by extending most short service commissions by a few years. As new equipment arrived new direct entry officers were commissioned to man them but aerodrome construction to house the expanded Air Forces was the initial limiter.

The expansion of Regular resulted in a dramtic drop in Class A, B and C entry to the reserve. The Treasury had agreed to a certain size of reserve and rather than keeping on poorly trained men at the end of their reserve comittment the Air Forces sought to bring in direct entrants who had no previous service and train them to the same standard as new entry regulars.

This would eliminate the "5 year" skills gap between regular service and Class B/C reserves.

Both Regular and Auxiliary had associated reserve forces eg Reserve of Air Force Officers = RAFO and Auxiliary Air Force Reserve of Officers = AAFRO.

Still with me?

So in late 1936 Saunders with previous AAF service would have had no real numbers bar to Commission within the AAF or its associated reserve AAFRO. This would be the "normal" and "usual" route to Commission.

As to joining AAF in 1935 although his age by modern standards is adequate it is a bit young for the expansion period who looked for previous mechanical skills for new entry ground crews.

All the evidence points to the fact that Saunders was not a civil trained pilot at entry eg no Royal Aero Club Licence and 3 months normal Flying Training Course after entry before award of wings.

I look to his Commission into the RAFO as significant and a sign that he was "second string" choice for the regular force. Essentially the regular force was "parking" him for the ealy 40s by giving current flying training and a commitment to maintain his service type flying experience for the next 5 years.

My take on the senario is that the local AAF unit is instructed to take him for a few months and give some service induction/basic drill training etc that he would lack with Direct RAFO entry.

The only way the AAF unit could handle the admin is to assign him a service number to track kit/training issue etc.

After flying training at No.8 FTS he continues to appear in Air Force List as RAFO but the "where serving" is denoted by "-" saying although on the reserve list he was not on the resident strength of any regular unit.

It is not until the Expansion scheme about Munich time that he is recalled into resident stregth of No.57 Squadron and his current service type training is strengthened.

As to where currency flying training took place between No.8 FTS and No.57 Sqn the hours on type listed on the 1939 F1180 Accident Card suggest that since only 1/3 of total hours is on Blenheim it was either on units where Blenheim was not the primary type or on secondary types of Bomber Units.

As to class bar, remember that the RAFVR was formed in July 1936 so this usually would have been an easier route into RAF reserve service for him.

Ross

Re: Seeking info on P/O Roi Leonard Saunders KIA May 22nd 1940
 

Ross,

Thanks for that excellent analysis, you've certainly covered all of the scenarios very thoroughly. I think the next step is for me to bite the bullet and stump up for the service record. Let's just hope it includes his service history prior to the 70602 service number being issued.

Thanks once again for taking the time to explain the relevant issues.

Regards,

Ian

Re: Seeking info on P/O Roi Leonard Saunders KIA May 22nd 1940
 

OK, one final update on this thread:

I will be requesting this Officer's service record to hopefully clarify the points already discussed, but in the meantime there are several facts that are now evident, and which I'll document here for those interested.

I have now had the opportunity to read all of the 600 Squadron ORB entries covering 1931 to 1939. This ORB is very precise and comprehensive compared to others that I've examined. Temporary attachments and postings are religiously documented, as are the names of applicants granted commissions. Other Ranks (OR) are another kettle of fish, and their names appear sparingly.....if at all. My findings are:

1) No reference to R.L. Saunders appears anywhere in the 600 Sqn ORB.

2) If, as has been suggested, Roi Saunders was allocated a 600 Sqn service number as some sort of bureaucratic expedient prior to commencement of commissioned aircrew training, then I would expect that number to be a 90000 series number, as befitting an Officer. Several new commissioned entrants to the squadron proper date to this period: J.H.C.Rowe (Jan '35 - 90089), A.McLachlan (Feb '35 - 90085), H.Coghlan (Feb '35 - 90117), C.A.Pritchard (May '36 - 90092)........ALL have 90000 series numbers.

3) 1 reference is made in 1935 to an aircraftsman named Pestell, referring to AIR78 records show his service number to be 800337, relatively close to Roi Saunders' number 800420.

4) All of my reading on 600 Sqn has shown it to be an extremely elitist unit, which recruited almost exclusively from moneyed members of the Banking/Insurance/Finance institutions in the City of London. I doubt that they would have entertained the idea of a temporary secondment by someone of Roi Saunders' background, awaiting commission or otherwise.

Obviously final confirmation will have to await Roi Saunders service records, but my gut feeling based on the above is as follows. I think Roi Saunders may have had some sort of work connection in the City of London, which lead to him joining 600 Sqn AAF as OR in 1935. After serving a year as OR he saw the creation of the RAFVR as a means of achieving an aircrew commission which would have been impossible for him within the AAF. He applies for an RAFVR commission, probably at nearby Hatfield where an E & RFTS has been established, is accepted, but retains his existing AAF service number. He attends No.8 E&RFTS at Montrose, where he is allocated to twins and wins his wings, subsequently attending Hatfield at weekends to keep his hours up to requirement......mostly I would imagine on Tiger Moths (hence the relatively low number of Blenheim hours on the 8th August '39 crash card). Prior to November 1938 whenever his status changes his name would be associated with his old AAF service number, which would be interpreted as indicating membership of the RAFO as opposed to the RAFVR. All of this becomes academic when he is issued with his regular RAF service number in Nov '38

All very speculative I admit, so it will have to await the service record for confirmation.

Regards,

Ian

Re: Seeking info on P/O Roi Leonard Saunders KIA May 22nd 1940
 

Sorry Ian but you are not grasping the differences in numbers.

An Other Rank had a Service Number and a Commissioned Officer a Personal Number.

At any point in time no Commissioned Officer could not retain any issued OR number. Records Section could not do this as per Kings Regulations and Air Council Instructions.

The record cards and reporting/recording methods were completely at odds for any overlap or continuation.

On the day his RAFO Commission was promulgated for being Gazetted his Officer Record Card would have been opened with his RAFO Personal Number in alphabetic order with all other RAFO Commissions on that day. From that point his Personal Number would be retained unless he changed from RAFO to RAF, AAF or RAFVR (pre war admin rules). It was not until late 1930s that Gazette or AFL printed the numbers but they were in use by Records.

If he changed from RAFO there would be a Gazette entry resigning his RAFO state and appointing as X. This would also be recorded in the monthly Air Force List.

For an example of this see Carr-Ellison entry in AAF section resigning his AAF Commission to transfer to RAF on the same page that Saunders RAFO P/O seniority is confirmed.
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/.../8139/data.pdf

At no point did this happen for Saunders so Commissioned into RAFO and remained in RAFO.

The importance of this for both OR and Commissioned was that there were different terms of service between RAF, AAF and RAFVR eg AAF could not legally serve overseas only in UK mainland - one of the reasons for exclusive use of RAFVR intake for Hostilities Only.

Give both numbers and say assumed OR service otherwise Disclosures may not supply Form 543 for any OR service.

The date for No.8 FTS (it was not designated Elementary and Reserve in 1936) was after Gazetted Commission so he attended as an Acting Pilot Officer in the RAFO not AAF or RAFVR.

Application for Commission within a service RAF, AAF or RAFVR was very much considered solely within the service. It was highly unusual for a service to reject a commission appicant and then sucessfully fob him off for some other service to fund while retaining the benefit.

Wings are awarded on completion of FTS course (usually just after solo on single) Im 1936/57/38 Twin conversion was on unit following passing out of FTS.

Ross

Re: Seeking info on P/O Roi Leonard Saunders KIA May 22nd 1940
 

OK Ross, I promise not to raise your blood pressure any further over this thread!!

Did notice that Roi Saunders is listed in the Jan 1939 AFL (page 1282) under Relinquishments and Resignations as having transferred from RAFO to RAF as of November 1938 when he joined 57 Squadron......but as you point out nothing prior to that.

I take on board everything that you're saying, I just find it hard to understand how he could have been commissioned in the RAFO as Class A based on what we know about him.

Thanks for the advice regarding Disclosures, I'll make sure to make reference to the possibility of OR service pre-commission.

Regards,

Ian