15 April - first P-47 kill in ETO - confirmed, or not?
 

I really need to know this :) On 15 April 1943 Maj. Don Blakeslee of 4 FG (supposedly) knocked down a Focke Wulf of I./JG 1 - the first P-47 victory in ETO. Is this kill confirmed in LW sources? Anyone knows for sure?

Sorry, the claim was not justified and on the contrary 3 P-47's went down of which two by Ofw. Ernst Heesen ( 5./JG 1). Time was 17.41 (according to Flak Commander).

15 Fw 190's took off from Bergen op Zoom but actually 14 entered combat and as said they didn't take losses.

Thank you Wim, again!

Btw, I'm just re-reading the book by Gabreski. I'm not sure - who was the first 56 FG ace - Hub Zemke (on 2 October 1943)?

oke! Just mail me directly in future reagrding matters around the Scheldt area

Wim
Can you positively exclude any German losses in that combat?

Lagarto - I think we share a common interest for this date in history! I have been researching all the various claims to what really happened on this date and was intrigued by the fact that no losses were sustained by JG1 on this date, which is the day pf first P-47 kill of WWII in th ETO. There are still several sources that claim the P-47 losses were due to engine/mechanical failure, as opposed to enemy action.

I remember the first time I read that JG1 FW-190 pilot Ernst Heessen actually shot down 2 P-47s and the group had no losses - I was very intrigued by this information. The books were 'Battles with the Luftwaffe' by Theo Boiten and Martin Bowman (although in their previous collaboration 'Raiders of the Reich', they state that 2 of the P-47 losses were due to engine failure). The other book that states the 2 P-47s were shot down by one FW-190 pilot is Don Caldwell's 'JG-26 War Diary - Vol. 2'. Anyway - we share a common interest on 'having to know'! :D

Here is an incident I'd like more clarification on: I recently finished reading Roger Freeman's new book on the 56th FG "Wolfpack Warriors'. We all know the Jume 26, 1943 event where Lt. Robert S. Johnson is bounced by FW-190s and is almost shot down and then another FW-190s 'escorts' him to the French coast.

In this new book, Freeman has a statement from Gerald Johnson where he claims that he shot the FW-190 from R.S. Johnson's tail and that his claim of being escorted by the 190 was an exagaration of what really happend!

Any thoughts on this new information? And my apologies for a post on an old topic, but I just was turned on to this site and am very impressed by the level of detail and amount of information available here.

Hi Reno, thanks for posting - now, this is news, indeed. An entire chapter (XII) is devoted to this story in Bob Johnson'sautobiography "Thunderbolt!". I can't believe that man has just made it up. Anyway, very intriguing... :)
I imagine that both cases will remain a bit of a mystery forever. Btw, I've seen photos of Johnson's Half Pint after the famous scrap of 26 June and, while it certainly was shot up, it didn't look like a complete write-off - as described in the book.

Lagarto - That he was bounced and shot-up is true - no doubt! I have seen all the famous photos of his shot-up plane. What is intersting is what Gerald Johnson states that there was never a 190 flying alongside since he shot the plane down!

Moving to another topic: I was wondering if you knew of any further detail on the 4/15/43 dogfight where JG1 FW-190 pilot Ernst Heessen shot down the 2 4th FG P-47s?

Reno, I just recived a mail from a friend of mine and this is what he wrote:
"I pulled out my copy of William Hess' 'P47 Thunderbolt At War' to check out what Blakeslee said about the first P47 victory. Don't know whether you've seen it but Blakeslee describes the action of 15th April 1943. After shooting at the '190 he says it "lurched sharply and a fraction of a second later crashed into the ground exploding." I don't see how he could have mistaken that- but your text seems to imply he didn't get a victory because all aircraft of II/JG1 returned to base safely. Perhaps he shot down an aircraft from some other unit- who knows?"

So, who knows? :) No further details on Heessen's involvement, though.

I agree - we'll never know, especially since Blakeslee was at this time a veteren and would know when a plane was a goner.

There are other references that state the 190 pilot was seen to try and bail out was unable to do so. So maybe it was from some other unit? This is good stuff!

This subject as intrigued me for some time, not that I did any primary research on it, it had always struck me as illogical.

The last time I debated the issue, on the Forgotten Battles forum, I was almost lynched as an Anti-American, Anti-(american)Hero, anti- everything and being of course being pro Nazi etc etc etc, but apart from many quotes of Thunderbolt! and one or two photos showing moderate damage (and a lot of combat damage pictures of US heavy bombers), I've never received a proper answer until now. The story reads as being unreal, apart from the initial bounce that is.

Of course the most interesting piece of evidence beside pilot reports, or pilot annecdotes like Gerald Johnson's, would be the tech report on that P-47.

To spice up a story would one be tempted to count holes instead of rounds (blurring the distinction between rounds hit and fragmentary damage from rounds hit, especially with cannon).

Ruy - that's unfortunate since I assume your post was like the one I did on this same subject a few months ago - informative and providing new insight on an event that has become part of the historical record.

I posted this same info a few months ago at the IL2 FB forum and it received little attention. Again this is Gerald Johnson's claim in this new book and in no way are the posts past, present, future mean to take away from the spirit and courage of any of these flyers, especially Bob Johnson who to me was one of the most aggressive fighter pilots in the USAAF during this period.

What I find it odd is that it this new information surfaces now and not earlier in any other book on this subject, especially a Freeman book who has written many book on the 56th FG.

Here's the actual quote from the book: "From times and location Gerald Johnson was convinced that the FW190 he shot down was that which shot up his namesake's P-47. He heard Bob's story and said nothing, although he thought that in the excitment Bob had let his imagination run awy with him concerning the chivalrous German pilot. No such incident was reported from the German side."

Btw, it's not clear who that German pilot possibly was - some sources suggest Egon Mayer, others Eder. Caldwell claims it must have been one of JG 26 pilots.

Lucky Johnson, had he flown against Russians, he would have probably been rammed and gone :)

The state of Johnson's a/c has been variously described as headed for the junk heap, never flew again. In 'Beware the Thunderbolt! The 56th FG in WWII' by David R. McLaren has a more official description of Johnson's P-47: it was listed as a Category B damage, a total right-off.

There is some confusion here.

According to the 4th Fighter Group history Escort to Berlin, there were two separate encounters with German fighters, about 50 minutes apart, involving two different squadrons. Officially the show was called Rodeo 204 -- a fighter sweep to Furnes, Belgium, to Cassel, France.

Times given are conflicting, probably because the group was split up. Both 56th and 78th Group aircraft participated to gain experience. At 1701 hours, Blakeslee was leading the 335th FS when he spotted three FW-190s over Knocke, at 23,000 ft., and bounced one from 6,000 ft. above. The summary says the German pilot dived away and the tail chase levelled off at 500 ft. before the Focke-Wulf crashed into the sea near Ostend.

Meanwhile the 334th FS was crossing the North Sea, and they engaged FW-190s at about 1750 hours. Two pilots were shot down and killed: Capt. Stanley Anderson (P-47C 41-6407) and Capt. Richard McMinn (P-47C 41-6204). Both crashed into the water several miles off the coast of Belgium, between Ostend and Blankenberghe.

Lt. Col. Chesley Peterson was the overall mission commander and took off at '1650', although that could be a typographic error. Major Don Blakeslee must have departed earlier with the 335th FS -- because they were over the mainland by 1700, and he also picked up two dislocated squadrons of the 56th Fighter Group. Peterson's plane (P-47C 41-6414) was the first loss of the day, and not involved in combats. He aborted early because of engine trouble shortly after take-off, and bailed out into the sea 30 miles off the English coast. Rescued by a Walrus 45 minutes later.

Maybe the imagination came from Martin Caidin.

Caidin was a science-fiction writer who also co-wrote a book with Saburo Sakai. Henry Sakaida said when Sakai's memoirs were translated into English, Caidin took more than a few liberties with the truth, and embellished or distorted Sakai's accounts of the war. Some parts of the text amounted to complete fabrication by Caidin.

The info I have read states the action was against 15 FW-190 A-4s of JG1 over Ostend and the unit suffered no losses except one a/c that force landed. As I mentioned previously, Blakeslee was a veteren and would surely have known when he clobbered an a/c and that it crashed into the sea. The locations given for the 4th FG kills were W/Olstend, Belgian coast and Knocke (Blakeslee's).


There is also a brief description in Donald Caldwell's JG-26 War Diary Vol 2, that states JG-26 was scrambled, but were held where they were and did not engage, leaving the interception to the FW-190s from II/JG1. So maybe it was another group of planes from another unit? Like I said - this is a very intriguing topic!

Nifty - funny you mention Caidin! I grew up reading his books and in fact it was 'Thunderbolt' that started my interest in the ETO airwar! The descriptions of the way Johnson flew the plane, his dogfights and the overall descriptions of the air war was terrific - I think I read that book several times over. I'm a big fan of the 56th FG (as well as the 357th FG!).

On the June 26 air battle: from Gerald Johnson's quote it sounds like the incident Bob Johnson describes was first told when he landed and got back to base.

Talk about imagination from Caidin - I read a story a long time ago about another Caidin book on Pres. Lyndon Johnson's war time experiences in the Pacific War. The event he described where Lyndon Johnson, still a congressman, went on a bombing mission was totally false. The plane Johnson was in, I believe, suffered mechanical failure and was not able to fly the mission at all, but Lyndon Johnson apparently received a medal for it!

Hey I just noticed something - this is a pretty heavily weighted Johnson post. :D

Btw, Nifty - wasn't Chesley's second name Peterson, not Petersen? Cannot check right now as I'm at work :)
Btw, thank you for the info. I read he bailed out over the Channel but I thought he was shot down. Gotta get myself the book you mentioned. Does anyone have a copy of Goodson's "Tumult in the Clouds"? Is it worth buying?

Yes, my bad. It has been corrected with the editing tool.

It depends on the evidence used for evaluation, like gun camera film or eyewitness reports from Blakeslee's wingman or another pilot. If the gun film did not show a plane crash into the sea, or there was no witness, then a Focke-Wulf should not have been counted as destroyed.

One other possibility is that the three FWs seen by Blakeslee were from a ferry flight, or flown by pilots who were visiting German bases for some reason.

Re: 15 April - first P-47 kill in ETO - confirmed, or not?
 

It's definately possible that the a/c Blakeslee bounced were from a differnt unit altogather - I would again submit he had a few kills under him already and that if it was seen to crash into the sea - well not much more to discuss! I find it fascinating that there is more and more reseach being conducted by both professional researchers/historians, aas well as very keen amateurs on the air fighting of WWII!

Although it'd be nice to hear from Col. Blakeslee himself. I believe his he still with us (I saw him in a History Channel episode about the P-51). Man would he have a terific autobiography!

Re: 15 April - first P-47 kill in ETO - confirmed, or not?
 

Overclaim over sea was particularly high. Quite often airmen have been watching an aircraft going down in a hopeless situation and then just nothing - conclusion drawn is obvious - the aircraft went into the drink - but it is not necessarily true. This applies to all air forces.
All the answers should be in Blakeslee combat report - anybody checked it?

Re: 15 April - first P-47 kill in ETO - confirmed, or not?
 

Franek - your remark about claims over water is interesting. Please elaborate on this topic. I'm interested since most of the descriptions on this day's event claim the German a/c crashed into the water after a combat from 20,000 plus feet to about 500 feet.

In Jim Goodson's book, he describes the combat that dropped down to 500 feet. I'd like to read the combat report and maybe even research the gun came footage ... I'm close to the Natl Archives that house the WWII gun point info. Again I would side with the description of the pilot, especially a veteren with a few kills under his belt.

But the reason this is a on-going topic is that the German unit involved admitted to no losses that day.

Re: 15 April - first P-47 kill in ETO - confirmed, or not?
 

Well, it is a general observation, not sure how can I elaborate. Of course errors in German documents cannot be excluded as well.

Re: 15 April - first P-47 kill in ETO - confirmed, or not?
 

I guess I'm just trying to establish a base line - if the pilot states he shot an enemy a/c down and it was seen to crash into the sea, but post war research states no a/c were shot down for the unit that most likely was in the area - what could we as avid WWII military aviation enthusists uncover and where do we start?

Re: 15 April - first P-47 kill in ETO - confirmed, or not?
 

Regarding Tumult in the Clouds, it is been a while since I read it, but it did not read like a very accurate piece of history, some of it actually feels more than iffy to me (but I'd need to read the whole thing again to be specific). Personally I would only consider it worth a purchase if you are either a real enthusiast, a real collector, find it in a bargain bin or finally when book space and cash aren't an issue.

I am not 100% sure on this one, but I also believe that Goodson writes about half of the Jagdwaffe as augering into the see...this may be an exaggeration, but some pilots seem to have a knack for seeing Messerschmitts in death dives.

;)

Please spare me the heavy high speeds controls debate!

Re: 15 April - first P-47 kill in ETO - confirmed, or not?
 

Currently I am looking for German pilots who baled out from Fw 190s in April 1942 in France, I understand your problem.
Well, your baseline is the claim. All you can do is to research Allied operations of the day in order to make a clear view of the mission as well as other missions of the day. Then you have to research Luftwaffe operations which is not that very easy but still you have plenty of sources both German and from Allied intelligence.
Have in mind that quite often German losses are inaccurate or misdated, I have found some combat losses that occured on the days no combats were reported by Allies. Of course no definite proof as they could have occured due to friendly fire or simply not claimed. I was talking to a pilot, who claimed he had separated from a formation for a free hunt. Together with a friend they bounced two Me 109s but never claimed them as this was a clear case of breaking the orders. I have found a confirmation from another source, I think independent enough to make the story credible.

Re: 15 April - first P-47 kill in ETO - confirmed, or not?
 

Re: 15 April - first P-47 kill in ETO - confirmed, or not?
 

I forgot to include the most controversial case of inflated aerial victories at sea:

December 18th, 1939
After 22 RAF bombers crossed the North Sea and subsequently aborted their attack on German ships at Wilhelmshaven, the RAF admitted that twelve Wellingtons failed to return from the mission. Ten planes were shot down near the target and two ditched later. The remaining ten Wellingtons were all damaged to some extent and several were scrapped after landing in the UK. There is disagreement on the total kills awarded to German flyers. Several pilot reports were either rejected or not confirmed by higher authorities, but if I understood correctly, Tony Wood's Web site lists 40 Wellingtons claimed as shot down into the sea by JG 1, JG 26, JG 77, ZG 76 and JGr. 101.

Re: 15 April - first P-47 kill in ETO - confirmed, or not?
 

The Most Controversial Case of Inflated Victories at Sea

By who's authority, yours?

First you cannot bring up any hard numbers for German claims, second why bring this up in the first place? Isn't this about an early USAAF claim?

There wasn't a discussion about enthusiastic early (as in 1939) war claims.

Also it isn't about absolute numbers, but about relative ones. In your assumed case it is a 4:1 overclaim, are your sure this is really is The Most Controversial Case of Inflated Victories at Sea?

Please keep the discussion on topic, if you want to discuss this event, go to the Luftwaffe part of this site. See what figures come up.

Re: 15 April - first P-47 kill in ETO - confirmed, or not?
 

I brought it up because, at this time, Tony Wood seems to have the best available information on the total number of German pilot claims, whether officially sanctioned or not.

Is it? Franek made a remark about inflated claims over water as a general occurrence -- and Reno asked for more information.

Relative to what?

I would say so. One of your forum readers (Don Caldwell) said that the large discrepancy between Luftwaffe claims and RAF losses led to a prolonged controversy between German and British historians. That is a very interesting observation because this mission was a small-scale bombing raid by World War II standards, and yet military aviation writers chose to argue about it for some time.

Re: 15 April - first P-47 kill in ETO - confirmed, or not?
 

First a 4:1 overclaim is high, but not extraordinarily so, not to make it controversial. Also there is a difference between it being a controversy and it being THE MOST controversial...

Finally you yourself said it was not clear how many kills were finally awarded.

Also the post did start about the first P-47 kill in the ETO, right, not the Battle of the German Bight, which although interesting in its own right would deserve a thread in the right place.

Personally I think that the main reason this subject is brought up is to pose a counterweight to possible allied enthusiastic claiming - a "well they did it too" attitude which IMHO is not conductive when it comes to the original topic.

ABSOLUTE vs RELATIVE

40:10
4:1
8:2
100:25
all 4 claims vs 1 kill

There are certainly many more cases (worse) than 4:1 overclaiming.

I'm trying to keep this thread on track, that does'n't mean I am not allowed a personal opinion :D

Re: 15 April - first P-47 kill in ETO - confirmed, or not?
 

Hi,
I have analysed files from Tonny Wood web Site, and I think that Maj. Blakeslee shot down not Fw 190 from JG 1, but Bf 109 G-4 WNr. 19222 from 4./JG 54, and killed Oblt. Siegfried Graf von Matuschka (an Eastern Front ace with 29 kills).
I think that 334th Sqn of the 4th FG clashed with Fw 190s from JG 1:

334th pilots claims as below:
Lt.Col. C.G. Peterson 4th FG 334th Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 FW 190 17.50: 12 sm. W. Ostend 24000 ft.
2/Lt. Robert A. Boock 4th FG 334th Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 FW 190 17.50: Ostend 23000 ft.
1/Lt. James A. Clark 4th FG 334th Sqn. 0 - 0 - 1 FW 190 17.50: Ostend 16000 ft.
also time of Ofw. Ernst Heesen two claims is 17: 40

334th loss:
Capt. Stanley M. Anderson: KIA 4th FG 334th Sqn. P-47C-5 41-6407 QP-E
Capt. Richard D. McMinn: KIA 4th FG 334th Sqn. P-47C-2 41-6204 QP-M

More interesting, time of Maj. Blakeslee kill is 17:01, so about 40 minutes before !
According Germans Graf von Matuschka was killed over St. Inglevert ( Pas de Calais region, not so far from Knokke - place of Blakeslee victory), in combat with Spitfires. But in "Combats & Casualties RAF & US Fighter Commands 1943 with Annotated Text ISSUE I" file I found no trace about any Spitfire Unit mission. There was only one more air battle. Over Normandy JG 2 clashed with 247 Sqn RAF. F/Sgt. R.R. Campbell (Typhoon Ib: DN 431 ZY-V) was KIA by Ltn. Horst Hannig from 2./JG 2.

Do you have any comments about this ?

Re: 15 April - first P-47 kill in ETO - confirmed, or not?
 

Hi Gizmo,

I don´t want to annihilate your research work but Saint Inglevert situated S of Calais, France is about 140 km far from Knokke on Belgian-Dutch borderland...

Regards,
Michal

Re: 15 April - first P-47 kill in ETO - confirmed, or not?
 

I think that 140km its not so much for ww2 fighter. Also it maybe some error in Blakeslee Victory place location.

Short brief of the victory (from http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/blake/blake.htm)
"As much as Zemke loved the Thunderbolt, Blakeslee hated it, despite being the first American fighter pilot to score a victory while flying the P-47, when he shot down a FW-190 off the coast of France on April 15, 1943. Blakeslee dove on three Focke-Wulfs, catching one which tried to outdive him, only to explode under the combined impacts of 8 50-caliber machine guns 500 feet over Ostend, Belgium. When he was congratulated for proving that the Thunderbolt could out-dive the Focke-Wulf, Blakeslee replied, "By God it ought to dive, it certainly won't climb!"

So, Blakeslee chased enemy from, I think, about 5000-6000m almost to the ground. Maybe he chased enemy from Knokke to St. Inglevert...