Hans Philipp 1943
 

As of late I have started noticing a pattern involving Hptm. Hans Philipp of Stab I/JG 54 and Uffz. Hans-Günther Reinhardt of 3./JG 54 in their claiming for 1943. Can anyone advise anything on their describing their "Kills"? There was a wartime book that alledgedly was written by Hans Philipp but I have never seen any of the contents from it.

Re: Hans Philipp 1943
 

Do you have any further information on the Philipp book? Title, publisher, publication date, page count? I would like to put it on my list of ace bios to look for.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: Hans Philipp 1943
 

Hi Guys

Reinhardt was Philipp's wingman who followed him to JG 1, and they were both shot down on the same day, Philipp killed. Not sure they were the most honest of claimers........rather liker the Rudorffer/Tangermann partnership.

Regards

Johannes

Re: Hans Philipp 1943
 

Frank, I posted the name of the book before, its one of Goebbels publications during the war which listed Philipp's as the author. The book was "Philipp - Der Jagdflieger Hans Philipp sein Leben seine Erfolge 1943". I also saw that there was an article in a German wartime paper "Der Adler" 20 Apr 1943. I found this also but have little info on this book so it might be just a "picture" book, Ritterkreuzträger Profile 11: Hans Philipp.

Johannes it seems that your right. So far I can't say that he is not an ace but is no were as good as his PR info. The western front put them in the real world from what I found so far.

Re: Hans Philipp 1943
 

Nokose,
Thanks for the title and information on the wartime publication of Der Jagdflieger Hans Philipp . I have added it to my never ending list of biographies to look for.

The other book you mention, Ritterkreuzträger Profile 11: Hans Philipp is part of a series, now up to #15 on individual Ritterkreuzträgern; not all Luftwaffe. They are 48 pages long. Heavy on the photographs, but still with a decent amount of text. Usually with a victory list. A few color profiles. The price of the early ones is 11.20 Euros, then 11.50, and now 11.80 for the latest ones. In German.

Schiffer has been collecting them together, four issues per volume, in English, as Knight's Cross Profiles.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: Hans Philipp 1943
 

I would put Philipp in the opportunist category. He would be a perfect example of being able to make fraudulent claims i.e high ranking within a staff Staffel in Russia. In Russia most claims were made over enemy territory, in the West the majority would be over German held territory, and the Luftwaffe would investigate the crash-sites, so not so much opportunity to have fraudulent claims invisible, unless over water, and even then it would only be certain units i.e JG 2. I suspect that Philipp's claims in the west both pre Russia and 1943 were honest. Strange thing is I believe he was a popular pilot.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Hans Philipp 1943
 

Johannes,

You suspect his claims prior to Russia were honest? Well kind of, but not brilliantly...

5.9.39/1415 PZL P.11 (claimed as "PZL P.24"), 7km S of Radomsko. Report said that the pilot was seen to jump without a shot being fired. Not confirmed by Polish records, however.

18.5.40/1625, Curtiss Hawk, W of Rethel No. 189 of GC 3/4, Capt. R Guieu forcelanded safely and No. 89 of GC II/4, Adj Paulhan safe, aircraft only damaged (overclaiming, there were at least 5 claims for these two aircraft...)

3.6.40/1520-1525 2 x Hurricanes claimed as Curtiss Hawks, W of Epernay, 73 sqn. Severe overclaiming, only one loss: Serial unknown of P/O I D Hawken KIA (...against 5 German claims)


7 or 8.6.40/2050 Spitfire S of Dieppe @ 4000m, Your guess is as good as mine... I need to confirm the true correct date.

30.8.40 Unconfirmed Hurricane (benefit of the doubt....)

1.9.40 Unconfirmed Hurricane (benefit of the doubt...)

5.9.40/1620 Spitfire over Thames Estuary @ 6000m, Possibly 41 sqn or 602 sqn. 41 sqn lost R6885 of F/O A D J Lovell baled out safely and N3162 of P/O Eric S Lock WIA. 602 lost Serial unknown, pilot unknown damaged over Beachy Head at this time plus K9955 of pilot unknown (at least 4 claims that match these losses. So again, likely an overclaim)

27.9.40/1020 Hurricane W of London. Could this have been one of 303 sqn's losses over Horsham at 0930 British Time? He claimed 2 others victories this date, the timings are not known

13.10.40/1340-1402-1403, 3 x Hurricanes, Dungeness - Tunbridge Wells area. One source at least has said these were Spitfires of 66 sqn, but the time of their losses does not match. Was this actually serial unknown of 46 sqn? Sgt. L H B Pearce forcelanded at Biggin Hill following combat with Bf109s over Dungeness

20.10.40/1105, 2 Hurricanes, 605 sqn. 2 aircraft damaged: V6844 of P/O P D Thompson and V6755 of P/O J H Rothwell, both pilots unhurt (Hrabak claimed a third over Ashford, which makes the whole 3 claims into overclaiming somewhat)

30.10.40/1702, Spitfire over Dungeness, 602 "City of Glasgow" sqn. 2 complete losses. Sgt. W B Smith WIA in X4542 and P/O D H Gage in X4269, plus P/O A McL Lyall's P9515 damaged (versus 3 claims in total by the Germans in this engagement - a fair match)

2.11.40 Spitfire NW of Dungeness, Likely overclaiming, as day's only casualty was L1842 of 310 sqn, Sgt. J Kominek baled out after machine caught fire over Sheppey, Kent. Attributed to return fire from a bordschuetze in a larger aircraft.

11.11.40/1230, Hurricane over Canterbury. 229 sqn. Two Hurricanes only damaged, both pilots safe

So as you can see, not an outright liar. But not brilliantly spot on either.

Sources: Tony Wood lists plus Peter Cornwell's books on the Battles of France and Britain, then and now plus the Norman Franks' Fighter Command Losses relevant volume.

Re: Hans Philipp 1943
 

Hi Guys

An in depth scrutiny. I would certainly say that certain units seemed lax in there confirmation, JG 54 being one, though often it is restricted to certain Gruppe or even Staffel. JG 2 was the worst in the west, JG 5 the worst in the east. JG 26,27,53,77 and most of JG 52 and 51 were the honest guys generally. Yet even within JG 2 there were honest claimers!

Kind Regards

Johannes

Hans Philipp 1943
 

Hi,

to complete Hans Philipp's claims in the West plus Balkan

7.4.41 2 Bf109. II/JG54 claimed 5 Bf109 and 1 Hurricane in a combat with 32. Grupa at around 18,00 over Prnjavor. Yugoslavian losses were 6 Bf109 shot down and 2 severely damaged, even with some claims by ZG26 the accuracy is pretty well.

2.5.43 1 Spitfire. JG1 clashed with 331. and 332. Sqn 7 claims for 4 Spit IX shot down.

16.5.43 1 thunderbolt. 2 claimed by JG1 and at least one more by Priller of JG26. 78FG lost 1 P-47

8.10.43 1 B-17 very big combat with many claims and losses

regards

Re: Hans Philipp 1943
 

With regards to his 8.10.43 B-17 claim, the Joe Baugher US aircraft serials website says he downed B-17G-10-DL Flying Fortess 42-37752/QJ-A of 339th BS, 96th BG. 2/Lt. Paul A Flashive and crew all POW. Claimed over Diepholz-Quackenbrueck (PQ FR-5.2) @ 6600m (crashed at Lohne)


(...but I have to stress that is a source I often find myself disagreeing with, when it comes to which German pilot shot down a particular aircraft ...)

Re: Hans Philipp 1943
 

I have two more claims for P-47 in the same area and time:

Ofw. Johann Edmann 8./JG 26 13:15
Fw. Walter Gruenlinger Stab/JG 26 13:15-16

So, we have 5 claims against 1 actual loss.

Re: Hans Philipp 1943
 

There was one more loss on 16 May 43 but not of a P-47. F-5A-3-LO #42-12769 from 13 PS flown by 2nd Lt. Telford S. Byington (POW) on a recon. to Paris. Details of loss unknown but thought to be by flak. Last contact at 12:15 hrs. The cause being from flak doesn't always "ring" true. Aircraft were hit by flak and were later shot down by fighters a lot of times. Also even "reliable" eyewitness reports of crews seeing a aircraft going down and attributing it to flak doen't always mean that is what happen. A quick pounce and gone attack can be over with the turn of a head

Re: Hans Philipp 1943
 

Hi,

"5.9.39/1415 PZL P.11 (claimed as "PZL P.24"), 7km S of Radomsko. Report said that the pilot was seen to jump without a shot being fired. Not confirmed by Polish records, however".
Be carefull with this statement because in fact he did shoot down a Polish a/c on this occasion (not P.11 fighter however).

Regards

Robert

Hans Philipp 1943
 

Hi,

by the way in the 16.05.43 combat 78th FG had another P-47 severely damaged with pilot WIA and claimed 3 FW190 against 1 real german loss (II/JG1)

Alessandro

Re: Hans Philipp 1943
 

Well then, please do what the rest of us have done and share the details. Take the time to update everyone's knowledge...

Re: Hans Philipp 1943
 

You have to wait for our EOE book.

Regards

Robert

Re: Hans Philipp 1943
 

Sounds like a one-way communication highway ...

Re: Hans Philipp 1943
 

How do you mean?

Re: Hans Philipp 1943
 

What I meant is that ... you will receive limited info here on the TOCH pertaining the EoE project, that is until the EoE series of books is published. That is alright after all, look forward to reading it.

Re: Hans Philipp 1943
 

Erm.... OK. Interesting choice of words, I would have thought you were trying to say something else but anyways...

...Can anyone add anything on his Soviet victims?

Re: Hans Philipp 1943
 

Ok Nick, since you insist... I felt that it was not such a big deal for Robert, or anyone else for that matter, to share the details here on the TOCH on the Polish aircraft Hans Phillip shot down that day, and that it would not affect the EoE project in any way. In short, I supported your view expressed in post No.15, so I was somewhat taken by surprise when you requested additional clarification.

Hope that this clarifies the matter.

Regards,
Sinisa

Re: Hans Philipp 1943
 

Nick, here is an example from allaces.ru. look at the episode for the 12 Jan 1943 involving the six I-16 from the 4 GIAP KBF escorting the two Pe-2 (73 BAP KBF). Those two attacking fighters were Philipps and Reinhardt claiming their Pe-2 (143) and Pe-2 (16) both at 14:05. No losses from the 73 BAP KBF but the claim by 4 GIAP KBF for a Bf 109 was also not valid.

Re: Hans Philipp 1943
 

I had an idea that's what you meant and fully agree with you, just thought I'd check my understanding of your post before throwing in my lot with its sentiment. The result of one combat is hardly going to spoil an entire book project and most TOCH members would know that I fully intend to publish my database eventually...
...and yet, here on the board, as a thanks to all who help and have helped me, I never hold back from helping members out by publishing its content from time to time when it is relevant to do so. History belongs to us all and whereas I understand a lot of new info can't always be posted prior to the publication of a particular book or such, making people "wait til it's published" on every single minute skerrick of information is just twaddle.

Re: Hans Philipp 1943
 

Hi Nokose, thanks for this. I had inaccurate info left over on my database that stated these victories were claimed as IL-2s. I had the date from allaces.ru marked to check back over because I had found the losses on their listing but had not yet 'found' the German claims pertaining to them. You've really clarified something for me here and I definitely appreciate it.

Re: Hans Philipp 1943
 

Post No.23: Nick, thank you for the note, I believe that we fully agree on this one.

Re: Hans Philipp 1943
 

According to dr Tomasz Kopański and Łukasz Łydżba on the 5th Sept. 1939 Lt. Philipp shot down by mistake Hs 126B from 2.(H)/23 (crew: L. Ernst G. Aschmann and Uffz. Alfred Weissel - both killed). German plane crashed in the forest near Radziechowice, about 5-10 km SW of Radomsko. In his report Philipp claimed victory over "polish high-wing aircraft" (later claimed as PZL P.24) 7 km SW of Radomsko. "Polish" pilot bailed out but his chute failed.

According to witnesses from the ground, German pilot bailed out but he slipped out of the parachute harness and fell on the cemetery in Radziechowice (It coincides with Philipp's report). The second member of the crew was killed earlier and crashed in the cockpit of the plane. Both were buried by the parish priest and Radziechowice residents on the local cemetery, but in 1940 were exhumed.


Regards,
Artur

Re: Hans Philipp 1943
 

I checked once again in new book of Łukasz Łydżba about III/6 Dywizjon Myśliwski (Fighter Squadron). This Hs 126 was shot down on the 3rd of Sept. 1939 by kpr. Zbigniew Urbańczyk from 162. EM.

Previous information came from 2009 article. So, I'm sorry for the confusion.

Re: Hans Philipp 1943
 

Hi Artur,

it was another plane. Hs 126 was in fact shoot down by Polish fighter.

Regards

Robert

Re: Hans Philipp 1943
 

Here is a problem with the PlQu. in Tony Woods list and the list in Prien's JFV 12/III in trying to determine which is right (Involves Philipp and Reinhardt)
23 Feb 1943
Philipps Yak-1 (173) 08.50 Prien 36 Ost/10512 Woods 00412
Philipps Yak-1 (174) 08.53 Prien 36 Ost/10392 Woods 00392
Philipp Yak-1 (175) 08.55 Prien 36 Ost/10363 Woods 00363
Philipps Yak-1 (176) 08.59 Prien 36 Ost/10334 Woods 00334
Reinhardt Yak-1 (29) 08.57 Prien 36 Ost/10364 Woods 00364

Before this they match and after this they match. So can any of the experts out there provide which one is correct from their flight books.

Re: Hans Philipp 1943
 

So (...and running the grave risk of repeating myself....) what exactly did Philipp shoot down that day? Here's your big chance....

Artur, thanks by the way for your informative post and attempt to add something to this discussion.

Re: Hans Philipp 1943
 

Hi Nick,

sorry but I can`t published this on internet before our book will be published.

Regards

Robert

Re: Hans Philipp 1943
 

(...sigh...) I give up. Sidney, Artur, if you are ever in Australia look me up.

Re: Hans Philipp 1943
 

Once again bringing this horse back to the track.

On the 17 Mar 1943 Maj. Philipp's scored his 203rd victory in Russia before taking over JG1. I don't have Prien's JFV 10/I so can anyone advise how many victories he scored after the 17th of March. In Eric Mombeek's book Defending the Reich: The History of Jagdgeschwader 1 'Oesau' it indicates he shot down his 206th victory over a US fighter before going missing. No, US fighter seems to have went down in that area and Fw. Reinhardt allegedly collided with a US fighter. So who might have claimed Obstlt. Philipp in this battle?

Re: Hans Philipp 1943
 

This is very sad and it's a pity that poor Hans was killed.

Re: Hans Philipp 1943
 

In Jagdgeschwader 1 und 11 teil 1 (Prien)

2/05/43=spit 204.19h43 120km west Harlem
16/5/43=P-47 205. 13h12 25km nord Zeebrugge
8/10/43 B-17 206. 15h32

michel