Belly landed Fw 190 at Fürth May 1945
 

Hello,

Does anybody know more about this belly landed Fw 190 at Fürth. It appears to wear Luftflotte 4 markings and contrary to the text doesn't seem to have a double chevron marking, but rather a letter or number tactical code:

http://lostimagesofww2.com/photos/machines/fw190.php

Cheers,

Roger

Re: Belly landed Fw 190 at Fürth May 1945
 

Hello Roger,

Unless I am mistaken, the aircraft in question was AGO-built Fw 190 A-8 WNr. 739276. It markings were <◄c+ all outlined in white. The second chevron was a small solid triangle enclosed by the larger chevron, while the “c” is small.

I first illustrated this aircraft in AIRFOIL #3 in 1985. According to the noted aviation historian Tom Ivie, this Focke-Wulf was forced down at Fürth by F-6C (P-51D) pilots Lt. Ed Kinney and Lt. Bob Marple of the 12th TACR Squadron.

Steve Sheflin

Re: Belly landed Fw 190 at Fürth May 1945
 

Hello again Roger,

I forgot to mention that the lower part of the large chevron can be seen behind the trailing edge of its wing in my copy of the photo you posted.

Steve Sheflin

Re: Belly landed Fw 190 at Fürth May 1945
 

Hello Steve,

thank you very much for the information. Is it known from what unit the aircraft was? Possibly a SG unit (but then I would have expected an F-8 rather than an A-8)?

I read in JaPo's excellent D-9 books that about 20 aircraft were captured at Fürth. Is it known which aircraft they were (I know of the JG 6 D-9s and a Stuka)?

Best regards

Roger

Re: Belly landed Fw 190 at Fürth May 1945
 

Steve,

from which source does the werknummer 739276 come from? I don't think I saw this before. Is this the same a/c as shown in Luftwaffe Verband No. 2 page 22? which had 32377 painted on the engine cowl ring?

Thanks,

John

Re: Belly landed Fw 190 at Fürth May 1945
 

The A-8 didn't have 7.9mm mgs (MG17) but 13mm mgs (MG131).

Re: Belly landed Fw 190 at Fürth May 1945
 

Hello everyone,

Unless I am mistaken, I believe that the Werknummer I posted is correct. I have other photos of it where the number is visible. Since my wife passed away, many of my photos have gone into storage and I am unable to put my hands on them immediately. I will try to dig them out—however, since I lack a scanner or the knowledge to post them anyway—posting them for everyone is problematic.

As to the aircraft with the white BMW 801D Motornummer 32377x visible on its lower oil cooler ring and being dragged near some buildings, I believe that is the same one.

I also think that it was likely from one of the SG units fleeing westward. There are several examples of Fw 190 A’s operating with SG units, especially by commanders.

Kutscha, are you suggesting that the aircraft in question has the flatter gun cover of MG17’s? To my eyes, it clearly has the bulged MG131cover. It also features 4xMG151 wing cannon and a right-wingtip-mounted pitot tube as found on an Fw 190 A-8 or F-8.

Steve Sheflin

Re: Belly landed Fw 190 at Fürth May 1945
 

Just like Roger I would be interested if we could establish a complete as possible list of a/c that landed at Fürth a/f on May 8th 1945.....

Cheers,

John

Re: Belly landed Fw 190 at Fürth May 1945
 

Hello,

So far I have:

Ju 87 with Luftflotte 4 markings, NSGr. 10, W.Nr. 141286
Bf 109 G-10, W.Nr. 770269, 5F+12, 2./NAGr. 14
Another unidentified Bf 109 seen in the background of the Ju 87 color photo
Fw 190 A-8, W.Nr. 739276, <<c, Luftflotte 4 markings
Fw 190 A-8, W.Nr. 961118, Red 5 (color photo exists showing it in front of W.Nr. 770269
Fw 190 A-8, W.Nr 739533, Red 6
Fw 190 A-8, W.Nr. 961198, Red 7
Fw 190 D-9, W.Nr. 500570, Black 12
Fw 190 D-9, 211834

Roger

Re: Belly landed Fw 190 at Fürth May 1945
 

Shouldn´t the WNr not be 211934? Black <o + - from Stab II./JG 6
Exact designation ot the airfield is Fürth-Atzenhof.

Regards

RolandF

Re: Belly landed Fw 190 at Fürth May 1945
 

At least three, possibly four Stukas surrendered at Furth. Red F, Red C and Red L, the last identified with the W.Nr. as per above. I am still trying to identify the location of a possible fourth from a photo in my collection...

Mark Proulx

Re: Belly landed Fw 190 at Fürth May 1945
 

Additionally, Bf 109 G-14 "Black 17" and Fw 190 D-9 "Black 4".

Mark Proulx

Re: Belly landed Fw 190 at Fürth May 1945
 

10th PRG reported that 14 planes landed at R-28 Fürth on May 8th with 26 POW's in total: 3 Ju 87, 8 Fw 190, 2 Me 109 and 1 Si 104....do we have them all, including werknummer? At least 6 of them were from JG 6:

D-9, Blaue 12 + - (8./JG 6)
D-9, Schwarze 4 + - (6./JG 6)
D-9, <o + - (Stab II./JG 6)
A-8, Rote 5, 6 and 7 (all 2./JG 6)

John

Re: Belly landed Fw 190 at Fürth May 1945
 

OK, I have summarized the aircraft below. In addition to the 14 that according to the 10th PRG surrendered in 8 May 1945, there were probably some that were there when the airfield was occupied (e.g. an unidentified Bf 109 seen in the background if the Ju 87 color photo).

3x Ju 87:

- Ju 87 D, W.Nr. 141286, NSGr. 10, surrendered 8 May 1945
- Ju 87 D, W.Nr. ?, NSGr. 10, surrendered 8 May 1945
- Ju 87 D, W.Nr. ?, NSGr. 10, surrendered 8 May 1945

3x Bf 109:

- Bf 109 G-10, W.Nr. 770269, 5F+12, 2./NAGr. 14, surrendered 8 May 1945
- Bf 109 G-14, W.Nr. ?, Black 14, unit ?, surrendered 8 May 1945
- Bf 109 G, W.Nr. ?, no tactical code visible (a/c can be seen in the background of the well known Ju 87 color photo), possibly already at Fuerth when the airfield was occupied

8x Fw 190:

- Fw 190 A-8, W.Nr. 739276, <<c+, unit ?, surrendered 8 May 1945
- Fw 190 A-8, W.Nr. 961118, Red 5+, 2./JG 6, surrendered 8 May 1945
- Fw 190 A-8, W.Nr 739533, Red 6+, 2./JG 6, surrendered 8 May 1945
- Fw 190 A-8, W.Nr. 961198, Red 7+, 2./ JG 6, surrendered 8 May 1945
- Fw 190 D-9, W.Nr. 500570, Blaue 12+-, 8./JG 6, surrendered 8 May 1945
- Fw 190 D-9, W.Nr. 211939, Black 4+-, 6./JG 6, surrendered 8 May 1945
- Fw 190 D-9, W.Nr. 211934, <o+-, Stab II./JG 6, surrendered 8 May 1945
- Fw 190, W.Nr. ?, tactical code ?, unit ?, surrendered 8 May 1945?

1x Si 104:

- Si 104, W.Nr. ?, tactical code?, unit ?, surrendered 8 May 1945?

Does anybody know what the last of the 8 Fw 190 was that surrendered on 8 May 1945? Also, I only know of one photo that shows the belly landed Fw 190. Are there more known photos?

Roger

Re: Belly landed Fw 190 at Fürth May 1945
 

If it helps, the last letters of the Si 204's Stammkennzeichen were +RN...

Re: Belly landed Fw 190 at Fürth May 1945
 

Was it a Si 104 or a Si 204?

Re: Belly landed Fw 190 at Fürth May 1945
 

Hi Roger,

it's a 204. Here's the one photo I have of it (from an Ebay auction). Nothing else that's special about it, as far as I can see..

Re: Belly landed Fw 190 at Fürth May 1945
 

Hello Eveyone,

I have the Si 204 in question as Stammkennzeichen KJ+RN, Werknummer unknown.

Steve Sheflin

Re: Belly landed Fw 190 at Fürth May 1945
 

Hello Christian and Steve,

thanks for the information about the Si 204. According to stammkennzeichen.de it was a Si 204 D-1 and belonged to FFS B3 in May 1944 and then to 2./JG 104 in August 1944. No serial number indicated.

Roger

Re: Belly landed Fw 190 at Fürth May 1945
 

Dear all,

the Ju 87 were

„H5+red C“ (140 849?)
„H5+red F“ 140 896
„H5+red L“ 141 286

If I remember correctly there is a photo of Bf 109 "black 17" with visible Werknummer 463 141.

According to an article about SG 2 in the Jet & Prop magazine issue 4/2014, Fw. Karl Koppenhöfer of II./SG 2 transfered his Fw 190 (incl. his girlfriend) from Kummer (Hradčany) to Fürth on 08.05.1945.

Regards

Heuser

Re: Belly landed Fw 190 at Fürth May 1945
 

Hello Heuser,

Thank you for the information about the Ju 87, Bf 109 and in particular about the J&P article. I remember having seen that article but I did not buy the magazine at the end. I have ordered a copy today.

I remember a color shot of a large scrap yard at Fuerth that showed some of the aircraft captured at Fuerth. I think it was published in the J&P special issue about the end of the war 50 years ago in 1995.

I wonder if all were scrapped there and if some of them were flown by US pilots since many were fully airworthy.

Roger

Re: Belly landed Fw 190 at Fürth May 1945
 

For the Si 204 'KJ+RN' I have the WNr. 251163. Not totally sure of the accuracy for that though.

Re: Belly landed Fw 190 at Fürth May 1945
 

Hello Jim,
I don't have a Wnr. for "KJ+RN", but I have CM+OJ for Wnr. 251163....
Regards.

Eric

Re: Belly landed Fw 190 at Fürth May 1945
 

Dear all,

about Fw 190 "<<C+"

Egon Thiem, Kdr from I./SG10 up to the end is known to have used this unique "<<C+" markings in February 45. And we know that Around Furth area (ie: Ansbach and Herzogenaurach) were many I./SG10 airplanes coming from Ceske Budejovice "Cz".
So this is very probably his airplane :)

The only problem is that I m not able to see the awaited yellow nose band...
So Steve, I would like to know if you see this yellow nose band on your others photos ? Possibly painted over ?

Cheers, Olivier

Re: Belly landed Fw 190 at Fürth May 1945
 

I must apologize for my previous post far to much affirmative, so find this new one:

It seems from Hungarian sources but unpublished photos (HADmodels: http://www.aeroscale.net/modules.php...opic_id=137188 ) that Egon Thiem Kommandeur from I./SG10 had flown one Fw 190 with this same "<<C+" markings in February 1945 in Hungary.

We know that some yellow nosed Fw190 "<2, <5 and yellow8" from either I./SG2 or I./SG10 had landed at Ansbach, very near from Furth, at this same period.

And thanks to Matti Salonen ( http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=38199 ) It seems that I./SG10 kommandeur already used "green K or green C" markings on 31 December 1943.

So If the fin is really yellow and not blue/grey, there is a possibility that this "<<C+" could have been the horse from Egon Thiem, kommandeur from I./SG10...

Indeed the awaited yellow band seems missing or was it camouflaged on it's upper part? And we already have a Fw190 with a yellow nose band "<<+" kommandeur from I./SG2 or I./SG10 at München-Riem...

Easier to post at 18 pm on Sunday than 2 am in the week ;)

Cheers, Olivier

Re: Belly landed Fw 190 at Fürth May 1945
 

Hello Olivier,

I dug out my Fw 190 file and took another look at my Fürth photos. Sadly for you, there is no obvious broad yellow cowling band as noted on so many of the Fw 190s found in Southern Germany, Austria and Czechoslovakia.

However, the oil cooler ring of Fw 190 A-8 (739276) double chevron <<c+ does appear to be a solid color that MAY be of a slightly different gray value than that of the lower surface color…. but this is pure conjecture. I do think, however, that it sports a yellow rudder.

Finally, if this is actually Thiem’s aircraft (which I believe it is) it is another example of the leader of an east-front SG unit flying an Fw 190 A-8 in lieu of the expected Fw 190 F or Ju 87.

Respectfully,

Steve Sheflin

Re: Belly landed Fw 190 at Fürth May 1945
 

Thank for your greatly appreciated help Steve !

Re: Belly landed Fw 190 at Fürth May 1945
 

Hello All,

Don't know whether this helps, or otherwise. I have just been leafing through my copy of Steve's Airfoil No. 3 and note the following:

1.The panoramic shot of the wrecked aircraft is captioned "A panoramic shot which clearly details the fate of most of the planes gathered at Furth. .... In the right centre is the Gruppe Technical Officer's Fw190D-9 in dark green 82 and Gray Violet 75. To the left is Black 4+-, a D-9 with 75/76 (or 77?) upper wing splinter, along with the fuselage of a Bf109K-4 in 82/75 with a yellow fuselage band".

2. There is a photo of a radial Fw190 still with the factory codes BG+KQ. Although this photo is with the others from Furth, it does not state that the photo was taken at Furth. Steve's caption did not state this aircraft flew into Furth on May 8th, so it may have been there already.

3. There is a photo at Furth of a Bf109E. W. Nr. 3552. Steve's caption did not state that this aircraft flew into Furth on May 8th, so it may have already been there.

As I said, I hope this helps and I hope Steve does not mind me quoting his captions. :-)

maurice

Re: Belly landed Fw 190 at Fürth May 1945
 

Additional information.

It is also stated:

"In addition to the aircraft previously mentioned, the Group also accepted the surrender of three Ju87 Stukas, a Fiesler Storch and a Bu131. A second Storch wouldn't land when ordered to and was shot down".

It is also described how other Luftwaffe aircraft were shot down when they appeared to be intent on attacking the escorting US aircraft.

maurice

Re: Belly landed Fw 190 at Fürth May 1945
 

hi,
there was an article in j&p, too, (i don´t recall the issue) that some guys hunted after those relcits in the ground. they only found lots of junk, stones and other stuff. the planes were pressed together.
all the best
jim