August 31,1944 Jg-52 combat w/ 52nd FG questions
 

On August 31,1944 an element of six Bf-109G of II/JG-52 led by Hptm Helmut Lipfert and including Lt. Foennekold attacked the 52nd FG which was attacking an airfield. The Bf-109s shot down 4 P-51s but lost 5 Bf-109s,the only survivor being Hptm Lipfert,who claimed one P-51.

The German dead are listed as:
Uffz Heinz Krah, Ofhr. Nikolaus Schroder, Lt. Hans Otto Junge, Uffz Fritz Zaubitzer, and Lt. Otto Foennekold.

Now the questions arise:
(1) In his book "The War Dairy Of Helmut Lipfert", Helmut Lipfert (Lipfert led a Rotte) , his wingman is identified as "Gefreiter Guenter Staender". There is no Gfr. Guenter Staender in the casualty list.

(2) In the Luftwaffe victory list by Tony Wood,there are two P-51 victories listed, one by Hptm Lipfert at 1020 at location 47 257 @ 400m.
The other P-51 claim is by Uffz Heinrich Koch who claims a P-51 at 1017 at location 47 228 @ 100 m. There is no Fw. Heinrich Koch listed among the casualties on this date.

(3) In the book "Ritterkreuztrager of the Luftwaffe" by Obermaier, Lt. Fonnekold is listed with 3 P51 kills on this date:"Am 31.8.44 gelang es ihm,drei US-Jaeger P-51 Mustangs abzuschiessen." Yet,there is no listing for Lt. Fonnekold in the victory claims list.

Altogether a very confusing combat. Otto Foennekold was killed by a P-51 Mustang while landing.

Speculation is encouraged.
Carlos

Re: August 31,1944 Jg-52 combat w/ 52nd FG questions
 

Last year I published a two-part article on that particular air combat over Szászrégen (Reghin, Sächsiches Regen), Nortern Transylvania (then part of Hungary, today part of Rumania) on August 31, 1944. Unfortunately (for the English language readers), the article was published only in Rumania and Hungary.
One day I will translate it into English (or French) and publish it somewhere in "west", too...

I identified 4 P-51 and 4 Bf 109G + 1 Fw 190F + Ju 52/3m shot down in air combat over that area. A couple of other Luftwaffe and even Rumanian (!) airplanes were also shot down by trigger-happy Mustangs en-route to/from their target.

I don't have info on either Ofhr. Nikolaus Schroder, or Lt. Hans Otto Junge, but I know that Gefr. Günter Stender (6./JG 52)was also killed in combat.

Re: August 31,1944 Jg-52 combat w/ 52nd FG questions
 

Dénes,

Great to hear from you. Yes, it would be nice to read your article in English (or French, I can figure that out),any chance of seeing it soon?

The JG-52 losses I found on the Net. They agreed with the name provided by John Manhro many years ago. Gefr. Günter Stender (6./JG 52) is not mentioned on this list as a casualty.

Carlos

Re: August 31,1944 Jg-52 combat w/ 52nd FG questions
 

Hi All

Checking Bernd Barbas book II./JG 52 he states
1) Six Me 109 took of to intercept a presumed Il-2 attack on their base
From 6.St Lipfert and Ständer took off. From 5.St only Fönnekold is stated as leading a Schwarm (obviously a mixed 6.St and 5.St).

2) THREE ME 109G-6 were lost by the unit that day, all three pilots being killed
a) Uffz Fritz Zaubitzer 5.St
b) Lt Otto Fönnekold 5.St
c) Uffz Heinz Krah 6.St

3) II./JG 52 claimed five victories
a) Uffz Krah (his 9th) 6.St
b) Oblt Helmut Lipfert (his 145th) 6.St
c) Oblt Fönnekold (his 136th-138th) 5.St

Since Barbas is the official biographer of JG 52, something must be wrong here. Either the combat contained MORE fighter units than only II./JG 52 or it had to have more than six fighters taking off from the unit in question. That one fault could creep into a publication such as Barbas is possible, but I find it strange that so many individuals as listed previously should have gone undetected in the official history

Cheers
Stig Jarlevik

Re: August 31,1944 Jg-52 combat w/ 52nd FG questions
 

52nd FG reported 3 losses from this engagement:

Lt. Robert Davis, 2nd Fighter Squadron, KIA
Lt Paul Fraser, 4th Fighter Squadron, POW
Lt. Frank Tomlinson, 2nd Fighter Squadron, POW

Aerial reconnaissance had reported a large concentration of enemy aircraft at Saschsich-Regen airfield. 48 P51s took off to attack these, led by LtCol Boedeker, the Deputy Group Commander.

As the the P51s of the 5th Fighter Squadron approached the airfield, they encountered 3 FW190s in the landing pattern and shot them down (one was later reclassified as a probable). The 2nd Fighter Squadron and 4th Fighter Squadron joined the action; a Do17 was also shot down, along with 5 ME109s.

The bulk of the engagement took place around the Saschsich-Regen airfield being used by II/JG52 and other units. 52nd FG was credited with destroying some 60 aircraft on the ground and claimed 9 aircraft shot down in aerial combat. The unit received the Distinguished Unit Citation for its action.

Re: August 31,1944 Jg-52 combat w/ 52nd FG questions
 

KB

The 52nd FG may actually have suffered 4 casualties in this combat:
The additional casualty was Lt. Carlson, 2nd Squadron.
This is from the "Narrative Mission report Number 86 for 31 August 1944" by the 52nd FG.
Now in the book on the 52nd FG there is a Lt. Roy Carlson of the 2nd FS who was flying missions after August 31. He may have returned later from the mission.

Re: August 31,1944 Jg-52 combat w/ 52nd FG questions
 

thanks-good info.

Re: August 31,1944 Jg-52 combat w/ 52nd FG questions
 

Yes, indeed. Lt. Carlson died in this mission aboard his P-51 serialled QP-X. He crashed approx. 15 miles from the target. No first name is given in the USAAF document.

There was a fifth Mustang lost as well, when it crash landed on Madna airfield, Italy, while returning from the mission. No further details are available.

Re: August 31,1944 Jg-52 combat w/ 52nd FG questions
 

How many of the losses were attributed to flak or aerial combat?

Re: August 31,1944 Jg-52 combat w/ 52nd FG questions
 

Four to enemy fighters and one for technical failure.

Re: August 31,1944 Jg-52 combat w/ 52nd FG questions
 

Does anyone know what Mustangs these were? B,C,D-series?

Dénés, I'd also love to read the article... Maybe someone else can help you with the translation, i.e. someone from D-13th?

Re: August 31,1944 Jg-52 combat w/ 52nd FG questions
 

Two Mustangs are positively identified, whose pilots became POWs.
One was a C (Bu.No. 42-103395), while the other one a D (Bu.No. 44-13295).

My article was published both in Hungarian and Rumanian languages. One day I should publish it in English (or French), too. :)

Re: August 31,1944 Jg-52 combat w/ 52nd FG questions
 

I am seeking information about USAAF pilot John Cobbey mentioned in the article in Hungarian by Dénes Bernád. It is an interesting description with a lot of detail.

http://www.hhrf.org/nepujsag/03aug/3nu0829t.htm

A friend of mine translated it to English, and Google Language Tools also do a crude job of translating most of the content at this URL:

http://web.me.com/weekley/John_Cobbe...on_Rhegin.html

John Cobbey was KIA Sept 2 strafing a German armor column near Pec Yugoslavia (Serbia), but no MACR can be located.

Re: August 31,1944 Jg-52 combat w/ 52nd FG questions
 

What were the Rumanians flying? Pilots go after shape and you can't see national markings from 6 o'clock

Re: August 31,1944 Jg-52 combat w/ 52nd FG questions
 

They were flying Ju 52s.

One does not necessarily need to see the markings on the aircraft. It's enough to know that he is flying deep in friendly territory, so any aircraft spotted in that area is most probably friendly.

Re: August 31,1944 Jg-52 combat w/ 52nd FG questions
 

I wrote that article, with the help of László Márton.

The actual story is much-much longer than included in that local newspaper (published in the city where I was born, Marosvásárhely, Transylvania - actually close to the combat area).
By the way, my Father eye witnessed that particular air combat when he was 15. It was he who triggered my interest in the described event.

The full version of the article, including several comprehensive tables with victories and losses, was published in Hungary and France, too.

P.S. Please give my greetings to Mr. Galántay. And kindly remind him that Mocsár is not the same with Mohács :o

Re: August 31,1944 Jg-52 combat w/ 52nd FG questions
 

Hi Denes,

Can you say where your article was published in France ? I missed it and will be interested to read it.

Seasonal greetings

Laurent

Re: August 31,1944 Jg-52 combat w/ 52nd FG questions
 

It was published in Air Magazine No. 42, No. 6/2008, under the title: Les Mustangs plongent sur Reghin!

Re: August 31,1944 Jg-52 combat w/ 52nd FG questions
 

Thanks Denes I will search this number.

Re: August 31,1944 Jg-52 combat w/ 52nd FG questions
 

Four of the top German aces were present at the fight at Reghin, Hartmann, Lipfert, Rudel, and Fonnekold. I have a theory that Flight Officer Cobbey is likely the Mustang pilot that killed Hauptman (Captain) Otto Fonnekold, a German ME-109 pilot (JG52, 5th squadron leader) with 136 combat victories. Fönnekold has been given credit in several sources for shooting down all three P-51 Mustangs on 31 August 1944. The 52nd FG mission report states that Lt. Davis, Lt Tomlinson and Lt Frazier were shot down by a ME-109, while Cobbey’s wingman Lt. Ward had returned to base early due to fuel problems and Lt. Frazier’s wingman had returned to base early due to mechanical problems. Therefore, in 52nd FG, Cobbey and Frazier did not have assigned wingmen during the fight, and Lt. Schween and Lt. Grey (in 2FS) both lost their wingman to Fönnekold. Lt. Schween claimed one ME109 in a fight at 3,000 ft. after his wingman Tomlinson was shot down. Lt. Grey did not claim any enemy planes destroyed, while Cobbey was given credit for 3, including a ME-109. The Hungarian article by Bernard Denes singles out Cobbey “flying at barely 100 meters destroyed a Bf 109G”. Fonnekold was bounced on his landing approach to his base at Ssaß-Budak Siebenbürgen by a solitary P-51 Mustang. Ssaß-Budak Siebenbürgen base is about 70km west of Reghin, about 10 minutes away in a fighter. One of the .50 caliber projectiles of the Mustang penetrated Fönnekold’s heart. Nevertheless he landed his Bf 109 G-6 (WNr. 441931 "black 9") before succumbing to his injury. By circumstantial evidence, Cobbey was the single Mustang pilot (without a wingman) that claimed a ME-109 at low altitude. He likely saw his squadron member Frazier being shot down by Fonnekold, and then followed him and attacked as Fonnekold was most vulnerable, while landing. Erich Hartmann in 1983 , he told Alex K (HALPRO, 9th & 15th AF /205th GP Rumania Campaigns Historian) that a young and rather very lucky P-51 pilot killed Foennekold on the ground. Hartmann had been told this after the war while visiting Edwards AFB when he acted as Inspector General of the German AF.

Re: August 31,1944 Jg-52 combat w/ 52nd FG questions
 

Carlson had navigation problems on the way back to Italy and ended up landing in Sicily. He returned to Italy the next day after getting fuel.

Re: August 31,1944 Jg-52 combat w/ 52nd FG questions
 

it does ..but this was during the initial strafing of Reghin...Fönnekold was only just getting airborne from Budac when this was happening..

Re: August 31,1944 Jg-52 combat w/ 52nd FG questions
 

Ständer was given shot-down nd unwounded, he was Member if the 6.JG52, location Budak

Rémi

Re: August 31,1944 Jg-52 combat w/ 52nd FG questions
 

Is there any idea on which of these P-51's of the 52th FG that Helmut Lipfert might have shot down?

Re: August 31,1944 Jg-52 combat w/ 52nd FG questions
 

NO WAY !

Lt Carlson ditched the aircraft somewhere over Yugoslavia due to engine malfunction
and was returned in due course back to Bari.

Re: August 31,1944 Jg-52 combat w/ 52nd FG questions
 

Cobbey

I have a question regarding 2nd Lt.Cobbey (F/O) who by is confirmed as the one who killed at point blank Lt.Fonennkold at Reghin , it seems from my various documents that few days later while
attacking German armoured vehic.in Bulgaria when shot down ,after bailing out was executed by SS troops......can you confirm ?

Re: August 31,1944 Jg-52 combat w/ 52nd FG questions
 

An other thing which I couldn't determine on my research, was based on
which accountings the 52nd determined the number of planes destroyed on
ground were 60 plus (from Spits & Yellow Tails Mustangs ) when in fact Rudel
who was on the ground mentioned 50 on his memoirs ?

Also whose P-51 was this with the noseart "Hazel" ?

Re: August 31,1944 Jg-52 combat w/ 52nd FG questions
 

Are there any reliable infos on the coordinates of the route which took 52nd from Madna to Reghin ?

Re: August 31,1944 Jg-52 combat w/ 52nd FG questions
 

Cobbey was a Flight Officer (Warrant Officer). He was KIA strafing an armored column in Serbia following a bombing escort to Nis on Sept 2 1944. There is no MACR for his crash and death. Based on his wingman's letter to the family, Cobbey crashed inverted at high speed from 100 feet. The German SS was definitely in Serbia conducting genocide while withdrawing in the face of the Russian advance.

Re: August 31,1944 Jg-52 combat w/ 52nd FG questions
 

Regarding this subject , I continue to research F/O John E Cobbey fate from 52nd FG 4th Sqd shot down KIA on 9/2/1944 near Nish. The 52nd FG history book don't have any details about him nor on the event regarding his downing . No MACR was located and NARA had no info. Any details will be appreciated .On the same history book , Cobbey is not mentioned in any context nor anything about a victory dated 8/31/44 or his loss a few days later. According his relative also on this site John joined 52nd FG on July 27, 1944 flew 13 missions with 4th FS, 52nd FG, from Madna, escorting bombers over France, Yugoslavia, Romania, and Hungary. He participated in the fighter sweep of Reghin Transylvania (Hungary/Romania) on August 31, 1944 when the 52nd FG was recognized for a ‘Distinguished Unit Citation’ by Gen.Strother and Twining,

Re: August 31,1944 Jg-52 combat w/ 52nd FG questions
 

This thread is getting a little mixed as to subject. I propose to split and move parts of it to the Allied. Any comments?

Re: August 31,1944 Jg-52 combat w/ 52nd FG questions
 

as far as I am concerned I am OK