Identity Liberator loss near Salcioara on 5 April 1944?
 

Dear all,

Who could help me in identifying the matching Liberator loss to the following claim on the 5 April 1944 Ploesti raid:

Oblt. Karl Furchmann: 1 11./NJG6 B-24 near Salcioara (SM 1): 4.600 m. 15.27

Cheers and thanks, Theo

Re: Identity Liberator loss near Salcioara on 5 April 1944?
 

Theo

On the date in question 9 Libs were lost by 15th AF and few more Forts . Salcioara
is NW of Chisinau way off course for any of the 15th AF bombers unless we talk
about Salcioara NW of Bucharest . If the last applies then out of the 9 Libs this
may be the aircraft of Lt.Lael recepient of DSC .

Single thing that does not add up are the Night Fighters , coze in '44 they were active
mainly at night eventhough the Libs were in range of these fighters. Slightly to the
NE of Lael's Lib , Lt Marpe's & Lt.Edwards aircrafts were next Luftwaffe's ftrs victims .

In fact few more Lib's on Ploesti and Bucharest perimeters were attacked by
fighters at least 63 ME-109's along with Romanian IAR-80's which also engaged their escorts.

At this point in time with no other details available , I may not be able to help further .

Alex K

Re: Identity Liberator loss near Salcioara on 5 April 1944?
 

Hello Alex,

Thanks for these details -I believe that Salcioara NW of Bucharest is the place mentioned in the German Abschussmeldung. On 5.4.44, IV./NJG6 employed eight Bf110s from Otopeni (near Bucharest) against the Ploesti raid.

Do you have the serial number/BS/BG details of the Liberator flown by Lt.Lael, and did this B-24 in fact crash at Salcioara?

Cheers, Theo

Re: Identity Liberator loss near Salcioara on 5 April 1944?
 

Theo

Lael flew 42-78199 and yes the IV./NJG6 were based at that time at Otopeni, At least 4 Libs gone down near NW and SW of Salcioara, that's all I know . Rest you need to research yourself

Re: Identity Liberator loss near Salcioara on 5 April 1944?
 

Hi Theo

The details for this claim are slighty different in the lists of Tony Wood:
Oblt. Karl Furchmann 12./NJG 6 B-17 SM-1 bei Sâlcioara: 4.600 m 15.27 Film C.2032/I Anerk: Nr.3

Anyway, the grid mentioned refers to trapez SM-1, presumably in grid 24 Ost N, where Salcioara in Dambovita County, Romania is located.

5 April 1944, 15th AF: 136 B-24s (98BG, 376BG, 449BG, 450BG, 451 BG), followed by 94 B-17s (2BG, 97BG, 99BG, 301BG) bomb the marshalling yards at Ploesti, Romania. 10 B-24s and 3 B-17s are lost to fighters and flak:
MACR4080 B-24H-1-FO 42-7720 451BG/727BS (Stenning) at 1420 attacked by fighters, crew later bailed out over Moreni, Romania
MACR4081 B-24H-5-CF 42-64442 451BG/727BS (Brownell) at 1420 attacked by Fw190s, crew bailed out over Slatina, Romania
MACR3951 B-24G-10-NT 42-78185 450BG/720BS (Marpe) at 1425 attacked by fighters, crashed near Vacaresti, southeast of Targoviste, Romania
MACR3965 B-24H-20-FO 42-94950 450BG/720BS (Wagner) at 1425 attacked by Me109s, crew bailed out over Topoloveni, east of Pitesti, Romania
MACR3885 B-24J-85-CO 42-100252 450BG/722BS (Beene) at 1425 attacked by fighters, bombed target but left formation at 1450 near Baltita, Romania to crash land
MACR3960 B-24G-10-NT 42-78199 450BG/723BS (Lael) at 1426 attacked by fighters, crashed at Calinesti, east of Pitesti, Romania
MACR4082 B-24H-5-FO 42-52081 451BG/727BS (Williams) at 1427 attacked by fighters, crashed at Calinesti, east of Pitesti, Romania
MACR4032 B-24H-5-FO 42-52103 451BG/727BS (McAllister) at 1435 attacked by fighters, crew bailed out over Ocnita, northeast of Targoviste, Romania
MACR3918 B-24H-15-FO 42-52474 451BG/724BS (Stone) hit by flak during target run, at 1441 crew bailed out after dropping bombs on target
MACR3953 B-24H-15-DT 41-28757 450BG/720BS (Edwards) attacked by fighters, bombed target but left formation at 1450 near Gaesti, Romania
MACR3966 B-17F-35-VE 42-5938 97BG/414BS (Howard) at 1430 left formation over Turnu Severin, Romania with feathered #1 engine, later crashed near Zajecar, Serbia
MACR3882 B-17G-5-BO 42-31182 301BG/419BS (Coppedge) at 1530 last seen under attack by six fighters and later crashed north of Plovdiv, Bulgaria
MACR3695 B-17G-30-DL 42-38207 99BG/346BS (Currie) damaged by flak on first mission, crashed near Caracal, Romania

Judging from the time of Karl Furchmann's claim he did not attack the B-24s which were heavily engaged by enemy fighters for 40 minutes before dropping their bombs at 1437. He flew probably one of the few fighters that engaged the B-17s which attacked the same target shortly thereafter and only encountered light fighter opposition.

Re: Identity Liberator loss near Salcioara on 5 April 1944?
 

Re: Identity Liberator loss near Salcioara on 5 April 1944?
 

Tony Wood is the person who placed the German Luftwaffe Abschuss list on the web.

Re: Identity Liberator loss near Salcioara on 5 April 1944?
 

Re: Identity Liberator loss near Salcioara on 5 April 1944?
 

Kaki / Kutscha thanks for the update, I saw the stuff in the past and I forgot
who the publisher was and for a good reason , as far as my area of research
is concerned the stuff is not accurate and some events contain basic errors as
into the rest of his stuff, I can't speak .

It's good starter kit but not at all a tool for historical accuracy. Citting an other example
Currie acft wreckage fell NNE of Mirosi ( 10-26 Km ) and not Caracal , the distance between
both is not huge but not that close either . All this may apply to the rest of the
claims posted in there including those of Luftwaffe / AAR , Oblt Furchmann's and sofort.

Suggest reading Mr Roba's publications one of which covers German day & night
fighters over Romania .


BR
Alex

Re: Identity Liberator loss near Salcioara on 5 April 1944?
 

I'm aware of the limited accuracy of the lists Tony Wood published, but they give a good starting point for further research. I just wonder why Furchmann's claim is listed there as B-17 while Theo states that it was for a B-24.

The rest of the information is my own research based on primary USAAF sources. This of course means that the locations given are those mentioned in the MACR which can differ from the actual crash place of the aircraft itself - a bomber left by its crew could fly a considerable distance before crashing.

The crash places of 42-78199 and 42-52081 are confirmed by the Romanian Red Cross as Calinesti in their MACR. The only MACR I could not locate yet was the MACR for Currie's B-17, thanks to Alex we now know that the crew bailed out near Mirosi. The question is if there are Romanian sources that contain the actual crash places and possibly crash times of the listed aircraft.

Re: Identity Liberator loss near Salcioara on 5 April 1944?
 

Rainer

Also MACR's are not a final tool for historical accuracy, including Romanian
Police , Red Cross etc. In due course of the time these reports and claims
proven as misleading . Best source of information are German Luftwaffe
archives in Freiburg i.B. place I visited numerous times, local Romanian
sources and the crew members themselves .

BR

Alex

Re: Identity Liberator loss near Salcioara on 5 April 1944?
 

Many thanks chaps for your elaborate replies -IV./NJG6 reported three B-24 Abschüsse on 5.4.44, all of which were officially anerkannt (confirmed) as full victories on 15 August 1944. The other two claims were (alas no locations known):


Ofw. Peter Tiedemann: 1 10./NJG6 B-24 Rumania 13.56
Oblt. Hans Meyer: 1 Stab IV./NJG6 B-24 Rumania 14.08


Cheers, Theo

Re: Identity Liberator loss near Salcioara on 5 April 1944?
 

Here are some short episodes of Lt.Stenning's last moments and rest of those whom we mentioned above. Please note the episodes cite continous JG51 and ARR attacks folowed by claims rather NJG 6 . Lots of everybody saying something else. Theo you welcome on both posts but again I wouldn't worry too much about these Net records you will be consuming your time with misleading info

BR
Alex K

Re: Identity Liberator loss near Salcioara on 5 April 1944?
 

Good morning !

Could it be possible, that different local times that day (15th AF = Italian time; German Reports + Romanian reports = Romanian time) confuse the report summaries evaluation of this day ?.

Was Italian time that day equal to Romanian time ?

Best wishes !

Horst Weber

Re: Identity Liberator loss near Salcioara on 5 April 1944?
 

Theo

Historical errors examples.

Stenning crew was manned by 10 and not 8 crew members,according various books
was manned by 9 and 8 , according some Romanian sources all crew were held POW .

Check latest crew status by the crew .

Alex K

Re: Identity Liberator loss near Salcioara on 5 April 1944?
 

Adding to the confusion :

Oblt. Hans Meyer: 1 Stab IV./NJG6 B-24 Rumania 14.08
...Consolidated "Liberator" am 4.4.44 14.08 Uhr...

The claimant for the bomber near Salcioara is also recorded as Karl Fleischmann.
12./NJG 6 was a romanian unit.

Count only the B-24s claimed by III./JG 77 on 4 & 5 APR 1944.

Re: Identity Liberator loss near Salcioara on 5 April 1944?
 

According to MACR4080 the crew of 42-7720 was on 5 April 1944:
Pilot 1Lt Stenning, William C. O-672475 KIA (seriously injured in combat, failed to leave plane)
Co-Pilot 2Lt Robbins, William S. O-743285 POW
Navigator 1Lt Marioles, Peter S. O-801185 POW
Bombardier TSgt Blascke, Robert R. O-2043677 POW
Engineer/Top Turret Gunner SSgt Carroll, Wylie C. 14124042 KIA (failed to leave plane, body found near wreckage)
Ball Turret Gunner SSgt Graham, Robert 32337538 POW
Right Waist Gunner SSgt Bieman, Donald J. 19138322 KIA (seriously injured in combat, did not survive bailing out with a damaged chute)
Left Waist Gunner SSgt Bennett, James M. 15333299 POW
Radio Operator/Gunner TSgt Koenigseker, Aaron L. 15105702 POW
Tail Gunner SSgt Burge, Arthur P. 14104597 POW/DOW (seriously injured in combat, died of gangrene in a hospital at Bucharest on 5 July 1944)

Re: Identity Liberator loss near Salcioara on 5 April 1944?
 

I stand corrected: on re-checking the official OKL/RLM confirmed Abschuss listings, I noted that the 10./NJG6 claim at 13.56 hrs and the 11./NJG6 claim at 14.08 hrs indeed occurred on the 4th April 1944. Both claims were officially confirmed as full victories on 15 August 1944 -which leaves the question open as to which bomber losses could possibly be matched against these two confirmed Liberator victories on the 4th of April 1944.

And re. the right spelling of the Nachtjäger who claimed on 5 April 1944 -I also stand corrected (the microfilm entries of individual names are often hard to decipher is my only excuse): the name spells 'Fleischmann' and not 'Furchmann'. Fleischmann, who had previously served with 2./NJG3 and had achieved one confirmed night victory with this Staffel, was KIA on 24-25.12.44 at Langebach near Marienwald/Westerwald, shot down by 157 Sqn Mosquito MM676 (S/Ldr. J.G. Benson & F/Lt. L. Brandon)

Thanks UDF 00 for your pointers -you've not added to the confusion but made the issue more clear now!

Cheers, Theo

Re: Identity Liberator loss near Salcioara on 5 April 1944?
 

@Horst Weber

The claim times made by the other Luftwaffe units on that day are according to the list of Tony Wood:
JG 51 claimed 7 B-24s from 1403 to 1431hrs
JG 77 claimed 13 (or 16?) B-24s from 1422 to 1500hrs
JG 301 claimed 4 B-24s from 1435 to 1505hrs and 1 B-17 at 1546hrs
JG 302 claimed 1 P-51 at 1455hrs
NJG 6 claimed 1 B-17 at 1527hrs

Does anyone know how many claims were made by the Romanian Air Force?

Re: Identity Liberator loss near Salcioara on 5 April 1944?
 

http://www.worldwar2.ro/arr/?article=439
http://www.worldwar2.ro/arr/?article=443
http://www.worldwar2.ro/arr/?article=445
Info for the 4 April and the following day.

Re: Identity Liberator loss near Salcioara on 5 April 1944?
 

Thanks for that -much appreciated! Cheers, Theo

Re: Identity Liberator loss near Salcioara on 5 April 1944?
 

Theo, I don't know what the Luftwaffe and Romanians and in particular those who published the stuff on the Net recorded, fact is 15th AF lost 13 bombers ( Libs ) on that day anything else is pure nonsense. And an other thing and just for the record , Peter Pluim's Lib ( according his son ) was mistakenly brought down by one of the escorts or one of the Libs on the formation testing their guns shortly prior the target.

Entire Pluim's crew successfully bailed out and a good reason for them to spend vacations in Romania till Aug 31,44 then rotated to the States.

Alex K

PS : And just to make the whole mess happier 15th AF claimed on that day 44 German and Romanian fighters ,
something which also does not add up in any way