Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Hi guys

I understand that Sgt Alexis Stadnik was a Russian airman who successfully baled out his aircraft (type and unit unknown) on the night of 12/13 or 13/14 September 1942 during a raid on Berlin.

Sgt Stadnik and a companion escaped temporary captivity and reached Belgium where they were spirited away by the Comete Line and reached England. What was Stadnik's fate? Did he remain in England?

Cheers
Brian

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Brian,

A bit more here: http:www.cometeline.org/fiche072.html (translation instructions on Home Page).

Col.

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Interesting story. On September 13, 1942 the 45 AD DD (746 & 890 AP DD), flying the 4 engine, long range Pe-8s flew missions to Bucharest, Rumania (8 Pe-8, dropping 2 FAB-1000, 16 FAB-500TGA, 22 FAB-250TGA, 4 SAB-100 bombs) and Kiev, Ukraine (one Pe-8, dropping 4 FAB-500TGA bombs).
No combat loss this day, only one 890 AP DD Pe-8 (S/N: 42027, commander: Masalev) was lost in an accident.
Found no such name among the lost long-range aviators on September 12, 13, 14, 1942 neither. I think some data must be incorrect.

Cheers,
Gabor

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

890 AP DD Pe-8s (Bogdanov, etc.) bombed Berlin on eg. August 12, 1941.

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Thanks Col

Thanks Gabor: So it would seem that Stadnik and his companion baled out over Berlin on 12 August not 13 September, and possibly from a damaged aircraft that returned to base? A Pe-8 of 890-AP DD? (is this the same unit as the mentioned TB30/9?)

Interesting, as you say!

Cheers
Brian

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Gabor

I can only confirm too that Berlin was bombed on Aug 42 by 890 AP ADD and the
case related to the airman may be applying to such date. As into 746 and 890 AP ADD
I have no such records dated Sept 13,'42 / Bucharest ,746 was by then tight
up in Stalingrad area on a long range night bombing a regiment which became
independent by Aug 18,1942. To my knowledge this specific regiment was based
on Moscow region airfields with TB-7. Regarding 890 AP ADD on Sept 13, 42 I have
no information whatsoever except that they were equipped with TB-7's.

Please advise the source of info as into Bucharest raid

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

I am afraid this is a very messy story. First of all that "unit" is rather a hand written Cyrillic DB-3F (a plane type), not a unit. "0/9" is I think a Cyrillic F: "ф" there.

By the way, that form is totally different from the ones used by the soviet documents. They used No...... AP DD, or GvAP DD in Cyrillic, of course. If this guy fled to England, I doubt he told the correct information about his unit, base, mission, etc. even to his allies. His name is not listed among the lost long-range aviators either. I did not say that he was downed on Aug.12, 1941. What I am saying is that day/night the soviet long-range 890 AP DD Pe-8s bombed Berlin for sure. I never researched the Berlin raids (not interested), but I think this was not the only one, and definitely not by this regiment alone. But I think the Pe-8s were involved in these raids due to the distance and the carried bomb-load.


See the target lists (=monthly op. record) and the dropped bomb-loads of the 45 AD DD Pe-8 regiments in September, 1942. Marked the September 13, 1942 raids with red. Only Bucharest and Kiev, not Berlin. Berlin in fact was NOT in their menu in the whole month!!!!!!
Cheers,

Gabor

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Gabor

The mission sheet shows Bucharest , though none of my Romanian and Russian sources can point out a target bombed by 746th nor 890th or by any Allied Air Force on Sept 13.42 in Bucharest and the area but October 1942. I wonder what target they ended up bombing in Romania .Please send me more material if you have available. It seems
that on Sept 13,42 , 746th departed Lipetsk. Oh an other thing one of those regiments equipped with TB-7 carried Molotov in 1942 to the US.

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Alright, but I think I won't have much more. This is a marginal area in my research and I kept it only for the Budapest entry in it. That part was correct.
Cheers,
Gabor

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Thanks guys,

Most interesting.

Perhaps more will come to light.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Thanks Gabor

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Gabor, thank you very much for the very interesting information that you provided! Do I understnad correctly that the Pe-8s encountered no opposition in the air? I surmise that this was the case because the columns for machine gun and cannon ammunition expenditure are empty. That is somewhat strange, because the night air defences of Berlin were quite well developed by September 1942.

Brian, a note regarding the surname of the sergeant. It is likely that it was Стаднюк, rendered as Stadnyuk in Latin script. This is a reasonably common Ukrainian surname.

Warm regards,

Paul

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Too bad, I couldn't find VVS DD losses for September 13, 1942 which could be linked to Berlin, since the only lost Pe-8 that day was 42027 in an accident, not a combat loss. I also have the list of lost VVS DD planes from their mechanical reports for between September 5 and 10, 1942 when they lost:

5 TB-3 S/N: 22281, 22357, 22296, 22146, 22435
2 DB-3 S/N: 180456, 180735
3 TB-7 S/N: 4224, 4226, 42096

(They also lost 7 IL-4 (DB-3F) and a PS-84 (~Li-2), S/N: 3301) So far I have nothing else for Sept 13., 1942, so not sure about the "Berlin" raid and the escaped guy this day. I still think that some data in his story is incorrect.

Gabor

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Thanks Paul, unfortunately I have no idea why the ammo columns remained blank. (Not even "-") I assume if they met no air opposition, then they did not waste any ammo, so their consumption was zero. Or in the HQ office they simply did not receive data for the "small" stuff. Either way, later this changed, because eg. the IL-2 units in 1944-45 in their war diaries all gave very detailed figures for their used ammo by kind after every mission.
Cheers,

Gabor

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Brian,

Next time you are at the TNA (or one of your minions), check out Stadnik's MI9 Report: No.WO208 3311 946 (G).

http://www.conscript-heroes.com/MI9-02.html

Would make interesting reading!

Col

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Paul,
In 1944 the Pe-8 crews still had several gunners, so they must carry (and use) guns and ammo.
Berlin, btw, was bombed by the 25 GvAP DD Pe-8s as well on March 13, 1943. Cheers,
Gabor

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

If those crews of the US Fort brother managed to get as far as Berlin,Bucharest, Budapest , Warsaw etc by '42 and 43 and unlike those DB-3 and IL-4 crews come back relatively unscaved then this bomber must have had some superior performance features despite the one pilot cockpit type .

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Good day,
Pilots sergeants Stadnik (or Stadnyuk) Aleksei Evdokimovich and his partner Pinchuk Peter Kuzmich is not known to the VVS RKKA.
In a letter to Mr. Stadnik said he Sergeant «strelok-bombardier (navigator) on the bomber TB-3F». But I doubt very much that Berlin was flying navigators with the rank of Sergeant (by age, profession and the mission he was supposed to be a officer). And I very much doubt that the Navigator of the plane didn't know his exact name (DB-3F). Think doesn't make sense to look for a RAID on Berlin on 13 September 1942. In the photograph of a man obviously older than 20 years.
This is a fake legend.
Stadnik Alexei Evdokimovich, 05.05.1922, Stalin oblast, Mariupol. The soldier, private. Died in captivity (in Saxony on the lists of memorial).
Junior Sergeant Pinchuk Peter Kuzmich, 1913(1914) was the commander of anti-aircraft guns and went through the war (with the medal "For military merit" and the 2 orders "Patriotic War 2nd degree").

regards,
Kirill

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Thanks Kirill, for the previously described reasons I also think that this raid & escape story - as recorded(!) - is just a fake legend. Perhaps the escape itself was real, but for military confidentiality, etc. some details were purposely changed/edited.

Cheers,
Gabor

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Gabor, Could be anything. But the pilot in this story was. They knew about the raids on Berlin, about how is called Navigator in the air force of the red army, heard the name of the aircraft DB-3F.
Kirill

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Hi guys

What have I opened? A can of worms?

Assuming the two were not who they claimed to be, then who were they? Might they have been Russian spies?

Intriguing!

Cheers
Brian

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Anything possible. But the story -at least as it is written- from A.F. perspective, definitely looks fake.
Cheers,

Gabor

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Kirche

I agree with most the things you mentioned except the issue with the rank. During WWII Stalinist era pilots and navigators ( sturmans )
were demoted from higher ranks to Ryadovoy (PVT ) medals and titles were confiscated ,many airmen who returned from captivity
in a way or an other and just because they didn't join the camp escape commitees were sent to fly till end of the war as Straffniks on lower
ranks or no ranks at all. Many Navigators and pilots who just finished cadet courses started to fly as sergeants or even
corporals some however directly as Ml Lt. As example on the attached photo 4th from left SSgt (Starshina) was a Navigator.

Finally one question , can you identify the rank of the pilot shot attached ( other than General ) , year dated 1941 ?

PS ; One exception regarding long range crewmen especially those of TB-7 squadrons under special agreement between
Stalin in person and commander of long range avia korpus , airmen who fell in captivity once returned to USSR unlike
the other were not required to pass the NKVD clearing camps .

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

this is not the VVS RKKA pilot.This instructor aviation service of OSOAVIAKHIM.
insignia of the sample in 1937.
Star - this is not the title, it's the category of the post. I do not know the exact differences posts.

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Navigators:
Plane - it's "strelok-bombardir"
Flight (until 1943) - it's "strelok-bombardir"; later - "shturman"
Squadron and higher - it's "shturman"

I did not say that the navigator of the aircraft can not be a sergeant, but I doubt it.
Stadnik said that he was 20 years old. is born in 1922. In 17-18 years (1939-40 year), he had to go as a volunteer in the VASh and finish it in 1940-41. if graduated prior to December 1940 that must be j.l-t or higher. If in December 1940, or later, it Sergeant or above. In the second case, the 09/13/1942, he was to serve for almost a year. He could get a higher rank.
Starshina (Major Sergeant), that you indicated, on two titles higher than Sergeant.
But it could have been...
Most importantly, that such a person appears who died in captivity, and that he was an PVT infantry.

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

In the handwritten letter attached to http://www.cometeline.org/fiche072.html "Alexis" (apparently Aleksey) Stadnik wrote that he fled from German captivity 15.Sep.1942 and that he is a bombardier-gunner of TB-3f.
It isn't clear whether ancient 4-motor TB-3 was mentioned or the modern (for 1942) DB-3f, renamed to Il-4 in 1942. As far as I know, TB-3f modification of TB-3 never existed. Anyway, the error seems strange.

P.S.
Oops, I have missed 2nd and 3rd pages of the discussion :)

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Kirche

Thanks for feedback Streliok/Bombardier who later promoted to Sturman was a very
rare terminology , earlier on the war it was named Letnab and then promoted to Sturman

Though from a Gunner /Bombardier to Stumanwas uncommon , something the uncle of
my wife who was by then St Lt in VVS cleared me up on.

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Gabor,

Indeed they did. The Pe-8 was armed with 5 ShKAS machine-guns and 2 ShVAK cannon, as far as I remember from the literature.

Am I correct to assume that no Pe-8s were lost on March 13, 1943, either? It is strange that these raids, performed by small numbers of low performance aircraft, appear to have suffered a lower loss rate than comparable RAF operations.

I have sent you a PM.

Warm regards,

Paul

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Hello Paul
Pe-8 wasn't a low performance a/c and LW defences were clearly orientated against attacks from the west.

Juha

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Hello Juha,

The series production Pe-8 with its AM-35A engines was certainly a low performance aircraft by 1942. Your contention that the Luftwaffe defences were orientated against threats from the West is interesting, but doesn't fully explain the absence of night fighter interception.

Warm regards,

Paul

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Hello Paul
Which of the performance figures of the AM-35A powered TB-7/Pe-8 were low for a heavy night bomber by 1942? Maximum speed 443 km/h at 6,360 m, service ceilings 9,300 m, maximum bomb load 4,000 kg, maximum range with 2,000 kg bomb load and full fuel tanks 3,600 km.

Juha

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

If you reffer to TB-7 models 1939 then they had serious problems with the
main supercharger units which severely affected the service ceiling of the
a/c and as such the TB-7 was then a low performance bomber.As of early
1940 the Plant 124 halted production.However later on the same year Mihail
Kaganovitch (brother of famous Lazar Kaganovitch ) who took over the plant ordered
the next 6 TB-7 to bee equipped with AM-35A powerplants producing 1200 HP
each .In parallel Charmosky Diesel engines M-30 and 40 series were produced
as an optional outfit.

On August 9th 1941 the bombers equipped with M-40 and led by famous Arctic
flyer Vodopyanov raided Berlin. By mid 1942 the TB-7 was equipped with Shvetsov
1800 hp M-82 engines consisting of twin superchargers air cooled radial engines.

While the first batch of M-82A engine run through infancy problems which were
eventually overcomed by 1943 the plant chief developing section was led by J.Nezval one
of the leading Tupolev assistants. By autumn / winter 1942 some of the aircrafts
developed some sort of tech problems due to manufacturing QC issues .In 1943
the Germans enhanced their night fighter ME-110 units which managed to shot down
4 TB-7's . On the same year due to extra asymetric power during take off run it
caused the bomber to veer off the runway an event which cause the loss of 6 TB-7
some of these incidents were also related to compressor bearing failures.

By late 1943 early 1944 the PE-8 was less powerful and ecconomical but more reliable
for the units which operated the a/c such as 746 AP ADD.


Generally speaking TB-7 was by mid 1942 anything but a low performance bomber, rather
a bomber which once in a while was put on AOG status not due performance but
messed up production QC issues .

Alex K

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Hello Juha,

I do not think there is any evidence that the figures that you cite were ever achieved by operational aircraft, with the exception of maximum bombload. The altitude performance is particularly exaggerated, even the Lancaster had an operational ceiling of just 22,000 feet.

Warm regards,

Paul

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Be a bit careful. The usually quoted service ceiling is not the same thing as a realistic operational altitude when fully loaded. It is quoted for an value of climb rate that is considered so low that simply isn't worth trying to get any higher. Nowadays that could be 250 ft/min or higher (sorry, it's been a few years since I did this): for WW2 aircraft it is likely to be lower, perhaps 100 ft/min or less. It will normally be calculated for a range of weights/configurations/conditions, but the one quoted will not be the one at maximum load/maximum drag/hottest day. Unless, of course, it actually states so, but that doesn't make good publicity and doesn't reflect the genuine capability of an aircraft.

A Lancaster will have a quoted service ceiling above its (normal, varied) operational ceiling: though Putnam's The British Bomber only quotes 24,500ft unloaded. The Pe8 will have an operational ceiling (as said above) below the quoted 9,300m, but that needn't imply no Pe8 ever got up there.

There are separate arguments about reliability, build and training standards, and how average aircraft in average service conditions with average crews will never match predictions or even test results.

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Hello
I'm well aware that the operational ceiling is a different figure than the service ceiling. But it isn't surprising that the AM-35A engined Pe-8 had higher ceiling than the Lanc because AM-35A was a high altitude engine, the same engine powered MiG-1 and MiG-3. Just look the altitudes at which the Pe-8 and the Lanc B. III achieved their respectively max speeds. Pe-8 had its problems and limitations but it wasn't a low performance plane.

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Hi,

The TB-7 WWII VVS operational records ( Russian language ) with AM-35A engines show anything but low performance , also keep in mind values such as TAS, CAS as into speed /payloads etc . The problems and limitations of TB-7 had nothing to do with low performance , as such Juha statements apply ,rest are presumtions .

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Graham, yoru description of the difference between service ceiling and operational ceiling is correct, of course. The operational ceiling is the one we are interested in here. The problem that I have with Juha's figures is that, in all likelihood, they refer to design bureau test results, not military acceptance trials of a production aircraft.

An added problem with the Pe-8 is that the production aircraft flew with an engine, the Mikulin AM-35A, which was not the originally intended powerplant. It is possible that the altitude of 9,300 m was reached by an early TB-7 with a fifth engine in the central fuselage, acting as a supercharger for the other engines. The concept was similar to that later used by the Hs 130E.

To cut to the chase, I think figures from the Pe-8 manual or, better still, from operational unit records need to be cited here. Otherwise, it's not possible to give credence to the performance figures above.

Juha, you are right that the AM-35A had a relatively high critical altitude. It needs to be demonstrated that this was sufficient to propel the heavy and aerodynamically conservative Pe-8 to a high altitude. I have my doubts.

Warm regards,

Paul

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

If you can get a hold of the opersvodka ( Russian language ) of 746 AP ADD you will determine that the missions flown to Warsaw,Berlin, Bucharest,Danzig and Stalingrad
from Kratowo and Lipetsk were ranging at alt. from 23'000 ft to 29'000 ft .

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Thank you for the information, Alex. Were these the average altitudes at which the sorties were flown, altitudes over the target, or something else?

Warm regards,

Paul

Re: Russians bomb Berlin 13 September 1942
 

Paul

The 746 AP ADD opersvodka does not specify overhead where, when and how these altitudes
were flown , fact is that on the Luftwaffe's eyes possibly also on those of OSS and SOE
the PE-8 was an efficient high performance long range bomber . On that context I would
like to recommend you the book attached ( took a shot for you ) .Russian igenuity was not
underestimated and should not be contested.The problems affecting equipment performance
and their air personnel during WWII were from within and not from outside , something I
am certain you know .I am not certain where this book can be acquired ,coze I got mine
from USAF Maxwell AFB ( Air University )