He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

Hello,

I am looking for the airmen’s names of a bomber belonging to KGr. 100 from Vannes-Meucon which made an emergency landing on the south coast of Brittany, near Benodet on 14 August 1940.

Best regards,
Frederic

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

This has been asked before-search Lochbrunner & you will see what has been written

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

Bonjour and merci Chris,

OK, at the reading of the different answers I assume that it was the bomber of Lt Lochbrunner. Nothing about the other men which composed the crew? In addition, on the excellent website "ghost bombers"we have this entry - He 111 WkNr. 5252, 6N+CA - but I don't see that in the answers.

Best regards,
Frederic

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

Thank you for the link Nick.

Here is a poor picture of this bomber on the Kerler beach (Mousterlin, France). The marsh (or rather a lagoon) is on the right, behind the sand dunes bar.

Best regards,
Frederic

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

Frederic,

We carry this incident in the EoE LW Loss DB as:

"14 August 1940: 1./KGr.100 Heinkel He111H-3 (5252). Belly-landed on beach at Hourtin, north-west of Bordeaux, on return from night attack on Dunlop Works at Birmingham, cause not stated. Crew unhurt. Aircraft 6N+CH 100% write-off. (Source is listed as Ultra)

As you can see, our loss entry for 6N+CH does not provide any crew info.

I note that Nick Beale's report for that night indicates the code for this a/c is 6N+CA, which would be a Geschwaderstab a/c. I don't think that KGr100 had a Geschwaderstab at that time, but it would have had a Gruppenstab, likely making the code 6N+CB.

In our EoE photo DB I have an image of a 6N+C_ undergoing salvage on a beach, presumably the 14 August incident. It shows the full starboard fuselage with the tail and wings removed, and standing on its wheels. The "C" does not look white, but could be blue or medium green. This needs further research to determine the correct coding for this a/c: 6N+CA, 6N+CB or 6N+CH. If it turns out to be coded 6N+CB, it probably wasn't a 1 Staffel a/c. I have several other photos showing beach-landed He111s of KGr100 but they appear to mostly show 6N+NH in an incident to which I've not yet put a date, but probably in August 1940. Roba's new book on KG100 probably covers this, but I don't yet have a copy.

I'd like to get these properly identified so I hope others have photos and info that will resolve these issues.

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

Hi Larry,

A friend of mine which has Roba's book told me there was a picture of a bomber shown on a beach which looks like the picture I have put on the forum. To form my own opinion, he has planned to send me a copy of the page because I haven’t yet purchased this book. I have planned to meet a witness near Mousterlin in the next days and I hope he will have more details on that incident. So, stay tuned...

Best regards,
Frederic

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

Saying the source is ULTRA doesn't narrow it down much! I attach my source for 6N+CA (ULTRA CX/JQ/226, para. 39). It is of course conceivable that this code, as transmitted by the Germans, was erroneous. If we postulate that text to be enciphered was handwritten on a message slip, then A or H could readily be confused with one another. Equally, if the message were dictated, the German "Ah" and "Ha" are not that dissimilar.

It's a good book but Roba's loss listing won't help you: he simply refers to an He 111 H-1 damaged 40% in a landing near Quimper on 13 August.

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

Henofred,

Here is the photo I have of what I think is your a/c:

https://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-g7...-g7nSZtK-S.jpg

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

Cannot be the Hourtin crash as this aircraft was pointed out to sea & later photos show it as being broken up by the sea

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

Chris,

I also have several photos of the a beach-landed He111 from KGr100 being broken up by the sea on the beach, and partially buried in sand. I think that there were up to three KGr100 He11s that made beach FL during 1940: 6N+NH, 6N+C? and possible a third one that would account for the one broken up. The broken up one doesn't appear to be 6N+NH; the props aren't bent right.

Would like to get all of these resolved and properly IDed. Tomorrow I'll post photos of 6N+NH.

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

Hello Larry,

According to a testimony, the aircraft was disassembled on the spot and then towed to a loading dock nearby (Mousterlin). This picture seems to show something like that. Preparations for this towing?

Frederic

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

Thanks to all of this, I can confirm the following:

I have 6 photos the ac at Hourtin. It carries the letter 'D' on the tail and has been broken up by the waves.

I can now identify a photo I have of what must be 6N+NH at Kerler-N on the tail, white N on the leading edges, white spinner tips and KGr 100 badge on nose. Props unbent unlike the one at Hourtin

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

CX/JQ/239
2. Late on 19/8 (H)41 sent out its usual report on reconnaissance …
A He 111 crashed 6 km. SE of Les Sables d’Olonne, 200 metres from the beach, and was burnt out. Its markings were 6 + ND [sic], the “D” being painted yellow.

CX/JQ/241
Corrections
Reference CX/JQ/239, paragraph 2, sub-section 3: Source believes that the markings of the He 111 were wrongly quoted in the original document and should be 6N+ND.

Possible match but bear in mind that Les Sables d'Olonne are a very long way from Hourtin.

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

Having checked further, the only reference to a +CH comes from the diary of Ofw Paul Wierbitzki's (2 Staffel) Beobachter who says that this ac became lost and landed on a beach 13-14 Aug 40. He also mentions Uffz Friedel Dörner from 2 Staffel who baled out of Fw Kaufmann's ac; two other crew were Lt Paul Seebauer and Fw Adalbert Knier.

This is my photo; comments welcome

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

...and in response to Nick's posting, here is 'D'. No signs of being burnt out and the reverse of one photo says: Strand bei Hourtin

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

Doesn't look all that well though!

Thanks for the photo and information, Chris. Clearly not "my" machine.

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

....you should see the other photos; well broken up. What is also confusing is some say the crash-landings were 13-14 Aug (which would match with the BF baling out over UK) and then 14-15 Aug (which matches with the QMG's Returns saying 15 Aug 40). Wakefield says no missions 14-15 Aug whilst ULTRA says yes. Luftwaffe Situation Report confirms attacks on Morris Works at Castle Bromwich on 14-15 Aug, nothing 15-16 Aug and then a series of attacks 15-16 Aug which included Austin Works (Birmingham), Filton, Wolseley Works (Birmingham). II/KG 27 was involved in the Filton attack

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

Chris,

Here are the main images I have on the beach FL for 6N+NP, the first very similar to the one that you posted above; the other two show details:

https://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-BQ...-BQb2d7n-S.jpg

https://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-3c...-3cQMXvP-S.jpg

https://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-hT...-hTBB3b2-S.jpg

Here are two of the photos that I have of 6N+DH, which supplement your view of the wreckage of that a/c posted above.

https://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-VM...-VMvSXGj-S.jpg

https://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-Tz...-TzNnsJP-S.jpg

Here are our EoE LW Loss DB reports for possible related losses on 14.8.40:

1) "14 August 1940: 1./KGr.100 Heinkel He111H-3 (5252). Belly-landed on beach at Hourtin, north-west of Bordeaux, on return from night attack on Dunlop Works at Birmingham, cause not stated. Crew unhurt. Aircraft 6N+CH 100% write-off. (Ultra)"

2) "14 August 1940: 3./KGr.100 Heinkel He111H-1. Crashed and burned out 6 km south-east of Olonne-sur-Mer on return from night attack on Dunlop Works at Birmingham. Lt [Oswald] Lochbrunner and three NCOs believed unhurt. Aircraft 6N+DL 100% write-off. (Ultra)"

You've indicated that one of the photos of the wreck of 6N+DH had "Strand bei Hourtin" written on the back, which would appear to be #1, which we ID above as 6N+CH. That appears to be wrong. Shouldn't that be 6N+DH? Doesn't get us anywhere with the Ultra report of 6N+CA or the other two a/c for which I've posted photos in this thread. I was hoping that J-L Roba's new book would clear these issues up, but from the earlier comments here, it doesn't. Can't lay my hands on my copy of Balke's 1970s KG100 book at the moment, so I don't know if that helps.

Still some way to go on reconciling the photos with the LW QM reports and the Ultra info.

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

Although the orientation of my photo of 6N+CH is different, it appears to be the same aircraft. No other photos on the beach at Hourtin show the aircraft letter although one indistinct photo shows the port engine broken off with what appears to be a white spinner. I am not sure where the assumption that Lochbrunner was 3 Staffel came from-when shot down over Norway and then when he was killed in 1941, he was still 1 Staffel. I am afraid that Balke adds little more-no listing for Wk Nr 5252

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

6N+NP, which date pls ??? Probably considerably later no ??

Rémi

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

RT,

I don't know the date for 6N+NP. That's one of the things we're trying to determine. It doesn't have a "Blitz" camouflage scheme (black areas) so presumably it's from the July-September, 1940 period. That's yet to be proven, however.

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

P would indicate II Gruppe which did not exist in KGr 100 until the following year

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

Chris,

My mistake, I think that it is 6N+NH.

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

Hello,

Here is the picture in Roba's book...

Caption: An He 111 "Wiking" lying on a beach probably near Vannes. However, we are not able to date this incident.

The camera angle shows the coast in the background, which is possible if the picture is taken on the beach near Mousterlin.
Best regards,
Frederic

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

Frederic,

Thanx for posting this. It look like the same a/c I earlier posted with the "C." Based upon what I can see of the code, I think that this is 6N+CB of the Gruppenstab. The 4th letter looks far more like a "B" than the "A" as reported in the "Ultra" intercept concerning a 6N+CA on 14 August 1940. If it is 6N+CB, the color of the letter "C" would be medium green, which is consistent with the appearance of both photos. This FL may not relate to the Ultra intercept, but the crash of 6N+DH doesn't fit either. I think now we're looking for info on 6N+DH, 6N+NH and 6N+CB, all probably during the BoB. None of these have black camouflage overpainting consistent with "The Blitz." The problem is we have only one known beach landing (on 14.08.40) for the unit, and the reported coding in the Ultra intercept doesn't match any of them.

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

Sorry Larry, there are multiple references to 6N+CA between August and November 1940, 6N+AA and 6N+BA too, so it rather looks like the Stab used 6N+_A, rules or no rules.

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

Nick,

Point taken. This wouldn't be the first time that LW markings didn't conform to the norm. Thanx for noting this. So the plane on the beach could well be 6N+CA down on 14 August 1940. The dark area where the "A" is could be an overpaint area for a previous letter that has been painted out, a frequent occurrence. If this is 6N+CA and it FL on the beach on 14.08.40, there is another problem in that Chris has a photo of the beach wreckage of 6N+DH that has a handwritten caption for the location of "Hourtin," which is the same area where 6N+CA is supposed to have FL. Could two KGr100 He111Hs FL on the beach in the same area--seems quite unlikely.

At least we're moving forward here. See my new post about another unidentified probable 6N+DH He111 crash that has stumped me for years.

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

Bear in mind that (AFAIK) that KGr. 100 lost only one aircraft on the night of 13/14 August and this was 6N+CA. It was reported by a signals unit that an He 111 had made a forced landing between Bénodet and Pointe de Mousterlin. Since its radio equipment was removed and taken to Vannes, this was pretty certainly the KGr. 100 machine. Check a map and you'll see that the stated location is nowhere near Hourtin or Bordeaux.

However, on 15/16 August there were multiple losses, one of which (an H-3) crashed "near Bordeaux" (or "south of Bordeaux" in another report) without harm to the crew but neither its markings or Werk Nummer were stated. This location is reasonably consistent with Hourtin (on the coast NW of Bordeaux).

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

Nick,

Thanx for your comments. According to the EoE LW Loss reports, we have this listing for 13 August:

"13 August 1940: Stab KGr.100 Heinkel He111H-1. Forced-landed at Quimper during operational sortie, cause not stated. Crew unhurt. Aircraft 40% damaged but repairable."

I note that Quimper on my "google maps" is only about 10 - 15 kms N of Bénodet. This could well equate to the 6N+CA incident.

The beach crash of 6N+DH, which broke in two and clearly wasn't repairable, could be the reported Hourtin crash on the 14th. Hourtin and Bordeaux are at least in the same general area of France, about 50 km apart, with Hourtin being as you say, NW of Bordeaux and close to the coast. I have no idea what a KGr100 a/c would have been doing in the Bourdeaux area, well away from targets in England. That puppy must have been really lost.

"14 August 1940: 1./KGr.100 Heinkel He111H-3 (5252). Belly-landed on beach at Hourtin, north-west of Bordeaux, on return from night attack on Dunlop Works at Birmingham, cause not stated. Crew unhurt. Aircraft 6N+CH 100% write-off. (Source is listed as Ultra)"

I think it likely that our EoE listing of the Hourtin incident as 6N+CH results in confusion between these two incidents.

If we can make these two fit the reported losses, this could account for the beach landings/crashes of 6N+CA between Bénodet and Pointe de Mousterlin, and 6N+DH, near Hourtin, leaving only the separate incident of 6N+NH to settle. This was almost certainly a entirely separate forced landing on a date not related to the activity on 13-14 August.

In another TOCH post, it looks like I've been able to locate another outstanding KGr100 crash, a 6N+DL, in France in late December of 1940, leaving the photos of 6N+NH the only photographed KGr100 He111 incident that I have during the 1939-40 period left to resolve.

I need to run this all by Peter Cornwell, but it looks like we've made significant progress here.

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

I need to run this all by Peter Cornwell, but it looks like we've made significant progress here.

A starting point for progress has to be the documented losses on KGr. 100's first operations from France. On 13/14 August - the first operational night - the Gruppe reported just one aircraft lost, that which force landed at Pointe de Mousterlin. Neither Wakefield nor Ultra mention a second casualty.

The next operation took place on the 15/16th: one Heinkel was missing, one force landed near Dinard (north coast of Brittany), a third force landed near Bordeaux. KGr. 100 requested replacements for all three.

You're quite right that anyone coming down near Bordeaux was probably lost, having overshot their own base by almost 300 km. An aircraft returning damaged from a raid over England would be far more likely to set down on the northern coast of France, the nearest landfall.

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

You're quite right that anyone coming down near Bordeaux was probably lost, having overshot their own base by almost 300 km. An aircraft returning damaged from a raid over England would be far more likely to set down on the northern coast of France, the nearest landfall.


nOTHING TO SAY THAT kgR.100 was crack unit ....

Rémi

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

Reading thugh this thead, it appears to me LH is lacking most of the primary data and relying on other to solve the issue. Questionable process to my eyes. As old editor, I would send the manuscript back.

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

Everything I've contributed to this thread has been available on my website for more than four years, except for a message serial number.

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

Hello,

Regarding the mysterious FL 6N+NH FL on what is thought to be a French beach, originally, I wondered if this could be the following 3./KGr100 a/c:

According to the Revised EoE lW Loss Listing:
'"19 August 1940: 3./KGr.100 Heinkel He111H-2. Forced-landed near Les Sables due to petrol failure on return from sortie to Derby. BO Lt Alfred Kunz badly injured - admitted to hospital in La Roche, rest of crew unhurt. Aircraft 60% damaged but repairable."

However, Nick Beale's KGr100 web post entry for that day suggests that this a/c was probably coded 6N+DL. It was reported by a recon a/c as lying "6km. SE of Les Sables d'Olonee, 200 meters from the beach." and "burnt out." This can't be 6N+NH as it is clearly on a beach and was fully intact when photographed. Does anyone have photos of a 6N+DL burned out at Les Sables? I don't know how a 60% damaged a/c is consistent with being burned out so we might have to adjust the EoE Loss Listing here.

There are two much more viable candidates for 6N+NH during August 1940; another loss on 19 August, listed in our DB only as:

"19 August 1940: KGr.100 Heinkel He111H-2. Crashed at Crozon due to engine failure following sortie to Derby, cause not stated. No crew casualties. Aircraft 100% write-off."

Crozon is in Brittany on a peninsula, so it has a lot of surrounding beaches. The lack of any casualties indicates either a FL or a crew bail out. There is no staffel listed. The problem I have with this one is that the background beaches in my FL photos do not show a very rugged coastline backdrop, which is visible in some of the photos of Crozon on the internet. Otherwise, this might make an excellent candidate for 6N+NH.

The other candidate for 6N+NH that I see is this listing, with no Staffel identified, on 18 August 1940. There is no info on Nick's website for either of these two:

"18 August 1940: KGr.100 Heinkel He111H. Crash-landed at Dinard due to mechanical failure following sortie to attack Castle Bromwich. No crew casualties. Aircraft 100% write-off."

Dinard is also a coastal town in Brittany with fine beaches. The lack of crew casualties and indications of a crash-landing make a beach landing a distinct possibility. Even if the a/c was eventually salvaged, it could well have been initially listed in both these entries as a 100% write off.

Any further information or thoughts?

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

Hello,

I have a further problem with another 1./KGr100 He111H wreck. Two photos of it badly crashed in a planted farm field show the fuselage code as 6N+HH. It also has the W.Nr.3234 on the rudder. I believe that the location was marked as at Nantes, which could be the original crash site, or a salvage dump to which the wreckage was removed.

We presently have in the EoE DB this entry for 19 August:

"19 August 1940: 1./KGr.100 Heinkel He111H-3. Crash-landed at Vertou, 20 km east of Nantes, due to petrol failure on return from night sortie to Derby. FF Lt Albrecht Zetzsche injured, HB Uffz Otto Bollmann badly injured - both admitted to hospital in Nantes, BF Uffz [ ] Friedrich and BM Fw Heinz Bitter both slightly injured. Aircraft 6N+AH 80% damaged - write-off."

I'm wondering if this could be a coding error for 6N+HH? Nick's website entry for 19 August doesn't cover this loss.

Does anyone have any information that would help resolve this?

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

Nick,

You are right, some of the problems with dates has been that when the original loss files were compiled for overnight missions, this was done before your ULTRA DB was published. I'm quite clear now that our 13 August entry for Quimper should be the early hours of 14 August, and our 14 August loss dates should be the early hours of 16 August. These would adjust the loss dates for 6N+CA and 6N+DH. Peter C. is now in the process of combing your website for proper updates to all of our listings. He hadn't updated them for ULTRA information for quite some time.

Thanx for making all this info available on your excellent website.

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

19 August 1940: 1./KGr.100 Heinkel He111H-3. Crash-landed at Vertou, 20 km east of Nantes, due to petrol failure on return from night sortie to Derby. FF Lt Albrecht Zetzsche injured, HB Uffz Otto Bollmann badly injured - both admitted to hospital in Nantes, BF Uffz [ ] Friedrich and BM Fw Heinz Bitter both slightly injured. Aircraft 6N+AH 80% damaged - write-off."

Just to add that it rammed teleph.pole probably wing went out..

Rémi

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

"19 August 1940: 1./KGr.100 Heinkel He111H-3. Crash-landed at Vertou, 20 km east of Nantes, due to petrol failure on return from night sortie to Derby. FF Lt Albrecht Zetzsche injured, HB Uffz Otto Bollmann badly injured - both admitted to hospital in Nantes, BF Uffz [ ] Friedrich and BM Fw Heinz Bitter both slightly injured. Aircraft 6N+AH 80% damaged - write-off."

Or yet another variation here: http://www.absa3945.com/Pertes%20Bre...tlantique.html

Re: He 111 from KGr. 100 - 14 August 1940
 

This code is also quoted in Jean-Louis Roba's KG100 book as 6N+KH.
To further muddy the waters!

Best regs,
Steve.