JG 301 on 17 December 1944
 

Gentlemen,

on 17 December 1944 JG 300 was employed against an incursion of 15th USAAF four engined bombers aiming at the hydrogenation plants in Upper Silesia, Blechhammer, Odertal and Heydebreck.

JG 301 was also in action and reported claims and losses against a B-24 formation and its fighter escort of P-51s and P-38s in the Göttingen / Hannover area - but what was that ?

Can anybody enlighten me as to the identity of the formations JG 301 had been battling with over Lower Saxony ? Were they a stray part of the 15th USAAF formations or what ? As far as I can see neither the 8th USAAF nor the RAF flew any attacks with their four engined bombers over Germany on that day. So ?

As usual, any substantiated help would be gratefully appreciated.

KR

Jochen Prien

Re: JG 301 on 17 December 1944
 

Hallo Jochen,

SUNDAY, 17 DECEMBER 1944
STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force):
550+ B-17s and B-24s bomb oil refineries at Blechhammer N and S and Odertal,
Germany, and Moravska-Ostrava, Czechoslovakia; marshalling yards at Gross
Strehlitz, Germany, and Villach, Saak, Salzburg, and Wels, Austria. P-38s and
P-51s escort the bombers, fly reconnaissance, strafe the railroad running from
Rosenheim, Germany into Austria, and escort photo reconnaissance operations;
enemy fighters appear in force for the first time since Aug 44; the AAF claims
55 air victories.

Source: http://www.milhist.net/usaaf/mto44b.html

Re: JG 301 on 17 December 1944
 

Jochen,
I can break down the targets and groups as follows, with regard to the intended targets:

Blechhammer North Oil Refinery: 2nd, 97th, 99th, 301st, 483rd BGs, all B-17s

Blechhammer South Oil Refinery: 460th, 464th, 465th, 485th BGs, all B-24s

Gross Strehilitz Marshalling Yard: 454th BG, B-24s

Odertal (Synthetic) Oil Plant/Refinery: 451st, 454th, 455th, 456th, 459th, 461st, 484th BGs, all B-24s

Salzburg Marshalling Yard: 98th, 376th BGs, all B-24s

Wels Marshalling Yard: 449th, 450th BGs, all B-24s

I have not as yet attempted to capture the mission reports for 15th AF, since that is several years away in A History of the Mediterranean Air War. Best source at this point for additional information is Kevin A Mahoney: Fifteenth Air Force Against the Axis, Scarecrow Press, 2013, xx+485 pages. It gives total losses by group, but no times (take-off, over target, or landing). It has some information on the fighter escorts.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: JG 301 on 17 December 1944
 

Nick, Frank,

many thanks for your quick responses which unfortunately only underline the problem - none of the targets mentioned in your posts lies anywhere near Lower Saxony. And why would a 15th USAAF formation venture that far North ?

So, any more clues ?

Best

Jochen

Re: JG 301 on 17 December 1944
 

Gentlemen,

just a second thought - if anybody has access to the complete M.A.C.R.s they might contain information regarding losses sustained in the area where JG 301 was engaged, i.e. around Hannover / Göttingen.

KR

Jochen Prien

Re: JG 301 on 17 December 1944
 

Jochen,
As far as I can tell, 15th AF never bombed any of the major cities in Lower Saxony. The Wikipedia article on Lower Saxony lists the major cities of Lower Saxony, and none of them appear in the target index in Mahoney’s book. Göttingen is located approximately at 52° N, 9° E. 15th AF MACRs for this date give the Last Seen locations as between 46°N and 50°N, and 16°E and 18°E. Last Seen Times are from roughly 1200 to 1300, with later times being further south.

15th AF fighter claims go from 1145 to 1230, from 48°N to 50°N and 17°E to 19°E, by both P-38s and P-51s. Actual locations given are Blechhammer, Biata, Ratibor/Glewitz, Mahrisch-Ostrau, and Radosovce.

What are the times for the JG 301 claims? Do they match up with any of the above times? Are any of the JG 301 claims identifiable by aircraft serial?

The fact that JG 301 is claiming combats with P-38s and P-51s means that they have to be in combat with 15th AF, since 8th AF was not using P-38s by this time, and the RAF never did.

8th Fighter Command made no claims this date. All ETO claims are by 9th AF units, or 1st PTAF.

While American air crews were notorious for misidentifying their location over Europe/Germany, I find it hard to believe that German air crew would do the same.

So the problem is that if JG 301 is in combat with P-38s they must have been fighting 15th AF, but 15th AF never flew into Lower Saxony. It almost feels like you might be facing another 4./JG 27 situation. Or real bad German navigation.

Enjoy! (if you can)

Frank.

Re: JG 301 on 17 December 1944
 

Can rule out USAAF units that went to Odertal

Target: Odertal Oil Refinery, Germany
461st Bombardment Group (H) mission map
http://www.461st.org/Missions/images/Map_A_441217.jpg

http://www.461st.org/Missions/December1944.htm

Re: JG 301 on 17 December 1944
 

Apart Ltn Tauschner, is there any other losses sustained that day by JG 301 ??

Rémi

Re: JG 301 on 17 December 1944
 

I've had a look at MACRs that day for B-24, B-17, P-38 and P-51.

For the bombers I just checked examples from Groups that Frank didn't mention: 481st and 308th BG. The 481st B-24s went to Obertal, the 308th B-17s were in China.

P-38s: 14th FG went to Obertal; the two I looked at from 370th and 474th lost aircraft over Simmerath (in air combat) and Bitburg (aircraft missing).

P-51s: 51st FG, China; 52nd, Blechhammer; 325th, Blechhammer.

Re: JG 301 on 17 December 1944
 

Frank and Nick,

thanks once more for your Support, and of course to Kutscha and Rémi. The whole thing remains a mystery.

Best

Jochen

Re: JG 301 on 17 December 1944
 

Nick Beale,

There was no 481st BG, or Group of any kind (not listed in Maurer Maurer's AF Combat Units). I suspect this is actually the 461st BG. Could you tell me the MACR number that you found, so I can check it against my files, to make sure I didn't overlook it?

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: JG 301 on 17 December 1944
 

Hi Frank, it was MACR 10682 which I found by searching B-24 losses for 12/17/1944 at http://www.armyairforces.com/Data/MACR.aspx which gives the Group as "481". I then looked it up on Fold3.com but looking again (and zooming in closer) I see it's on the actual MACR form as 451st BG/726th BS.

Re: JG 301 on 17 December 1944
 

It''s seems to me the claims of JG 301 might not be on December 17th? Are these claims validated by original documents?

Thanks,

John

Re: JG 301 on 17 December 1944
 

Nick and John,

I have since come to the conclusion that this is most likely a case of a wrong date and that the day we are actually talking about is 15 December, when the 8t USAAF did attack targets in the Hannover / Kassel area. The only known loss was listed on the 15th, whereas on the 17th not a single loss through enemy action was reported by JG301.

But every answer brings about new questions/problems - the attacks were flown by B-17s of 1st and 3rd BD, whereas only a small screening force of 9 B-24s was dispatched, which suffered no losses as far as I can see. Reschke in his account however expressly mentions a small formation of B-24s.

So for the time being and with all neccessary reservations I take it that JG 301 was employed to take on the incursion of a bomber formation that apparently headed for its bases and encountered the B-24s of the small screening force.

Any better idea ?

KR

Jochen

Re: JG 301 on 17 December 1944
 

Don Caldwell asked the same question in this forum six years ago:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=19711

Re: JG 301 on 17 December 1944
 

In Willi Reschke book Jagdgeschwader 301/302 "Wilde Sau", he listed this date as the 17 Dec 1944 with the results:
Fw. Willy Reschke 9./JG 301 B-24 (17) and P-51 (18) south of Göttingen (confirmed by gun camera)
Obfw. Hans Todt 8./JG 301 P-47 (6) same location
Uffz. Helmut Brenner 6./JG 301 B-24 (2) between Hanover and Kassel

I've heard that some of his versions in the book might be off but I have nothing that can confirm that either.

Re: JG 301 on 17 December 1944
 

Nick,
Thanks for the MACR reference. I do in fact have that in my database. I started with the MACR list that can be found on USAFHRA microfilm A1114. Although if any one does order it, you should be sure to request the CD version, rather than the microfilm, since you can enlarge the PDF images on the CD without effort.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: JG 301 on 17 December 1944
 

Jochen,
In your original post you referenced JG 301 combats with B-24s and P-38s. Could you check your references again? I checked my copy of Reschke's book, and Nokose's comment above, indicating claims against 2 B-24s, a P-51 and a P-47. The reference to a P-47 is important, because none of the 15th AF fighter groups were using P-47s; they were either flying P-38s or P-51s. Which would imply this was a raid involving 2nd Bomb Division B-24s, and the P-47s of the 56th FG, the only 8th AF fighter group flying P-47s. And while some 9th AF fighter groups did escort 8th AF missions (especially the 354th FG), once the Bulge started I suspect the 9th AF P-47s were all involved in ground attack. And the 354th was flying P-47s at this point, and would not switch back to P-51s for a month or two.

Presumably therefore, you are looking for an 8th AF mission, not on Dec 17, involving a small force of 2nd BD B-24s (possibly lost, or hitting a target of opportunity), escorted by P-47s and P-51s, possibly involving actual losses to any of the three types. Freeman's Mighty Eighth War Diary may be a help here.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: JG 301 on 17 December 1944
 

Jochen,

sorry, but Willi Reschke in his book "Jagdgeschwader 301/302 Wilde Sau" does not mention engagements with P-38, only with B-24s and P-51s and victories in the area south of Göttingen and between Hannover and Kassel. Lt Walter Tauscher was wounded over Göttingen. There is a notion that a number of Pilots were not mentioned or did not show up by names and might be lost or wounded in combat in those days without any entry in the loss lists.

Jörg Dietsche

Re: JG 301 on 17 December 1944
 

USAAF fighter pilots made no claims on 15 December 1944 and there are only eight MACR in the ETO for this day:
15th AF lost two B-24 on a mission to Linz, Austria
9th AF lost two P-47 and one B-26 during tactical operations
8th AF lost one B-17 and one P-51 crashing in England while returning from Germany, only one P-51 was reported lost over Germany: when the engine of 44-15014 seized up after a coolant leak and the pilot had to bail out near Münster

Re: JG 301 on 17 December 1944
 

Frank, Rainer,

I'm awfully sorry for creating some confusion - you are of course right, there were no P-38s involved in this case, just the B-24s as well as P-47s and P-51s as escorts.

A 15th USAAF raid can be ruled out then both because of the presence of P-47s and of course of the combat area which was too far north for a 15th USAAF raid.

On LRG it has been suggested that this may have been a small formation of B-24s en route from England to Italy in daylight on December 17th, the unit being transferred to the 15th USAAF and heading for Brindisi; apparently they suffered no losses and it is not known whether they had a fighter escort.

So I'll have to dig further.

Joerg - Reschke's mentioning of many names that vanished for good from the ranks in those days has no direct relation to the events taking place on the 17th but seems more a general observation. But thanks anyway.

KR

Jochen Prien

Re: JG 301 on 17 December 1944
 

It is correct that a Squadron of B-24s moved from Harrington to Brindisi on 17 December 1944, this was 859th BS of the 801st BG/492nd BG. However, they were "Carpetbaggers" - aircraft used to drop supplies and agents on special operations at night, which are well documented on the website http://www.801492.org

In my opinion it is very unlikely that the transfer route of such specialized crews and aircraft took them over Germany in daylight.

Re: JG 301 on 17 December 1944
 

Thought I would drop this in and see what you think

On the 16th December 3 Group sent 108 Lancasters to Siegen.

II/JG2 definitely made contact as there are two claims by Uffz Bollwerk and Lt Marsfelde

Before you dismiss this out of hand on that mission the formation was escorted by 36 P-38s of 367th FG - this was unusual

115 Sqn ORB records seeing engagement between Me109s and P-38s. A Lanc of theirs was lost to fighters LL944 19km E of Bonn

Just a day out, make of it what you will

Regards

Martin